Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

The organ in that video (starting at about 5 minutes in) is the most usable I've heard on it, it sounds like that would be fine for lots of stuff. No overdrive in that demo, but maybe that's the key. ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

Has the market for full stops, drive engaged, leslie on fast become that small?   

 

Yes, I agree.  A hands on tweakable organ and sample synth on what's essentially a budget stage piano (with very nice sounding CFX and Rhodes).  

[AnotherScott]

Earlier in the thread, some of us were speculating that, even though it's a very different kind of board, it could essentially be taking the place of the MX in the Yamaha lineup, i.e. as their entry level cover-all-the-bases gigging board. In the Tech Talk webcast, Blake answered a question saying, no, it was not an MX replacement, they are very different boards. I took that with some grain of salt, since companies may not be eager to tell you X will eventually be replacing Y if they still have lots of Y around that needs to be sold. But I was looking at the manual again, and I think it's interesting that, in the section giving an example of how to control some of the CK sounds from an external board, the example they showed was using the MX88 used as a hammer board to trigger the sounds in a CK61. If they are referencing it in the manual, that implies to me that the MX may indeed be sticking around a good while yet. On one hand, I can see why they'd pick the MX88... it is their least expensive 88 with a 5-pin MIDI Out. But they really could have illustrated the concept without naming any board in particular.

 

[HammondDave]

40 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The organ in that video (starting at about 5 minutes in) is the most usable I've heard on it, it sounds like that would be fine for lots of stuff. No overdrive in that demo, but maybe that's the key. 😉

Are you kidding me? Horrible C/V and that choppy Leslie sim?  Terrible acceleration (instant?). And poor key click…  Oy. Overdrive or not, you can’t hide these flaws. 

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

Are you kidding me? Horrible C/V and that choppy Leslie sim?  Terrible acceleration (instant?). And poor key click…  Oy. Overdrive or not, you can’t hide these flaws. 

I'm not saying it's top tier by any means, and that demo is hardly exhaustive, but at least I finally heard some usable stuff there. It's never going to be the board of choice for when organ is mission-critical. But at its price ($1k for the 61), I don't think it's going to be embarrassing itself in the company of the Numa Compact 2X, Roland VR-09B, and Kurzweil SP6-7 (the other "cover all the bases" boards in its price range that likewise do some semblance of clonewheel emulation). If you need something better and/or can afford to move up in price, they have the YC61. But I understand that your bar for usability may be higher than mine. As I mentioned elsewhere, I often use rompler sounds, so my bar is clearly lower. ;-)

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

Are you kidding me? Horrible C/V and that choppy Leslie sim?  Terrible acceleration (instant?). And poor key click…  Oy. Overdrive or not, you can’t hide these flaws. 

 

And in your defense, OTOH, I think the Hammond emulation on this one (assuming that's indeed what it's supposed to be) sounds awful.

 

On 3/15/2023 at 4:29 PM, FuzzyPants said:

 

 

So I think it may be a matter of learning its limitations, and then being aware of what it can do passably (admittedly, also subjective) and where it falls farther short, and then assembling your sounds accordingly.

[To B3]

Anyone knows if it´s high trigger on Organ mode?

 

Could not find in the manual, but is the rotary sim editable in any way?

 

 

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, To B3 said:

Anyone knows if it´s high trigger on Organ mode?

 

I think it's safe to assume it does not. There's no mention in the manual, and AFAIK, no Yamaha has ever had high trigger (people have complained about it not being available on the YC61).

 

23 minutes ago, To B3 said:

Could not find in the manual, but is the rotary sim editable in any way?

 

You didn't miss anything, there's nothing in the manual about it, so again, I'd assume not, unless they really screwed up in editing the manual. Interesting point, though, that even the VR-09 does have rotary effect editing functions.

[JohnH]

I didn't realize until yesterday this has onboard speakers. There's not been a keyboard with speakers like this from the synth dept, those are always from the PKB side or digital pianos. The exception on the pro side was the CP300, but this is quite different.

[pjd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Re: Editing rotary settings

You didn't miss anything, there's nothing in the manual about it, so again, I'd assume not, unless they really screwed up in editing the manual. Interesting point, though, that even the VR-09 does have rotary effect editing functions.

 

This was the first thing I searched for in the manual. The only rotary settings that I found (page 43):

 

"Simple rotary speaker effect. Turn the [DEPTH] knob to adjust the volume and distortion level, and the [RATE] knob to adjust the rotation speed."

 

The table on page 43 indicates that the rotary speaker effect is MONO. Even the name, "Simple Rotary," gives me serious pause. I've used and dealt with Yamaha's rotary speaker algorithms on their synths and arrangers. "Simple rotary" implies some kind of utterly simplistic beast.

 

Frankly, I absolutely detest the high rotary speed setting on Reface YC. I no longer use it. The ramp up and ramp down are too fast. None of this is adjustable. I do play the YC -- a lot -- so I cared deeply.

 

Yamaha consistently makes the default speeds too fast. Arranger, synth, whatever. I've spoken about this with Yamaha marketing. Even they know it. Yamaha's development engineers are stubborn to the point of idiocy. I hate to make a statement like that...  😒

 

As far as I'm concerned, the inability to tweak rotary parameters on an instrument which highlights organ is unacceptable and is a deal-breaker.

 

Sorry to be so freakin' negative -- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

33 minutes ago, pjd said:

 

This was the first thing I searched for in the manual. The only rotary settings that I found (page 43):

 

"Simple rotary speaker effect. Turn the [DEPTH] knob to adjust the volume and distortion level, and the [RATE] knob to adjust the rotation speed."

 

Ah, yes, the "other" rotary effect. I was only thinking of Rotary A and Rotary B (whose equivalent on the YC61 have 13 tweakable parameters, but not on the CK). There's a third rotary effect in the "insert effect" section, that's the one you're talking about. That one is not switchable with the rotary fast/slow button, which only works with the Rotary A and B options in the Drive section, at least if it's implemented the way it is on the YC61. Officially, it is a "lesser" effect, I think there more for when you want to put the sounds of other things through a rotary, not organ. Though prior to Yamaha's implementation of the improved Leslie effect on the YC61, I remember Woody's video where he said he liked that one better than the two "real" Leslie effects in the board!

 

 

33 minutes ago, pjd said:

The table on page 43 indicates that the rotary speaker effect is MONO.

 

Yes, same as on the YC61. But on the YC61, the other two (the "main" rotary effects) are switchable for mono or stereo. That setting is missing on the CK. They're probably stereo, though, since the default in the YC61 for this setting was stereo.

 

Back on the topic of the FSB action of the 61, Yamaha's site says, "this action features a heavier initial key resistance" - that's interesting. It's an unusual trait in a semi-weighted board, but it happens to also describe the action of the YC61. It's a semi-weighted but kind of feels like it has a bit of escapement. I wonder if this is a non-waterfall variant of that design. That would not be a bad thing at all, I think that's an above average action for piano playing, as semi-weighteds go. As for the 88 action, as I mentioned in another thread, I've had mixed experiences with the GHS, liking some much more than others, for who knows what reason. But this particular GHS has speakers, which due to the vibrations you can feel, seem to make any hammer action feel better, so I'm optimistic that this may have one of the "better" feeling GHS actions. Hoping for the best, as usual. If they made a 7x version, I'd be ordering one. As it is, I'm still seriously considering it, and and have changed from leaning toward the 61 to leaning toward the 88.

[GeorgeRaindog]

found a tutorial videos playlist

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLS-Ia4lCojty-uF6apNwkAZkcEwbVt4jQ

 

(through FAQ section https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/ck/faq.html )

 

[Dockeys]

That’s a pretty comprehensive list. Always useful to have a quick YouTube video example. They seem well prepped for lots of expectant sales with this unit. 

[AnotherScott]

Correcting my chart from earlier in the thread... Yes, the CK lets you use any two insert effects in series... but I missed that, overall, the YC actually actually has even more effects capability than the CK.

 

I'll also copy something from a post elsewhere that might interest people following this thread as well...

 

Here's some of the things the CK has that the YC does not:
... pipe organs

... the Acetone and Yamaha Combo organ models from the Reface YC
... the ability to combine any three sounds (on the YC, one of the three sounds must be an organ)
... ability to save master EQ to a Live Set
... more CFX piano variations
... more sounds overall
... battery operation
... speakers
... effects for the audio input
... audio playback from USB stick
... bluetooth audio in

... {ETA} 2 split points for the internal sounds, instead of 1 (so each of the 3 sounds can have entirely different key ranges)

And here are some of the things the YC has that the CK does not:
... the better tonewheel organ emulation (instead of the one from the Reface)
... presumably the better rotary effect as well, and definitely a much more adjustable one
... more different piano models (C7, Nashville C3)
... way more different Rhodes models
... metal build
... internal power supply
... endless encoders with LEDs so controls indicate (and are immediately properly adjustable from) their current positions
... higher quality actions
... FM sound generation for the FM sounds, plus ability to create your own "FM organ" synth sounds
... a 73-key version
... balanced outs (on 73 and 88)
... full travel drawbars, with multi-manual LED indicators
... 4 amp simulations (in addition to rotary)
... generally more effects capability (i.e. a third insert effect that can be added to the main pair on the non-organ sounds)

I may not have every detail right there, and I'm sure I've missed things, but I think that's probably pretty close to a list of the major feature differences. Of course, there are also operational/design differences, it has a very different layout.

As a general performance board, there's a lot to like about the CK. The YC is definitely stronger for organ and Rhodes, and comes in a more premium package.

[Docbop]

I see it as the CK is a keyboard aim'd at the decent student, DIY tune maker, basic cocktail party, bedroom jam, keyboard, more features than previous keyboards aimed at that market can do.   Calling it a semi-pro board is quite a stretch in my opinion.   I see it as alternative to the Korg SK1.    

 

I read these posts and it's people see semi-pro tossed around and try to compared it to full on stage pianos for people in bands.  To me that's comparing fresh squeezed orange juice to canned OJ  concentrate.  They might look the same, but which one are you going to bring to your hot date on sunday morning not a cup of instant coffee and some Donald Duck OJ.    

[Mighty Motif Max]

Interesting board! My thought is that this is the perfect board for something like a campus ministry that has to be very mobile, has limited funds, and basically wants good pianos with a decent action, good pads with filter control, and occasionally some EP's, organs, and various other sounds (usually a good string section). Front-panel EQ is a great bonus. I was considering picking up a Juno DS88 to donate to replace the old Casio CDP 220 that is currently in use at the ministry I volunteer at, but the CK88 seems like an even better option. Honestly it could fill a LOT of the general-purpose gigging board world - think singer-songwriters, solo performers, pop/rock original bands, basic cover bands. Interestingly enough I see it as intruding on the Nord Stage territory a smidge as well, more so than the YC/CP lines.

 

If Yamaha wanted to make this one step better, give us the C7 sample from the CP/YC lines too!

[Fleer]

Are we sure about the better action on the YC61 compared to the CK61?

There’s criticism on the YC61 action after some use. And the FSB action on the CK61 stems from some well served higher end arranger boards. 

[Moonglow]

Just finished perusing the manual. Nifty keyboard, I'm intrigued. More overall sounds and more extensive MIDI controller functions than anticipated. I’m not an organist, all I need are a few presets. I recall digging the YC Reface when it came out, but then the main Yamaha comparisons were their rompler (e.g., Motif) organs. I've always liked the vintage YC transistor organs (e.g., YC-30). External speakers are a really nice bonus. Interested in seeing how this thing feels under my fingers. 

[AnotherScott]

11 hours ago, Docbop said:

I see it as the CK is a keyboard aim'd at the decent student, DIY tune maker, basic cocktail party, bedroom jam, keyboard, more features than previous keyboards aimed at that market can do.   Calling it a semi-pro board is quite a stretch in my opinion.   I see it as alternative to the Korg SK1.   

 

Korg SK1? I don't think there is such a thing, but I'm not sure what similarly named board you might be thinking of.

 

11 hours ago, Docbop said:

I read these posts and it's people see semi-pro tossed around and try to compared it to full on stage pianos for people in bands.  To me that's comparing fresh squeezed orange juice to canned OJ  concentrate.  They might look the same, but which one are you going to bring to your hot date on sunday morning not a cup of instant coffee and some Donald Duck OJ.    

 

It doesn't have the "pro" build you'd want if you've got roadies tossing things into trucks, or you're providing backline, where things need to be able to take a lot of abuse. But for people brining their own gear to gigs, I don't really see a distinction, unless you're simply going to say that anything without a metal build and internal power supply is not suitable even for the "semi" pro. Short of that, I think it is as useful as a "semi-pro" board as, say, a Roland RD88/DS/Fantom-0, a Yamaha MX/MODX, a Kurz PC4 series. (But maybe you similarly wouldn't find those suitable either.)

 

8 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I was considering picking up a Juno DS88 to donate to replace the old Casio CDP 220 that is currently in use at the ministry I volunteer at, but the CK88 seems like an even better option.

 

Interesting trade-off, if something's going to be put in a place where numerous people may be playing it. If someone wants to just turn it on, hit a button labeled with a sound, and be playing that sound, either can probably do that (though the CK has an advantage even there, because of the internal speakers). But the DS may be initially less intimidating, i.e. the Yamaha may "look" scarier with all those controls. But if some of the players want to take things a little further, like alter a sound, layer sounds, operate organ drawbars (which I would expect some church folk are going to know how to do), the CK will quickly have more appeal. I think it will be easier for a novice to tinker with. For anything that gets beyond the very simple, I think the Roland is going to require more background/experience with these things and/or will prompt more diving into a manual. For most people, if they want to go beyond the most basic pick-a-sound-and-play it, I think the CK will be more quickly rewarding, and fun. Which can also be a factor if there will be kids using it, too. Of course, then again, kids can figure anything out. ;-) But I still think the CK will give them more of the fun factor. "Look what happens when I turn this knob" is always more fun than figuring out how to do things from menus. It's also an approach that leads to more discovery/experimentation (whereas with menus, you first decide what you want to do, and then go about trying to figure out how to make it do it.)

 

8 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Interestingly enough I see it as intruding on the Nord Stage territory a smidge as well, more so than the YC/CP lines.

 

Hmmm... I'd say the YC probably still comes closer to the NS3 than the CK does. If you look at my list of CK/YC differences above, I think most of the things the CK has that the YC does not are also things the Stage doesn't have, and most of the things the YC has that the CK does not are things the NS3 also has. But yes, I also see how the CK can still,  to a good extent, be seen as a bit of a poor man's Stage.

 

(ETA: In terms of operational ergonomics, one way the CK comes closer to Stage, though, is in having 4 dedicated knobs for attack, decay, cutoff, resonance, which is simpler and more direct than the YC's single knob, button, and menu options for its filter/envelope controls.)

 

2 hours ago, Fleer said:

Are we sure about the better action on the YC61 compared to the CK61?

There’s criticism on the YC61 action after some use. And the FSB action on the CK61 stems from some well served higher end arranger boards. 

 

Good point. From an organ perspective, the YC61 has the advantage of waterfall shape, but I'm not sure what other differences there may be that may make one more desirable for someone than the other.

 

One more thing I'm wondering about, that maybe someone who has played both a YC and a Reface YC could answer... How do the Vox and Farfisa emulations compare? (They're sample-based in the Reface, FM-based in the YC.)

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

12 hours ago, Docbop said:

I see it as the CK is a keyboard aim'd at the decent student, DIY tune maker, basic cocktail party, bedroom jam, keyboard, more features than previous keyboards aimed at that market can do.   Calling it a semi-pro board is quite a stretch in my opinion.   I see it as alternative to the Korg SK1.   

 

Korg SK1? I don't think there is such a thing, but I'm not sure what similarly named board you might be thinking of.

 

Korg SV1

[AnotherScott]

34 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Korg SV1

 

Then I don't get this analogy, saying it would be a stretch to call the CK even a semi-pro board, and putting in the same category an SV1? Then you'd be saying that the SV1 is itself not only not a pro level board, but also one where it would be a stretch to even call it a semi-pro board? Maybe I'm missing your point, since I consider the SV1 absolutely a pro level board. 

[ewall08530]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Hmmm... I'd say the YC probably still comes closer to the NS3 than the CK does. If you look at my list of CK/YC differences above, I think most of the things the CK has that the YC does not are also things the Stage doesn't have, and most of the things the YC has that the CK does not are things the NS3 also has. But yes, I also see how the CK can still,  to a good extent, be seen as a bit of a poor man's Stage.

 

(ETA: In terms of operational ergonomics, one way the CK comes closer to Stage, though, is in having 4 dedicated knobs for attack, decay, cutoff, resonance, which is simpler and more direct than the YC's single knob, button, and menu options for its filter/envelope controls.)

 

 

 

This is exactly why I’m looking at the CK-61.  I love my Stage 3 Compact as my all in one board but lately I’ve been longing to play piano on weighted keys (Casio PX S-7000) but I’d rather have a real light 61 key with good enough organ, synth and strings than haul around the Nord.  I should explain that I’m 72, playing solo piano gigs 80% of the time. The CK-61 also seems to have some real nice acoustic pianos, EP’s and might make my Casio CT S-1 expendable.   

[stoken6]

3 hours ago, Docbop said:

 

Korg SV1

Very different. The SV1 competes (quite accurately) with the CP73/88 in Yamaha's portfolio. This CK range is Yamaha's take on the Roland VR09, Numa Compact 2 and similar.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

It looks like you can get a music stand for the 88, but based on the auto-translate caption, probably not the 61... check this video at 48:30

 

 

I never used to care about stands, but now find them useful for an iPad, if a keyboard is being used as a top or only.

 

43 minutes ago, ewall08530 said:

The CK-61 also seems to have some real nice acoustic pianos, EP’s and might make my Casio CT S-1 expendable.   

 

CK vs. Casio is an interesting comparison which i've alluded to earlier in the thread as well. As impressed as I am with the CT-S500, the CK61 looks to out-do it in lots of ways (as it should for the price difference), but there are still some tricks the Casio can do that the Yamaha can't. So far, I've come up with the keytar pegs, the drums and accompaniment features (though I doubt I'd use the latter), the ability to pan sounds to one side or the other (if the sounds are mono), an easier ability to shift the octave of just one of your multiple sounds while playing (it looks like that might be a 2-hand operation on the Yamaha), and getting back to the first thing I said in this post, it comes with a music stand. (The action difference between the two is still a question mark, as is the volume/fullness of the speakers.)

 

So then I shifted and started thinking that, as opposed to looking at a CK as a possible sometimes-replacement for the CT-S500, actually, the place the CK might make the most sense for me would be as an 88 solo/bottom board, especially once I realized that, as a bottom, I wouldn't necessarily need to keep its whole panel exposed, that as mentioned earlier, I would also have the option of using it the way I use my current Privia slab, keeping the keys of my two boards quite close to each other. In that mode, I'd be doing nothing but calling up presets, but that's all I do on the Privia that's in that position anyway. But I'd have the option of doing more than that when I want to, and have its numerous other advantages (in sounds, split/layers, MIDI controller functions, drawbar sliders, audio interface, etc.). IOW, because my old Privia--whose action I really like--is so limited in other ways, as opposed to being full of trade-offs, this would be an upgrade all around... the question really coming down to whether I end up liking the action about as much.  (The other bottom I use a lot is the Kurzweil PC4-7, which is great and weighs a lot less... but I can't keep my boards close if used as a bottom, and it has no speakers if used as a solo, so there are trade-offs there to consider as well.)

[AnotherScott]

Here's a video that I like... One of the few demos being done on the 61 rather than the 88...

 

 

What I really like is the ease with which he seems to be getting expressivity out of the pianos in the first two demos, since the big knock on non-hammer actions is the relative difficulty of playing piano with appropriate dynamics. This encourages me about the quality of the 61. (And again makes me disappointed that there's no 73 C-to-C with this action, which would probably be just what I want.)

 

I don't happy to like the two Rhodes demos at all. But I've heard better CK Rhodes demos, so I know it's capable of something closer to what I like. I'll be curious to compare the Rhodes on the CK88 to the CP/YC 73 versions, if I can get my fingers on them...

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Here's a video that I like... One of the few demos being done on the 61 rather than the 88...

 

 

What I really like is the ease with which he seems to be getting expressivity out of the pianos in the first two demos, since the big knock on non-hammer actions is the relative difficulty of playing piano with appropriate dynamics. This encourages me about the quality of the 61. (And again makes me disappointed that there's no 73 C-to-C with this action, which would probably be just what I want.)

 

I don't happy to like the two Rhodes demos at all. But I've heard better CK Rhodes demos, so I know it's capable of something closer to what I like. I'll be curious to compare the Rhodes on the CK88 to the CP/YC 73 versions, if I can get my fingers on them...

Even if they weren’t going to do a C-C 73k.  A 76k offering would have been nice.  

[stoken6]

That 61 demo that Scott posted was very nice indeed - lovely pianos, as you would expect form Yamaha. And yes, the 88 is an interesting alternative to Casio's PX5 as a "what controller can I use under my upper-tier Kronos/Kurzweil/Nord/whatever" - although a bit pricier.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

[LarsHarner2]

I am going to preorder a 61 key; I was looking for something lighter to carry around to my songwriting events and like the internal speakers and variety of sounds.

 

I was going to get a Korg Liano but they ran out and was considering the Numa Compact 2X.

[AnotherScott]

Here's an interesting shot of the CK88... it looks like that cutaway in the center of the rear panel may help make it easier to carry.