Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[Sam Mullins]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Perhaps we can assist my thought process on this. 

 

Pros/Cons of choosing CK61 over a controller keyboard like Keylab MkII or Nektar Panorama T6?

Pros

1. Onboard sounds when you don't have your laptop/tablet

2. Runs on Batteries

3. 5 Pin and USB MIDI

4. Faders/Drawbars are on the left side

5. Built in audio interface

6. Possibly better action (to be determined). 

7. We expect Yamaha build quality and Yamaha firmware/software 

 

Cons

1. $400 more expensive 

2. Less controllers

3. Keys are likely some % of a mm thinner than standard

4. Probably (at least at first) fewer preset mappings for popular VSTs - though I prefer to do it myself in Main Stage either way.

 

This is a good summary.  I've been in the process of doing a light-weight rig to duplicate say 75% of what I do with my normal rig (Kronos 61 + Stage 3 88)....for short gigs in tight spaces.  I'm pretty close with: 

- Casio CT-S500

- ipad Pro

- Camelot Pro + apps (mostly Korg Module, B3-X, Neo-Soul Keys, Ravenscroft, and Pure Synth)

- Airturn B500 S-2 foot pedal to advance scenes (to make up for fact that I don't have two keyboards)

 

Why do I bring all this up here?  Because I've now invested enough time to determine that:

a) I can cover most of the sonic territory with high quality sounds and I can overcome most of the compromises in keyboard real estate

b) There is NO WAY I would gig with only a pure controller that can't act as a decent sound source...I've had enough flakiness to make me very cautious.

 

So from my POV,  a CK61 + ipad/iphone would really be a nice combination especially with the built-in audio interface.

 

[cphollis]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Perhaps we can assist my thought process on this. 

 

Pros/Cons of choosing CK61 over a controller keyboard like Keylab MkII or Nektar Panorama T6?

Pros

1. Onboard sounds when you don't have your laptop/tablet

2. Runs on Batteries

3. 5 Pin and USB MIDI

4. Faders/Drawbars are on the left side

5. Built in audio interface

6. Possibly better action (to be determined). 

7. We expect Yamaha build quality and Yamaha firmware/software 

 

Cons

1. $400 more expensive 

2. Less controllers

3. Keys are likely some % of a mm thinner than standard

4. Probably (at least at first) fewer preset mappings for popular VSTs - though I prefer to do it myself in Main Stage either way.

 

I might add a few here?

 

It's not clear whether there is (or will be) an expanded library of sounds.  They make mention of a forum for sharing presets, but what about core sounds?  I would need to listen to each and every one to see if I liked what was there for my purpose.  The current vids are very limited.  Yes, there's weak organ but what else might lie in wait?

 

Audio out from iPad to built-in speakers is very nice touch.  That would be my B3 organ, SWAM instruments and other iPad faves right along as part of the mix, or maybe drum trax.  Not to mention a bazillion synth softwares to play with.  Also very nice for quick compositions on GarageBand, using either native voices or iPad voices.

 

I'm thinking the $999 MAP will start to look like $850 once it shows up widely in distribution, at which point I could start to justify it simply as a fun toy to take on vacations, with occasional gig use,  etc.

[ewall08530]

I’ve looked over the manual but can’t determine if it’s possible to hard pan the left/right outputs and have all the organs coming out one side into my Ventilator.  

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, pjd said:

Front panel gizmos and 88 GHS keybed aside, the CK is 100% recycled content. That's not a slag on the CK because the content is Yammie good. However, by deep diving MODX,  I can recreate nearly every CK sound using MODX -- and more.

From that perspective, even the GHS is "recycled" as that's the action of the MODX8/8+.

 

2 hours ago, pjd said:

The CK organ presets which I cannot recreate are the pipe organs. (!) Yammie recycled those from Genos and they're darned good.

It would be ironic if the tonewheel organ sounds of the CK  are not as good as what's on the MODX Performance that gives you 9-drawbar access (though that one eats polyphony like mad). I don't  think the MODX has the  other organs,  though, at least in their equivalent of drawbar-adjustable variations (the Farfisa, Vox, Acetone and YC Combo). There are  some other things that are missing... I don't think the MODX has the U1 upright. I keep meaning to see if I can get my preferred YC61 Rhodes sounds out of the MODX.

 

But yeah, for a MODX owner, the big reason to even consider this is for its "front panel gizmos." And this also gets back to something alluded to in another thread, that it's not always about sounds, because there are tons of boards that can give you "good enough" sounds for just about anything, even if chasing the ultimate sounds is futile. And looked at that way, the way you interact with the sounds can be as important--or even more important--than the sounds themselves. Which means "front panel gizmos" can become, not a reason for a MODX owner to dismiss it, but could be the very reason a MODX owner would find it appealing... "better" access to many of the  board's most useful sounds. Maybe a CK and a MODX can even be a good pair. Though considering that sonic duplication, a CK and a Fantom-0 or PC4 series board might  be more tempting, if you didn't already have the MODX.

 

1 hour ago, cphollis said:

It's not clear whether there is (or will be) an expanded library of sounds.  They make mention of a forum for sharing presets, but what about core sounds?  I would need to listen to each and every one to see if I liked what was there for my purpose.  The current vids are very limited.  Yes, there's weak organ but what else might lie in wait?

 

I'd assume there will not be any additional sample sets forthcoming. On the CP/YC, Yamaha said from the start that there would be additional sounds to download into it. Since they are not saying that about this one, I'd assume not... and anything that may come will just be a nice surprise!

 

The manual does list all the sounds. I would guess that many could essentially be auditioned by finding like-named patches in a YC/CP (though those have fewer than the CK) or Montage/MODX.

 

1 hour ago, ewall08530 said:

I’ve looked over the manual but can’t determine if it’s possible to hard pan the left/right outputs and have all the organs coming out one side into my Ventilator.  

 

When you can't find it in a manual, the answer is usually no. Same problem with the YC. :-(  You can tinker with the auto-pan controls and can manually get there with some effort (by setting rate to 0 when the effect at full depth places it where you want it), but it's not recallable that way (even if you were willing to burn the two effects to do it).

[dtb200]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:24 PM, pjd said:

Forgot to mention the most interesting point from the manual.

 

Check the date on the MIDI implementation chart: 16-July-2021.

 

Yamaha had this design in the can for a loooooooooong time. COVID and supply chain issues.

 

-- pj

 

Yes - I spotted those dates (and the video tutorials are mid-2022

[JohnH]

58 minutes ago, ewall08530 said:

I’ve looked over the manual but can’t determine if it’s possible to hard pan the left/right outputs and have all the organs coming out one side into my Ventilator.  

 

Yes you have read this correctly- there is none.  Same as CP/YC there's no panning. As seen by searching the word pan in the pdf- there's no panning possible on these.  The manual will not say "You cannot Pan" It just won't have anything about it in the manual. Omission is the no answer.

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1547682/ck88_en_om_b0.pdf

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Perhaps we can assist my thought process on this. 

 

Pros/Cons of choosing CK61 over a controller keyboard like Keylab MkII or Nektar Panorama T6?

Pros

1. Onboard sounds when you don't have your laptop/tablet

2. Runs on Batteries

3. 5 Pin and USB MIDI

4. Faders/Drawbars are on the left side

5. Built in audio interface

6. Possibly better action (to be determined). 

7. We expect Yamaha build quality and Yamaha firmware/software 

 

Cons

1. $400 more expensive 

2. Less controllers

3. Keys are likely some % of a mm thinner than standard

4. Probably (at least at first) fewer preset mappings for popular VSTs - though I prefer to do it myself in Main Stage either way.

 

 

more...

 

Pros:

... lighter weight

... the control layout is non-generic, instead the knobs are pre-labeled/grouped/positioned for specific purposes, which besides simplifying operation, I think would also make it feel more like you're playing an instrument rather than operating a computer (but note that, for the most part, buttons do not send MIDI CC, only sliders and knobs do, the other stuff is sysex)

... related to that, if you actually want simultaneous drawbars, preset select buttons, zone volume controls, effects controls, sound category buttons--IOW, the particular combination of real-time controls that the CK gives you--I'm not sure you could effectively duplicate that on those controllers

... the display is informative of things like which sounds are assigned over which keys, which effects parameters you're adjusting, etc, so you don't have to look at some off-board display for these things... though it looks like Nektar's Nektarine software may(?) address that if you use one of their supported VSTs, or maybe add your own mapping for something else?

... it seems more amenable to mixing-and-matching sounds "on the fly" whereas I think the controller approach assumes you've set up all your basic patches and combinations in advance. 

 

Cons:

... picking up from your less controllers comment, specifically: no aftertouch, no trigger pads, and knobs that have to either jump or catch up to their values instead of having endless encoders 

 

Clarifications:

...they all have 5-pin MIDI, though the Nektar lacks the 5-pin MIDI In, but that's usually not much of an issue on a controller that has no internal sounds

...the Nektar also has the faders on the left

[FuzzyPants]

 

[ElmerJFudd]

11 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

more...

 

Pros:

... lighter weight

... the control layout is non-generic, instead the knobs are pre-labeled/grouped/positioned for specific purposes, which besides simplifying operation, I think would also make it feel more like you're playing an instrument rather than operating a computer (but note that, for the most part, buttons do not send MIDI CC, only sliders and knobs do, the other stuff is sysex)

... related to that, if you actually want simultaneous drawbars, preset select buttons, zone volume controls, effects controls, sound category buttons--IOW, the particular combination of real-time controls that the CK gives you--I'm not sure you could effectively duplicate that on those controllers

... the display is informative of things like which sounds are assigned over which keys, which effects parameters you're adjusting, etc, so you don't have to look at some off-board display for these things... though it looks like Nektar's Nektarine software may(?) address that if you use one of their supported VSTs, or maybe add your own mapping for something else?

... it seems more amenable to mixing-and-matching sounds "on the fly" whereas I think the controller approach assumes you've set up all your basic patches and combinations in advance. 

 

Cons:

... picking up from your less controllers comment, specifically: no aftertouch, no trigger pads, and knobs that have to either jump or catch up to their values instead of having endless encoders 

 

Clarifications:

...they all have 5-pin MIDI, though the Nektar lacks the 5-pin MIDI In, but that's usually not much of an issue on a controller that has no internal sounds

...the Nektar also has the faders on the left

On Sysex with regard to MainStage - does anyone know if MainStage listens for sysex values in assignments and mapping?  My perusing through online tutorials suggests not. 
 

For my purposes I really only need patch jumping assignments.  On a 61k keyboard I’m inclined not to give up two keys for that. 
 

 

 

 

 

[FuzzyPants]

 

[FuzzyPants]

 

[Sam Mullins]

One more positive aspect on this thing: it's in a price range that I might actually be able to play one at the local Guitar Center.  😏

[AnotherScott]

Here's something that I think is a benefit, which hasn't been mentioned before... the 8 Live Set (custom patch) selection buttons are all in a row immediately above the center of the keyboard. That's a very convenient location for quick and accurate changes. I am reminded of someone's post bemoaning having to use the Kurzweil PC4's number pad for Favorites, compared to the Forte/Artis method of buttons similarly centered right above the keys, and I think there is definitely something to that. (And it's something that was somewhat brought back in the PC4 SE.)

 

I prefer this to the 4-over-4 layout of the YC (or the CP, which has the 4-over-4 off to the left). It always takes me a second to look at the vertical list of sounds on the screen and relate it to the two horizontal rows... I would more quickly hone in on "button 6" as the 6th in a row of 8 than I would if it were the second in a lower row of 4. I'd also more easily be able to paper-label them for my most common set or two, with each label directly under its associated button.

 

Also, some of you may remember a posted pic where I had put together a stack with the Vox Continental on bottom, where the top board almost completely covered the Vox control surface. The idea was, I used all those controls to create my sounds, but live, I just needed to call up the presets I had assembled, and those buttons likewise were all just right above the keys. So I could get to my sounds, while still keeping the keys of my lower and upper boards as close as I like. The patch selection buttons of the CK would likewise permit you to have a very "slim" bottom board in terms of how close you could get the keys to a board above, about as thin as the typical shallow slab, but with a better soundset than most if not all shallow slabs, and all that real-time control when you want it for your pre-gig sound programming/assembling. You could even get to the drawbars without needing access to much more depth.

 

Yeah, you lose the screen access (not an issue on the Vox because it had no screen that gave you the names of the patches anyway)... so like I did on the Vox, you'd have to do what I alluded to above... paper labels, for a small number of banks. (Or send Program Changes from a smartphone/tablet, if you're inclined to work that way, and might have it there anyway for charts/lyrics/backing tracks whatever.) I don't typically need access to a ton of different sounds from my bottom board, so labeling them is not necessarily impractical... though I don't know if there's a way to keep track of which bank of 8 you're in, that could be an issue if "flying blind." It would be nice if you could assign different colors to the Lilve Set select buttons depending on which bank you're in, but I don't think it can do that.

[summerinstereo]

I got a quote back on one of these from a friend with connections - the price was $100 less than the lowest price I can find online.

Compared to other prices he's been able to get for other products, which were about 50% of RRP - that's more than I expected, still going to do it anyway because I can clearly see it's the right keyboard for me and my use cases.

 

The price makes me think - are these expected to be top sellers?

[CyberGene]

My daughter is really mad about “You’re still the one” by Shania Twain and we’ve been listening to it on repeat in the car on our way to the kindergarten and back for days now…

 

And so, if I listen carefully there’s some Hammond organ in the background 😉 Why wouldn’t the CK work for similar scenarios? How bad is the organ simulation? I mean, unless you’re in an organ trio, who’s gonna notice?

[summerinstereo]

24 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

My daughter is really mad about “You’re still the one” by Shania Twain and we’ve been listening to it on repeat in the car on our way to the kindergarten and back for days now…

 

And so, if I listen carefully there’s some Hammond organ in the background 😉 Why wouldn’t the CK work for similar scenarios? How bad is the organ simulation? I mean, unless you’re in an organ trio, who’s gonna notice?

 

No no no, it needs to be exactly the same as the recording with precisely zero deviation.

 

Even in songs where the organ is barely audible and/or not anything resembling the focus of the song.

 

Nothing else will do.

[stoken6]

On 3/15/2023 at 4:39 AM, MPN21 said:

I'd jump on a CK73 even better if the keys are from C to C.

+1 in waterfall format. Even just as a controller board for VB3/Mainstage/whatever. Add split outputs L/R and high trigger in a firmware update please.

 

Or as a hammer-action board (same action as P121 and CP73/YC73) for a lower-tier controller under a kronos or similar.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

15 hours ago, summerinstereo said:

 I can clearly see it's the right keyboard for me and my use cases.

 I remember your first post about adding a second keyboard (correct me if Im wrong) and I suggested a Korg Kross 61 as i was thinking of adding one as a top tier over my recently obtained Numa Cocal 2x to keep things super light weight..

 

I think you had a numa?

 

Since this thread started Im starting to think this could be a good alternative for a top tier board as you are.

 

I need to check its kg weight

...................................

 

Edit weight is 5.6kg ...lovely

Korg is around 4kg so thats amazing but the yammy seems very interesting at slightly more weight

[Adan]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

 

And so, if I listen carefully there’s some Hammond organ in the background 😉 Why wouldn’t the CK work for similar scenarios? How bad is the organ simulation? I mean, unless you’re in an organ trio, who’s gonna notice?

There's subtle background in a country song and there's organ trios, but there's many points in between.  Lotta subjectivity in deciding where on that spectrum the CK organ becomes an unacceptable compromise.

 

Keep in mind this forum is filthy with Hammond geeks.  I might be one of them.  These are people who say with a straight face "I don't care what the audience thinks, if the chorus effect doesn't sound 95% authentic I don't want to play it."  So you'll get a lot of opinions here but at the end of the day, we are not your audience.

[CyberGene]

34 minutes ago, Adan said:

Keep in mind this forum is filthy with Hammond geeks.  I might be one of them.  These are people who say with a straight face "I don't care what the audience thinks, if the chorus effect doesn't sound 95% authentic I don't want to play it."  So you'll get a lot of opinions here but at the end of the day, we are not your audience.

That's something I realized only very recently. I'm a Bulgarian, (a Eastern European), and maybe that's reason why I've probably seen a real Hammond organ only in a video, I wouldn't be surprised if there are just 10 of them in the entire country. Of course I like the sound and have listened to records that include Hammond organ but mostly Pink Floyd, modern funk/acid jazz bands like e.g. Incognito, where you can rarely hear a short organ solo, or more often a background comping which I'm not really sure uses a real Hammond at all. Then, more recently I started reading this forum and ended up purchasing a YC61 and then a YC73 but I quickly realized I know nothing about Hammond and all its settings, drawbars, chorus, Leslies, whatever. I don't even think I'm ever gonna play a Hammond sound in any of my gigs, let alone tweak drawbars in realtime. I'd be perfectly happy with a few ready made registrations and a realistic sounding Lesile speed transition. With all that in mind, it's indeed funny how one can get influenced by the crowd and I found myself rejecting keyboards because I've read here have no good clonewheel engine 😀 But frankly speaking, I just can't hear sh*t. On the other hand, I've recently started listening to the wonderful "One Finger Only" by The Drawbars which is basically our dear member analogika on Hammond and I can hear some kick-ass Hammond growls and noises and stuff that I haven't heard so far. I understand where people here are coming from. I guess in the end it all depends on what music will people use that clonewheel for and yes, where that boundary between country-pad and organ-trio is 🍻

 

BTW, I'm exactly the same fanatic about pianos 😀 And it wouldn't be wrong to say I'm one of the worst snobs in that regard, if you ask people on the PianoWorld forums where I used to participate a lot, where I would go to great lengths about how the lack of real escapement in digital piano actions is what makes them total thrash, why lack of half-pedaling makes a piano completely unplayable, etc., etc. If there was a CK thread on some of these piano oriented forums, you would certainly see it bash its acoustic pianos which even lack string resonance and the damper resonance is more a reverb thing than any real damper resonance. And don't get me started on GHS 😛

[Al Quinn]

21 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Perhaps we can assist my thought process on this. 

 

Pros/Cons of choosing CK61 over a controller keyboard like Keylab MkII or Nektar Panorama T6?

Pros

1. Onboard sounds when you don't have your laptop/tablet

2. Runs on Batteries

3. 5 Pin and USB MIDI

4. Faders/Drawbars are on the left side

5. Built in audio interface

6. Possibly better action (to be determined). 

7. We expect Yamaha build quality and Yamaha firmware/software 

 

Cons

1. $400 more expensive 

2. Less controllers

3. Keys are likely some % of a mm thinner than standard

4. Probably (at least at first) fewer preset mappings for popular VSTs - though I prefer to do it myself in Main Stage either way.

 

 

It looks a great value with many nice features and sounds. Certainly a nice keyboard for gigging, rehearsals, yard jams, boat jams, and the couch.

 

I expect:

- the action to be very good since Yamaha usually gets it right. 

- the midi implementation to be disappointing as Yamaha doesn't seem to care too much about this (e.g., they sometimes use SysEx where CC is clearly the correct choice -- so annoying!). 

 

I listened to a demo on YouTube and thought the B3 sounded weak (i.e., it doesn't sound like the B3 in my YC73 which is pretty good; perhaps more like the B3 in the CP4 which, for me, is unusable). Maybe I just caught a bad demo, idk. 

[DaBous]

35 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

 

It looks a great value with many nice features and sounds. Certainly a nice keyboard for gigging, rehearsals, yard jams, boat jams, and the couch.

 

I expect:

- the action to be very good since Yamaha usually gets it right. 

- the midi implementation to be disappointing as Yamaha doesn't seem to care too much about this (e.g., they sometimes use SysEx where CC is clearly the correct choice -- so annoying!). 

 

I listened to a demo on YouTube and thought the B3 sounded weak (i.e., it doesn't sound like the B3 in my YC73 which is pretty good; perhaps more like the B3 in the CP4 which, for me, is unusable). Maybe I just caught a bad demo, idk. 

 

In the Anderton demo on youtube they stated that the B3 engine in the CKs  is not the same one as in the YC series. It is sample based. So that is a bit of a downgrade from a clonewheel perspective.

[To B3]

How easy would it be to use an ipad with the Vb3m for organ (with drawbars and other controls mapped) and the internal sounds for everything else?

 

And save the "ipad as organ" as a preset, to be used on its own and as part of a split, for example?

 

Anyways, would love to see the editability of the organ. All the demos I heard were very brief and with bright registrations, would love to hear something with more overdrive and not so bright sounding to see if it´s good enough to my uses (blues, soul, rock´n roll, with proeminence of the organ in many points)

 

Love the fact that you can assign independent effects to a split. Huge advantage to my Roland VR09. 

 

In fact, from what I´ve heard, the similar priced VR09 has the edge on the organ and maybe the VA synths. Hope this board is an incentive to Roland to move their asses and release a new OS update LOL.

[allan_evett]

Yes, the drawbar organ tones do sound less realistic than those in the YC series. Having a drawbar model w/subsequently improved rotary effect (third version) has been great, though I did purchase my YC88 primarily for pianos/eps/clavs and especially the expanded FX section; so the organ model has been a good bonus. I've been using the Nord CD2 model via Stage 3, 76 since 2017, and Hammond/IK MM  B3-X iOS app more recently; so the clonewheel 'heavy lifting' is covered when needed.  And though the instrument does sound great overall, the interface on the YC is not that intuitive for me; definitely not something I can fly around on live. 

 

For lighter gigging with a country-rock 'microbrewery' trio I've been using a Roland RD88, and have just recently set up a couple of Scenes that utilize B3-X via iPad. Works well and sounds great, but the user interface is kludgy; especially when adding a 'module'. The CK88's UI is much quicker and user-friendly. While not quite at the level of those on the YC, the organs are clearly usable for variety gigging; they're also quite a bit beyond those in the RD88, and other basic ROMpler instruments. 

 

Still very tempted by a CK88. Yesterday I got onto the waiting list at Sweetwater; ETA is sometime in April, apparently. If this instrument still ticks the multiple boxes it appears to do, it'll replace the YC and RD quite well. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Sound mondo has been updated to support the CK line if anyone is interested to give that a look. 

[AnotherScott]

On 3/16/2023 at 8:49 AM, Al Quinn said:

I listened to a demo on YouTube and thought the B3 sounded weak (i.e., it doesn't sound like the B3 in my YC73 which is pretty good; perhaps more like the B3 in the CP4 which, for me, is unusable). Maybe I just caught a bad demo, idk. 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:24 AM, DaBous said:

In the Anderton demo on youtube they stated that the B3 engine in the CKs  is not the same one as in the YC series. It is sample based. So that is a bit of a downgrade from a clonewheel perspective.

Yes, it is the organ engine from the Reface YC, not from the YC61, though it does have some enhancements compared to the Reface implementation. I am hoping we'll hear some better demos than we've heard so far, but don't expect YC61 quality organs.

 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:29 AM, To B3 said:

How easy would it be to use an ipad with the Vb3m for organ (with drawbars and other controls mapped) and the internal sounds for everything else?

Just by itself? That should be easy, as far as drawbar and rotary controls go. Unfortunately, percussion and CV controls send sysex, so you would need interim MIDI mapping for those controls. Or possibly you could use a knob, since almost all the knobs send CCs, but none of the buttons do (except for rotary).

 

Using it in combination with internal sounds is a bit trickier. The CK has 4 external zones, but the drawbars do not send MIDI data through the zone function. so you'd have to set it up for VB3m to see the drawbars on the CK's global channel (as opposed to one of its external MIDI zone channels). This could get complicated. You don't want the internal organ engine to sound when you're doing this... you could probably handle that just by turning the volume control down on the board's internal organ sound. But for  a split, you'd also need to be able to restrict which keys VB3m would be responding to. The best approach is probably, again, some external MIDI mapping, that would allow youo to use the CK's external zones for key assignments, but also grab the drawbars from the main global MIDI channel while having your mapping device filter out all non-drawbar MIDI data from that global channel.

 

It's really a shame that you have to jump through hoops. This could be so much better with a few minor tweaks on Yamaha's end. They already provide MIDI filtering for the zones (e.g. you can specify whether zones should transmit pitch bend, mod wheel, foot controller data), they just don't provide that option for whether they should transmit drawbar data. They already send MIDI CC from drawbars and rotary controls, there would seem to be no reason they couldn't have sent CC (as opposed to sysex) for the percussion/CV controls. Heck, even if it were just the on/off functions!

 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:29 AM, To B3 said:

And save the "ipad as organ" as a preset, to be used on its own and as part of a split, for example?

Like most boards, you cannot save a MIDI assignment independently for easy repeated mix-and-match with internal sounds. In fact, off-hand, the only boards I know of that can do that are Montage and MODX. Kurzweil comes close, by allowing you to copy a zone from one multi/setup to another. AFAIK, nothing from Korg or Roland can even do that (i.e. Kronos/Nautilus and Fantom/Fantom-0 do not seem to have any comparable function). Being able to call up an external MIDI assignment the same way you'd call up an internal sound (so you can mix-and-match internal and external sounds interchangeably) is something I've talked about wanting for, geez, at least 10 years. (I think maybe the Viscount Physis might have been able to do it?)

 

As for the CK based on what we know so far, you can't even save your own modified versions of internal sounds for repeated use in subsequent mix-and-match combinations. Your customized sounds can only be saved within Live Sets, and the only way to use them again is to work with a copy of that Live Set. Other boards with the same limitation include Roland VR09/VR730, Nord Electro 6, probably all the Dexibells, Vox Continental, Numa Compact 2/2X. 

 

For anyone who may have a hard time envisioning the distinction I'm making here, it's kind of as if a Korg workstation had user Combis, but no user Programs, or if a Motif-series Yamaha had user Performances but no user Voices, or if a Kurzweil had user Setups/Multis but no user Programs, or if the current Fantoms had user Scenes but no user Tones, etc. Not quite as bad because the saved versions in the Live Sets do include more parameters than those other "combination" examples do, but similar in that there would be no easy way to re-use a customized sound in some other combination, if you couldn't save that modified sound as its own recallable element (Program/Voice/Tone).

 

This was essentially also a limitation of the Nord Stage 3, which they finally addressed in the Nord Stage 4 with the addition of their "Preset Library" function, I've lauded them for that in the NS4 thread (the closest the NS3 came was allowing you to copy one "panel" of a program to another, a panel being a customized set of up to 3 sounds).

 

So anyway, to get back to the question, you can save the VB3m setting for instant recall in a Live Set, but to mix-and-match that VB3m sound with other internal sounds without having to set it all up again from scratch, it seems you'd need to work on a copy of that same Live Set. 

 

On 3/16/2023 at 9:29 AM, To B3 said:

In fact, from what I´ve heard, the similar priced VR09 has the edge on the organ and maybe the VA synths. Hope this board is an incentive to Roland to move their asses and release a new OS update LOL.

 

Yeah, VA synth would be the other place VR-09 has an obvious advantage, not just in having some synth behavior that samples do not lend themselves to, but in being fully editable (via an iPad app, or 3rd-party PC/Mac editor).

 

I'd be surprised if we saw any more VR updates from Roland. And really, there's not much Roland could do to add other CK functions to the VR, since the knobbage just isn't there to support much more than it does, at least not without a bunch of menu-diving which kind of runs counter to the philosophy of the board. Yeah, it would be nice to see a better MIDI implementation, but if they haven't done it in 10 years, I doubt they're going to do it now. It's not like people haven't complained about it forever.

[CyberGene]

I'm wondering if we will see a Vox Continental successor that would compete with the CK, because even now the Vox has some advantages over the CK such as better organ engine (?), modeled VA and FM synth, more control over the synth engine through repurposing of the drawbar touchstrips. What it lacks is better split control, USB audio, display.

[To B3]

46 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

So anyway, to get back to the question, you can save the VB3m setting for instant recall in a Live Set, but to mix-and-match that VB3m sound with other internal sounds without having to set it all up again from scratch, it seems you'd need to work on a copy of that same Live Set. 

 

That would work for what I want actually. To make the VB3m act as the organ of a saved Live Set, in place of the internal organ sounds. Or, to address the limitations of control assigning, at least, instead of a full organ app, just using the GSi Rotary app when using the internal organ of the CK, disabling the internal leslie, of course. That way, the only mapped control I would need is the Leslie Fast/Slow button on the CK. And all the other sounds would be unaffected by it. If this works, would be a nice workaround.

 

But I still would like to see more of that internal organ sounds.

[pjd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Yes, it is the organ engine from the Reface YC, not from the YC61, though it does have some enhancements compared to the Reface implementation. I am hoping we'll hear some better demos than we've heard so far, but don't expect YC61 quality organs.

 

Just by itself? That should be easy, as far as drawbar and rotary controls go. Unfortunately, percussion and CV controls send sysex, so you would need interim MIDI mapping for those controls. Or possibly you could use a knob, since almost all the knobs send CCs, but none of the buttons do (except for rotary).

 

...

 

It's really a shame that you have to jump through hoops.

 

Definitely recycled Reface YC. Reface YC is 100% AWM2 sample-based. Wot? You expected Yamaha's new modeling tech for $1,000? 🙂

 

Scott, I agree that CK (and Reface YC) allow individual drawbar control of Farfisa, Vox, etc. MODX has a few individual Farf and Vox samples and the rest are combi's. But, hey, combo organ has three basic settings: ear-piercing, wheezy and less wheezy. 😃 Combo organs and nuance?

 

Scott is doing a public service by deep diving the zone/external control. I don't know how many times I've been burned by idiotic limitations or use of SysEx when it comes to external control. And, of course, it's not just Yamaha. All engineers should be forced to eat their own dog food when it comes to external control!

 

When buying any MIDI controller, buyer beware! Read the manuals before buying. Do mental experiments. Avoid ill-advised purchases. End of sermon. 🤐

 

Earlier I said that I could recreate all CK sounds on MODX except the (borrowed from Genos/SX900) pipe organs. Actually, I could sample via SampleRobot and create my own pipe organ voices on MODX. I did create my own using library samples.

 

Great discussion, thanks -- pj

 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/combo-organ-reface-yc/

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/combo-organ-montage-modx-genos/

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-sampling-genos-pipe-organ/

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-get-started-with-sample-robot/

 

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

My daughter is really mad about “You’re still the one” by Shania Twain and we’ve been listening to it on repeat in the car on our way to the kindergarten and back for days now…

 

And so, if I listen carefully there’s some Hammond organ in the background 😉 Why wouldn’t the CK work for similar scenarios? How bad is the organ simulation? I mean, unless you’re in an organ trio, who’s gonna notice?

 

Yeah, even a plain rompler organ is fine for that. And really, for most stuff you've heard on the radio for the last 40 years.

 

8 hours ago, CyberGene said:

 I don't even think I'm ever gonna play a Hammond sound in any of my gigs, let alone tweak drawbars in realtime. I'd be perfectly happy with a few ready made registrations and a realistic sounding Lesile speed transition. With all that in mind, it's indeed funny how one can get influenced by the crowd and I found myself rejecting keyboards because I've read here have no good clonewheel engine 😀 😛

 

Uh huh. :-) 

 

Every now and then, I have a gig with my old prog/classic rock guys, and I'll always have a clonewheel for that. But for the vast majority of my gigs this century (which have been wedding/private party things), I've used rompler organs. Not because I don't want the clonewheel... on the occasions I've had it, I've really liked having it, and I'll do more organ solos. But for the most part, the lightweight boards with strong organ have shortchanged me on something else I really want, meaning that having the clonewheel meant having to bring a third board, and I rarely want to do that. Things have gotten better in recent years, with boards like Kurzweil PC4-7 and Fantom-0 where you can get a "do-it-all top board" that has better-than-rompler organ capabilities. (As did Kronos and some Nords, but I rarely gigged with them, due to different limitations, for my purposes.)