Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[nadroj]

I like it. For my needs the MODX is overkill. The MODX also has crappy organs and little hands on control, and this new thing seems more flexible than the YC.

 

If it turns out the rotary is the new studio rotary they used on the YC, and they bring out a proper semi-weighted 7X version I can see myself being all over this in a couple of years. 
 

Bluetooth audio, built in speakers, proper audio interface and AD inputs really make it good for home use especially, and for easily integrating Mainstage.

 

I like it a lot. You’re getting the quality Yamaha sounds and functionality in a Roland sized package. Looking forward to trying one out. 
 

[Paul Woodward]

Those short drawbars though…

[Sunlight2]

I've never quite understood the concept of a 'rehearsal' board! When I rehearse I use the equipment I'll be using live on the gig - that's what I want to get acquainted with and practiced at using. I get if it's just basic jamming around on piano.organ etc, but for specific sounds/songs/sets, i'm gonna use my live set up

[16251]

I have no gigging reason to buy/sell another DP. The CK88 does intrigue me. Maybe I would like the GHS action considering I liked the action of older Yamahas (P90, etc,) and it's light, built-in speakers, can do three layers. I think it looks a little retro, which I like.

 

Can anyone compare CP4, 515 actions to GHS actions?

 

BTW - 

[Mr -G-]

24 minutes ago, 16251 said:

I think it looks a little retro, which I like.

It reminds me of the Roland SH-2 and SH-09 🤔

[ElmerJFudd]

 

[CyberGene]

The more I think about these new CK-instruments, the more I like them. They started with the great CP/YC concept, listened to some user input (although admittedly not everything) and ultimately brought down what is (arguably) a Nord-like simplicity into an (arguably) budget stage-keyboard for the masses. Not sure if you expected better and more expensive successors to the CP/YC or even a Stage competitor (how many people are in the market for a Yamaha one?) but these will certainly sell like hot cakes IMO.

[Spider76]

11 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

 Not sure if you expected even better and more expensive successors to the CP/YC or even a Stage competitor (how many people are in the market for a Yamaha one?) but these will certainly sell like hot cakes IMO.

The way I see it (which may be totally wrong of course) is that these have nothing to do with the YC/CP series.

These look more like a "Reface Pro" series, down to the simplified interface, built-in speakers, battery operation and accessible price.

 

And I mean it as a compliment, people have been asking for a big man's Reface for years, and Yamaha responded. I see it as a very clever move, and I agree that they will probably sell a ton of them, to the vast majority of musicians that doesn't need 5000 sounds, 128 layers and gazillion of advanced programming options.

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

I wonder if this is the extent of new Yamaha keyboard products at NAMM. I was holding out to see before getting another CP88, or going down to San Diego to buy that lightly used CP4. This is not all up my alley. Disappointing for sure.

I wouldn’t say having an offering like this in the $999-1499 price range is disappointing.  It’s tactically late - Roland’s VR09 and 730 have been very successful for them. There is definitely a segment that wants lighter carry, lower price point.  
 

But I understand these CKs don’t appeal to players that prefer premium builds and actions.  I’m still assuming the current CP and YC are selling well enough to get firmware updates. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 minute ago, Spider76 said:

The way I see it (which may be totally wrong of course) is that these have nothing to do with the YC/CP series.

These look more like a "Reface Pro" series, down to the simplified interface, built-in speakers, battery operation and accessible price.

 

And I mean it as a compliment, people have been asking for a big man's Reface for years, and Yamaha responded. I see it as a very clever move, and I agree that they will probably sell a ton of them, to the vast majority of musicians that doesn't need 5000 sounds, 128 layers and gazillion of advanced programming options.

I wish there was a reface Pro. But if they build one, I’d expect it to have the reface DX and CS engines in it along with the reface  CP and YC.  

[CyberGene]

1 minute ago, Spider76 said:

The way I see it (which may be totally wrong of course) is that these have nothing to do with the YC/CP series.

These look more like a "Reface Pro" series

Well, some would say the CP and YC were the "reface Pro" versions 😀 So, the CK is either a reface on steroids, or CP/YC on tranquilizers, no wrong way of looking at it 😉

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, nadroj said:

I get why they wouldn’t want the organ as good as the YC. It would cannibalise YC sales. Actually I don’t get it, I’d rather they put the best organ in just to make it good, but I don’t understand economics or marketing. However…

 

…If they’ve offered a performance keyboard with an organ section featuring drawbars and have not at least included their newest rotary emulation they are out of their damn minds. 

 

A possible rationale is that the YC61 organ engine required additional electronics/processing capabilities that do not exist in the CK, and maybe even that its best rotary sim also made use of those additional capabilities. But... I'm still hoping that the "standard" rotary will be the YC's updated "studio" effect and not their original "classic" effect.

 

5 hours ago, zephonic said:

So I guess there isn’t anything here that the MODX doesn’t do, right?

 

It still probably has the better organ, and maybe some different pianos/Rhodes. But mostly, I think, it's about a different way of working, which is arguably as much of why someone would have picked a CP/YC over a MODX as any sonic differences. Action is another variable. CK88 and MODX8 are both GHS, but the 61 actions are of a different design.

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

On a different note, I actually prefer the VR09 action to the YC61. Much higher trigger point. Neither are great for piano work

 

I agree about organ. Despite the YC61's waterfall shape, the VR09 keys play better for organ, I think it's actually the release point that bothered me more in the YC (or maybe the combination of where the trigger and release points were). But I think the YC61 action is quite a bit better than the VR09 for piano. (Its piano/EP sounds are much better, too.) 

 

I suspect CK61 action will also be better than VR09 for pianos, I'll be curious to see about organ.

 

46 minutes ago, Sunlight2 said:

I'm surprised and baffled by these CK boards. Giggging musicians can pick up a far more powerful MODX+7 for not much more.

 

"Not much more" is relative, but MODX6+ is $1500, 7+ is $1600, CK61 is $1k. But as I said above, I think it's also about your preferred way of working in terms of interface/ergonomics. Remember, one of the things that most turn some people off about MODX is that they find it complicated. Not everyone wants the more powerful option, they may prefer the simpler, if it still does what they need. Nord basically built their whole company around that idea, and people pay a premium for it... in this case, you pay less for it!

 

 

46 minutes ago, Sunlight2 said:

And anyone who uses organ is going to shoot for a YC73. These just seem to fall between the two stools. 

 

YC61 is $2k, CK61 is $1k. And if you're looking for hammer action, YC73 is similarly $1100 more than CK88.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Sunlight2 said:

I've never quite understood the concept of a 'rehearsal' board! When I rehearse I use the equipment I'll be using live on the gig - that's what I want to get acquainted with and practiced at using. I get if it's just basic jamming around on piano.organ etc, but for specific sounds/songs/sets, i'm gonna use my live set up

 

It depends on the kind of rehearsal (and maybe sometimes the kind of music, too). A rehearsal can be just to get parts tight, work on vocal harmonies, etc., and you don't necessarily need to bring your "best" sounds, or be working with all your "right" sounds for that.

 

6 minutes ago, Spider76 said:

The way I see it (which may be totally wrong of course) is that these have nothing to do with the YC/CP series.

These look more like a "Reface Pro" series, down to the simplified interface, built-in speakers, battery operation and accessible price.

 

Yeah, there is some of each philosophy. But if you look at the displays, the settings/menu options, the overall features/architecture, even the manuals, you'll see that perhaps 90% of it is a direct lift from YC/CP.

[EscapeRocks]

19 hours ago, CyberGene said:

So, it’s like a watered down YC with AWM organs, drawbars, 300+ sounds (AWM2), three parts, direct controls similar to CP/YC, speakers, battery powered. Kind of we were all right in a way, but @AnotherScott was closest. Reminds me of Roland VR09. 

True, but unlike the VR-09, at least this has good MIDI Implementation

[stoken6]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

jp.yamaha.com -- here's the link to the manual

 

https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1547682/ck88_en_om_b0.pdf

You can choose which of the three parts to play from an external controller! The Roland VR09 has this for a single part, while Korg Vox Continental can't do this at all. 

 

Well done Yamaha for recognising this need.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[CEB]

1 hour ago, Sunlight2 said:

I've never quite understood the concept of a 'rehearsal' board! When I rehearse I use the equipment I'll be using live on the gig - that's what I want to get acquainted with and practiced at using. I get if it's just basic jamming around on piano.organ etc, but for specific sounds/songs/sets, i'm gonna use my live set up

I have several rehearsal boards, ie former gig boards I never got rid of.  The main concept is I can arrive at the practice place a minute before the downbeat, flip a switch and go. Also I don’t have to shlep anything. I’ve had as many as three rehearsal rigs at once.  It’s the only thing that gives me any solace in still having my SKX, XK3c and my XB-2. 😀.  
 

The actual gear I rehearse on is usually overrated. 

[UnderGroundGr]

27 minutes ago, CEB said:

I have several rehearsal boards, ie former gig boards I never got rid of.  The main concept is I can arrive at the practice place a minute before the downbeat, flip a switch and go. Also I don’t have to shlep anything. I’ve had as many as three rehearsal rigs at once.  It’s the only thing that gives me any solace in still having my SKX, XK3c and my XB-2. 😀.  
 

The actual gear I rehearse on is usually overrated. 

 

I agree. 10 years ago I use a controller with MainStage for rehearsal board and for the gigs I played my K2661. And I left controller in the studio, so I carried only the MacBook...😉

[EscapeRocks]

Here's why I like the new CK's:

First, I had a YC61. Great board. However, I did not get along at all with the control layout.

Looking at the CK panel, and the manual; I've already quickly seen how to navigate it.  I like the way the CK groups various things together compared to the YC. 

Again, I liked my YC, but I found I had to think too hard in a live situation when wanting to make real-time adjustments.

 

Just my$2.50 on the subject

 

[Adan]

2 hours ago, Sunlight2 said:

I've never quite understood the concept of a 'rehearsal' board! When I rehearse I use the equipment I'll be using live on the gig - that's what I want to get acquainted with and practiced at using. I get if it's just basic jamming around on piano.organ etc, but for specific sounds/songs/sets, i'm gonna use my live set up

I'm guessing you probably understand the concept, you just don't have use for it yourself.  Neither do I right now.  But there's been times when, for instance, I was taking public transport to work then going straight to rehearsal, then public transport home.  Can't remember now how I handled that -- probably very badly.  Something like the CK would have come in very handy.  And there's other examples. 

 

We're all different, and we're even different from ourselves at different times.  But I can see the CK being useful for some people, some of the time, even those who can afford a more expensive all-in-one keyboard.

[AnotherScott]

Here's a chart I put together, comparing piano and Rhodes capabilities. My takeaway: CP is the best piano board of the bunch, YC is the best Rhodes board of the bunch. 

 

[Paul Woodward]

I don’t mind dragging upwards of four grands worth of equipment to a studio or paid gig with audience, but not so keen doing the same down a cold dark alley to a rehearsal room for a few hours just to practice arrangements/parts etc. 

Will be trying the VR09 this week in place of the YC. I know it won’t sound quite as good, but it’s close enough for rehearsal. However, I can imagine these new boards would be ideal for rehearsal and gig.

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

A possible rationale is that the YC61 organ engine required additional electronics/processing capabilities that do not exist in the CK, and maybe even that its best rotary sim also made use of those additional capabilities. But... I'm still hoping that the "standard" rotary will be the YC's updated "studio" effect and not their original "classic" effect.

 

 

It still probably has the better organ, and maybe some different pianos/Rhodes. But mostly, I think, it's about a different way of working, which is arguably as much of why someone would have picked a CP/YC over a MODX as any sonic differences. Action is another variable. CK88 and MODX8 are both GHS, but the 61 actions are of a different design.

 

 

I agree about organ. Despite the YC61's waterfall shape, the VR09 keys play better for organ, I think it's actually the release point that bothered me more in the YC (or maybe the combination of where the trigger and release points were). But I think the YC61 action is quite a bit better than the VR09 for piano. (Its piano/EP sounds are much better, too.) 

 

I suspect CK61 action will also be better than VR09 for pianos, I'll be curious to see about organ.

 

 

"Not much more" is relative, but MODX6+ is $1500, 7+ is $1600, CK61 is $1k. But as I said above, I think it's also about your preferred way of working in terms of interface/ergonomics. Remember, one of the things that most turn some people off about MODX is that they find it complicated. Not everyone wants the more powerful option, they may prefer the simpler, if it still does what they need. Nord basically built their whole company around that idea, and people pay a premium for it... in this case, you pay less for it!

 

 

 

YC61 is $2k, CK61 is $1k. And if you're looking for hammer action, YC73 is similarly $1100 more than CK88.

i bought my MODX7+ new for $1350 during a sale. These  new boards are way overpriced even at 20% off. But inflation has ravaged MI pricing.
 

  I am happy with the MODX+ for several reasons. Its both a rehearsal board and gigging board. For rehearsals I split the keyboard and play B3x on top when i need organ… i con’t imagine using that crappy Yamaha Hammond emulation for organ… even for rehearsals. I use my MOJO 61 at gigs for the great action and drawbars. 

[Fleer]

I just hope the CK61 action is better than that rather flimsy MODX6 keybed. 

[ElmerJFudd]

16 minutes ago, Fleer said:

I just hope the CK61 action is better than that rather flimsy MODX6 keybed. 

That is definitely one of the questions of the day.  

[AnotherScott]

A few more observations...

 

Regular pitch/mod wheels instead of the sticks they've been using on the CP/YC

 

The fact that it is the Reface YC engine does have a couple of perks of its own... you get the Acetone and YC Combo emulations that weren't implemented on the YC61.

 

Someone asked if the 61 action is semi-weighted... Blake from Yamaha said it is, in a video.

 

There's a nice simple implementation to let you choose which sound or sounds you want something to apply to. For example, you can easily have the filter cutoff affect just a single sound of your split/layer combination, or have it affect two or all three of them.

 

One thing I never used to care about but I miss now is that there appears to be no attachable music stand. Those are really handy for placing an iPad just where you want it (whether using it for other sounds, backing tracks, or just for charts/lyrics), as long as it's being used as a top or only board. (That's another nice perk of the CT-S500 I did a little comparison to earlier.)

 

9 hours ago, Dave Ferris said:

Also the CP88 has the Hamburg Grand with v 1.5 update. 

 

Fixed, thanks!

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Just as a side note... the PSR SX900 and 700 are @$%^ expensive PSRs.  I doubt GC has any on the floor to try out the FSB.  But I suspect the CKs will be everywhere soon enough.  

[M_G]

The FSB action in the PSRs is a pretty good synth action.

I asked myself why they didnt put these into the moxf or modx....

 

Same with Korg. There Synth action in the arranger line PA4/5 is pretty good. Much better than the Kronos action....

 

[Docbop]

 

 

I'd say Yamaha looked that the economy and how much DIY music is going on since the Covid and has something at the right price point for current world. 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

2 minutes ago, M_G said:

The FSB action in the PSRs is a pretty good synth action.

I asked myself why they didnt put these into the moxf or modx....

 

Same with Korg. There Synth action in the arranger line PA4/5 is pretty good. Much better than the Kronos action....

 

That's an interesting. perspective.  The Kronos' synth action is better quality imho than FA06/VR09, MODX6, Krome, Kross, Electro, Wave 2, Stage Compact.  

[pjd]

I just updated my CK description page:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-ck88-unverified-leakage/

 

And posted a few opinions/observations while reading the manual:

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-ck-random-bits/

 

Hope to respond to a few comments here later -- pj

 

P.S. Nice day outside after days of rain in the PNW, and I'm not going to waste it behind a computer. 🙂