Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[Fleer]

So these could actually be launched on March 14th at 1:00 PST. And they were already seen at a Mexican webstore at prices close to the original MODX series. Well, well, pretty stoked.

[CyberGene]

6 minutes ago, Fleer said:

And they were already seen at a Mexican webstore

So, what are they, controllers, stage pianos, synths, something else?

 

P.S. OK, found some links on some forums, the Mexican site describes them as "Stage Synthesizers". Since the price is MODX level, I think my initial prediction that they are CP/YC based with AN-X added might be wrong. I think they are most probably the replacement for the aging MX-keyboards. Probably a lightweight MODX with no deep control and no touch screen, just presets that you can split/layer. I wonder if they will also include the AN-X technology but I doubt an entry-level keyboards like that would include a VA that is missing in the MODX and Montage. And I believe they reserved the AN-X for a new Montage.

[zephonic]

48 minutes ago, Fleer said:

So these could actually be launched on March 14th at 1:00 PST. And they were already seen at a Mexican webstore at prices close to the original MODX series. Well, well, pretty stoked.

 

link?

 

If it's like an S90, I'd consider replacing the MODX8.

 

[davinwv]

I was really hoping for controllers - oh well.

[pjd]

Can’t find the thread at Yamaha Synth anymore. Too close to home?

 

— pj

 

[Fleer]

Paul has a good overview, as always:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net

[ElmerJFudd]

Hmmm... NWX, GH or GHS.   

 

"This year, Yamaha will introduce breakthrough products at the show across multiple musical categories, including piano, synthesizer, winds, acoustic guitar, drums and percussion, and professional audio."

 

https://yamahamusicians.com/yamaha-to-unveil-new-breakthrough-products-at-the-namm-show/

[ElmerJFudd]

Site admin has seen it.  We’ll all know tomorrow.  The CK is geared toward live performance in a  “stage piano” format. It does have sounds - but no “new” sound engine.  
 

[CyberGene]

As we already discussed: these are most probably the replacement for the MX-keyboards. Something like a MODX "light": same engine, all the sounds and presets but no deep editing, probably no touch screen either. Easier to make splits and layers, considering the MODX requires a PHD. And of course no AN-X, or Montage/MODX users would feel screwed otherwise. Basically a nice lightweight, portable rompler with all the latest sounds. I'm not even sure it will include the FM-X engine. Or maybe a lesser one as in the reface DX, a 4-operator engine.

[ElmerJFudd]

40 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

As we already discussed: these are most probably the replacement for the MX-keyboards. Something like a MODX "light": same engine, all the sounds and presets but no deep editing, probably no touch screen either. Easier to make splits and layers, considering the MODX requires a PHD. And of course no AN-X, or Montage/MODX users would feel screwed otherwise. Basically a nice lightweight, portable rompler with all the latest sounds. I'm not even sure it will include the FM-X engine. Or maybe a lesser one as in the reface DX, a 4-operator engine.

So we’re looking at GHS and the cheaper synth action.  They do typically keep controller functionality in mind on this tier/line of instruments.  

[AnotherScott]

"stage piano with everything designed for live performance" sounds more like a scaled down CP73/88 than an updated MX.

 

A possible way I could see doing this: Take a CP88, make it 2-section instead of 3-section, put it in a plastic chassis with an external power supply, use either a BHS or GHS action, replace the LED-ringed endless encoders with ordinary pots, maybe cheapen some of the other front panel controls, cut back on the connectivity (no XLRs, fewer pedals), maybe lose the delay and/or master EQ sections. 

 

 

[CyberGene]

40 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

"stage piano with everything designed for live performance" sounds more like a scaled down CP73/88 than an updated MX.

Yeah, that's a possibility. But why offer it in a 61-key version if it's a stage piano? And omit the 73-key one? Could be a scaled down YC instead, with similarly lessened features such as e.g. less effects, only one keys section, no fancy LED drawbars, no LED encoders, etc. But I still think the lack of a 73-key version for a supposed stage piano and going either limited 61 or full-blown 88 is not very typical and I would bet a beer on a MX-successor.

[CEB]

A reissue of the greatest Yamaha Synth in history … the SK50d. 
 

Hell I don’t know. 😀😀😀

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

But why offer it in a 61-key version if it's a stage piano? And omit the 73-key one? Could be a scaled down YC instead

 

Offering it in a 61 is interesting also because, unlike the YC, there is no 61-key equivalent to a CP73/88. But in my imaginary model, I could see adding, not the drawbar engine, but some of the other sound options from the YC, like having mono lead synth patches. So whether you see something like that as a scaled down YC without the organ or scaled down CP with some of the non-organ extra YC capabilities added is a matter of perspective. ;-)

 

I also think it's possible that this scaled-down CP approach could still effectively be used as a replacement model for the MX, i.e. it would be their new entry level general gigging board, superseding the MX in the line even if operation is more like that of a CP. (Though unlike the MX, they are apparently not offering it in a 49.)

 

The CP73/88 sound set (perhaps with a few enhancements) does cover all the typical bases, so even if called a "stage piano," I think it could still be at least as usable as a 61 general gigging board as the MX is. It's kind of interesting that, as of now, all the "bread and butter" boards that emphasize immediacy/hands-on control (SV2, Vox Continental, VR09/730, CP/YC, Nord Electro/Stage/Piano), are not available as 61s, or not available as 61s unless they have organ. That doesn't mean there couldn't be a market for an organ-less 61 board of this type, though. I think it's an interesting idea that I could see being successful.

 

I don't know why mfrs are hesitant to offer 7x, especially in the lower price range, I guess they haven't consistently sold as well. MODX was the first Yamaha of its type to offer a 76 (its MOXF, MOX, MO, MM predecessors had no 7x versions, even when their big brother Motifs did). Roland did not come out with 7x-key versions of the FA, Juno DS, or VR09 until the 61-key versions were proven successes. Sticking with pianos, Casio, Kawai, Korg, and Roland seem willing to let Yamaha market the P-121 unopposed.

 

If the CK is anything like my imaginary model described above, I'd actually like to see a 7x-semiweighted version of it (esp. since the CP and YC 73s are hammer action, leaving no board of this type currently available in a non-hammer 76).

 

 

[pjd]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

As we already discussed: these are most probably the replacement for the MX-keyboards. Something like a MODX "light": same engine, all the sounds and presets but no deep editing, probably no touch screen either. Easier to make splits and layers, considering the MODX requires a PHD. And of course no AN-X, or Montage/MODX users would feel screwed otherwise. Basically a nice lightweight, portable rompler with all the latest sounds. I'm not even sure it will include the FM-X engine. Or maybe a lesser one as in the reface DX, a 4-operator engine.

 

Got to agree. I just posted some new fodder:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ck-its-almost-here/

 

I worked back from the rumored price points (which, I suspect, are MSRP). Short story: MX is toast. Long live CK! If somebody needs an inexpensive "top" or "bottom" for their YCxx or CPxx, CK is it.

 

With respect to "C", the MX doesn't have as many front panel widgets needed to compete with full-size MIDI controllers. So, Yamaha maybe added some more gizmos for people who want to control VIs, especially tablet/phone-based VIs. I'm guessing, but "portable" may mean the addition of battery powered. Battery powered means "not compute intensive" tone generation/effects.

 

The price point is danged low and it affects the internal engineering/design.

 

Aw, heck. We'll know more tomorrow. (I hope.)

 

-- pj

 

[Mr -G-]

Not sure what is the story here linking to commercial sites, but if you search for CK88 you will find a link to gak.co.uk  with a photo and specs.

[CyberGene]

So, it’s like a watered down YC with AWM organs, drawbars, 300+ sounds (AWM2), three parts, direct controls similar to CP/YC, speakers, battery powered. Kind of we were all right in a way, but @AnotherScott was closest. Reminds me of Roland VR09. 

[Dockeys]

Hmmm has speakers and battery powered. 9 drawbars. Also has an audio interface. GHS action though. Seems like a cross between the CP/YC and a few modx sounds thrown in. 

[Dockeys]

Sorry cybergene didn’t see you post and ended up repeating most of your observations!

[Dockeys]

Has a vaguely 70s look with the colour scheme as well. I’d se it more as the MX replacement with some improvements. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

2 hours ago, pjd said:

 

Got to agree. I just posted some new fodder:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/ck-its-almost-here/

 

I worked back from the rumored price points (which, I suspect, are MSRP). Short story: MX is toast. Long live CK! If somebody needs an inexpensive "top" or "bottom" for their YCxx or CPxx, CK is it.

 

With respect to "C", the MX doesn't have as many front panel widgets needed to compete with full-size MIDI controllers. So, Yamaha maybe added some more gizmos for people who want to control VIs, especially tablet/phone-based VIs. I'm guessing, but "portable" may mean the addition of battery powered. Battery powered means "not compute intensive" tone generation/effects.

 

The price point is danged low and it affects the internal engineering/design.

 

Aw, heck. We'll know more tomorrow. (I hope.)

 

-- pj

 

 

There is a typo in your interesting article. You say "As to that “all-in-one,” might that be the Montage successor? Yamaha was slow to follow Motif XF (August 2020) with Montage (January 2016)"

 

The typo is of course the Motif XF date.

 

I really hoped the Montage to be a longer runner, but it seems its end as top synth is pretty close.

 

Jose

[CyberGene]

So, the organ is not the one from YC61/73 but the reface one, AWM-based. There’s a synth control section but it’s AWM2, so it’s similar to the ADSR and the other synth controls in the MODX. In a way it’s kind of YC meets the MX/MODX. Not a bad keyboard but not sure it’s something that interests me. 

[AnotherScott]

 

Based on low-res photos, not the prettiest thing I ever saw, but more capable than I'd expected, I'm pretty impressed. 

 

"dedicated controls for organ, synth and effect sections, allowing for easy and intuitive manipulation of the sounds. The organ section includes nine footage sliders and three-part volume sliders, while the synth and effect section includes eleven control knobs." -- As I mentioned, I wouldn't have expected drawbar control, cool.  And some real time synth controls, too, so maybe a step up from CP/YC in that respect, whose synth knobs are  particularly minimal... even though, as cybergene pointed out, the synth sounds remain sample-based.

 

"features the sounds of the renowned Yamaha CP Stage Piano and the YC Stage Keyboard " in one description, and a similar "features a sound engine that combines Yamaha’s renowned CP Stage Piano and YC Stage Keyboard" in another -- it will be interesting to see how close it comes to the EPs and organ of those. Which brings me to...

 

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

So, the organ is not the one from YC61/73 but the reface one, AWM-based.

 

Yes, and the "organ flutes" reference in the specs ("Tone Generator: AWM2 & AWM for Organ Flutes") similarly make me think the organ may be more like Reface YC or Genos than YC61/73/88. Which rotary sim they used will make a real difference too. But considering I didn't expect any drawbar implementation at all, I'm not complaining regardless. IF they did a nice MIDI implementation, hopefully it's not too difficult to use the 9 sliders for Vb3m or B3X if you prefer. Built-in USB audio interface can help here (and it has line inputs, too). Similarly, getting back to whatever synth controls it has controlling its sample-based synth sounds, if the MIDI implementation supports it well, it could still provide a nice control surface for also enhancing the board with synth sounds from an app or whatever.

 

Nice that it's still 3-part like the YC/CP, I thought they might go down to 2-part for the lower priced variant. Without a 3rd-party editor,  the MX was only 2-part. There may even be some beyond-YC/CP functionality here, since they also say: "The split and layer functionality is what makes the CK61 truly stand out. It allows you to divide the keyboard into two or more sections, each with its own sound and range."

 

"With these dedicated controls, keyboardists can focus on the music and seamlessly navigate between sounds, creating complex layers and splits with ease." -- That's interesting phrasing. One gotcha on the YC/CP is that, while navigating between Live Sets is seamless, switching between sounds for live splitting and layering with the front panel controls (i.e. within a Live Set) is not always quite that seamless, sounds do sometimes cut off when you make a front panel change. But also, the interface is different, and the particular method of changing a sound that created a drop may not even exist on this board.

 

Speakers are 6w x 2, no indication of size or design (i.e. full-range vs. 2-way). But it's a nice bonus regardless.

 

Batteries  are 8 AA, and it can take NIMH rechargables. Up to 5 hrs playing time.

 

GHS action on the 88, FSB action (same as PSR-SX700/900)  on the 61

 

12.5 lbs 61, 28.9 lbs 88

 

supports two pedals, looks like both can be used as either sustain or expression type

 

and yes, 5-pin MIDI (ya gotta hold your breath these days)
 

I should mention this data is all from a vendor's site, not from Yamaha, and vendors' sites have sometimes had wrong info, e.g. if working from preliminary data sheets.

 

[ElmerJFudd]

19 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Based on low-res photos, not the prettiest thing I ever saw, but more capable than I'd expected, I'm pretty impressed. 

 

"dedicated controls for organ, synth and effect sections, allowing for easy and intuitive manipulation of the sounds. The organ section includes nine footage sliders and three-part volume sliders, while the synth and effect section includes eleven control knobs." -- As I mentioned, I wouldn't have expected drawbar control, cool.  And some real time synth controls, too, so maybe a step up from CP/YC in that respect, whose synth knobs are  particularly minimal... even though, as cybergene pointed out, the synth sounds remain sample-based.

 

"features the sounds of the renowned Yamaha CP Stage Piano and the YC Stage Keyboard " in one description, and a similar "features a sound engine that combines Yamaha’s renowned CP Stage Piano and YC Stage Keyboard" in another -- it will be interesting to see how close it comes to the EPs and organ of those. Which brings me to...

 

 

Yes, and the "organ flutes" reference in the specs ("Tone Generator: AWM2 & AWM for Organ Flutes") similarly make me think the organ may be more like Reface YC or Genos than YC61/73/88. Which rotary sim they used will make a real difference too. But considering I didn't expect any drawbar implementation at all, I'm not complaining regardless. IF they did a nice MIDI implementation, hopefully it's not too difficult to use the 9 sliders for Vb3m or B3X if you prefer. Built-in USB audio interface can help here (and it has line inputs, too). Similarly, getting back to whatever synth controls it has controlling its sample-based synth sounds, if the MIDI implementation supports it well, it could still provide a nice control surface for also enhancing the board with synth sounds from an app or whatever.

 

Nice that it's still 3-part like the YC/CP, I thought they might go down to 2-part for the lower priced variant. Without a 3rd-party editor,  the MX was only 2-part. There may even be some beyond-YC/CP functionality here, since they also say: "The split and layer functionality is what makes the CK61 truly stand out. It allows you to divide the keyboard into two or more sections, each with its own sound and range."

 

"With these dedicated controls, keyboardists can focus on the music and seamlessly navigate between sounds, creating complex layers and splits with ease." -- That's interesting phrasing. One gotcha on the YC/CP is that, while navigating between Live Sets is seamless, switching between sounds for live splitting and layering with the front panel controls (i.e. within a Live Set) is not always quite that seamless, sounds do sometimes cut off when you make a front panel change. But also, the interface is different, and the particular method of changing a sound that created a drop may not even exist on this board.

 

Speakers are 6w x 2, no indication of size or design (i.e. full-range vs. 2-way). But it's a nice bonus regardless.

 

Batteries  are 8 AA, and it can take NIMH rechargables. Up to 5 hrs playing time.

 

GHS action on the 88, FSX action (same as PSR-SX700/900)  on the 61

 

12.5 lbs 61, 28.9 lbs 88

 

supports two pedals, looks like both can be used as either sustain or expression type

 

and yes, 5-pin MIDI (ya gotta hold your breath these days)
 

I should mention this data is all from a vendor's site, not from Yamaha, and vendors' sites have sometimes had wrong info, e.g. if working from preliminary data sheets.

 

Have they ever done a keyboard with controls that weren’t sending the expected cc?  Yamaha has been doing a dual function onboard and DAW control for a long time.  Motif, S90, MX etc. The faders and knobs buttons, etc. always easy to map or already have Settings for Cubase, Logic, HUI/Mackie,  or what have you.  I doubt they threw it away. In fact, I bet or I’m hoping they left what’s already working alone.  

[stoken6]

Interesting to see the combination of organ/drawbars with a wide soundset range. My usual question - can it play one or more sounds from its own keys, simultaneous with one or more other sounds via MIDI? 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

19 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Have they ever done a keyboard with controls that weren’t sending him the expected cc? 

On the YC61/73/88, the drawbars send MIDI CC, but the percussion and CV controls do not. :-( Further complication: the MIDI that the drawbars send cannot be enabled as part of a defined external zone, so while it is workable, it is not as flexible in its implementation as it could be.

 

But as soon as I saw it was a semi-weighted board with real-time organ and synth controls, I thought of you! :-) I know that's one of your pet peeves, the dearth of boards with real-time organ and synth controls to put over a piano board. Though it remains to be seen how many synth-specific controls there are, and as mentioned, it's still not a real VA synth there. 11 control knobs shows some potential, though. With luck, the same 11 controls can be dual-purposed to be either effects controls or synth controls (as opposed to, say, 5 dedicated effects controls and 6 dedicated synth controls). And/or the synth controls themselves might be swappable to different functions (e.g.  the same envelope controls can be selected to be filter or amp envelope controls). I'm not counting on it, but I'm hopeful.

 

18 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

Interesting to see the combination of organ/drawbars with a wide soundset range. My usual question - can it play one or more sounds from its own keys, simultaneous with one or more other sounds via MIDI? 

Good question. The YC and CP models they reference both support 4 external zones, but so far, no external zoning has been mentioned in anything I've seen on  the CK.  I have some optimism here, though, hopefully not misplaced, that it will be there, since what little we can see of the screen interface in conjunction with the YC/CP references in the text makes me think that it was probably "already there" and would have had to essentially been intentionally disabled to do away with it.

 

And actually, that could even be why they talked about being able to "divide the keyboard into two or more sections" since, on the CP/YC, it is the external zone function that allows you to divide the keyboard into more than two sections.

 

[Paul Woodward]

I just hope the YC continues to be supported with new features. New boards with similar features (and a lower price point) can see more expensive boards like the YC series left in the dust. Yamaha already reneged on their promise of ‘regular updates’. Been over a year since the last one.

[Paul Woodward]

Not sure what I think of the design…

[Adan]

So, it's taken this long for someone to try to go head to head with the VR09 in the "poor man's Nord Stage" category.  This could be an interesting keyboard but it depends on whether they address some of the glaring flaws in the Reface YC organ.  The YC has a great basic tone, but everything else is pretty bad.  If they can just improve that from "bad" to "decent," then this could be a nice all in one rehearsal/backup/jam session board.  We know the pianos will be better than the VR09.

 

I would  not be interested in wiring it up with external modules or software.  For me, the point of a keyboard like this is maximum convenience.

[AnotherScott]

VR09 is a good comparison here (which cybergene made as well). Organ comparison will depend a lot on the board's rotary sim implementation. Yes, piano will be  better, as will EP if they are EPs from CP/YC (even if there are fewer of them or don't have all the effects, etc.). The ability to have 2 sounds that each have their own effects will be an advantage, as is the ability to mix/match 3 sounds from the front panel instead of 2. MIDI functionality and patch navigation will probably be better. Roland should have the better sounding pseudo-analog synth.