Tired of Playing Horn Parts?

[HammondDave]

Ok… I am about ready to lose it!  When I joined my latest band (a great group of guys), I told them that I was totally not interested in playing horn parts on the keys as it always sounds like shit!  Now understand, I know that many of you do this, and that it is necessary for your working situation to do the best you can under the circumstances, but I have played in many horn bands and I am sorry, but there is no horn “Patch” that comes near the qualify of even a three piece horn section. 
 

So all is going well until the band leader tells us that he wants to do “My Old School” in this five piece classic rock band.  I have played that song hundreds of times in several horn bands, and frankly, I am spoiled. So I tell the band that I would prefer not to because I cannot do justice to those parts, even with professional horn sounds. Playing those parts,  along with the integral piano parts, are just too much to ask from this old keyboardist.  So the band leader says, “well do the best you can… It will sound great and I am sure that no one will know the difference….!’  
 

No it won’t! And I will know the difference!  And now he is talking about introducing Chicago songs into the repertoire!  OY!   
 

Yes, there are songs with horn parts that I cover on the Hammond, and that works for some tunes… but not all… certainly not the horn break in ”25 or 6 to 4”
 

So now I am feeling totally disrespected… I know that if I told these cats that I wanted to do some Deep Purple and the singer said that he would rather not, I would say.. “OK, that’s cool…”. 
 

So what do you cats think?  

[EricBarker]

That's why I bring a cheap C-Trumpet to gigs and just play the horn parts... on horn. C-Trumpet is nice because even if I learn the parts on keyboard, I don't have to transpose, they're just right there.

 

It doesn't matter if I'm just playing top part of a horn section, the audience is so jazzed to suddenly hear a real horn on stage, they don't really miss the harmonies, the guitarist is usually filling out the rest of the chord anyway. We did a number of tunes this way throughout the night, from a few Cake songs, Chicago, "Sgt Pepper", "Wake Me Up" (Wham), "Vehicle" (Ides of March), Blood Sweat & Tears. I had a lot of fun, and so did the audience, which is what matters.

 

All said, I did play trumpet up through college, and have enough chops to make most rock/pop stuff work. If you have some Alto sax or even trombone experience, that would work just as well. Audiences love a multi-instrumentalist, even if they're not pro level. A seasoned musician is a seasoned musician. Even if you only have cursory skills with an instrument, I suspect most keyboardists at our level would do a pretty good job pleasing a crowd on another instrument.

PBone and Tromba make some very usable plastic horns for super-cheap. My plastic C-Trumpet has become one of my greatest assets in my tool bag. And it's fun to change gears for a bit!

[D. Gauss]

I'm with ya on this. Play the horn parts on a different instrument (like you said, B3).  imo, no one cares.  remember, van halen was a top 40 cover band at one time.  Pretty sure no one worried about their missing horns, and it worked out kinda ok for them  

[HSS]

I hear you and agree with your sentiment... 

 

I quit a musically good soul / blues band with a really good lady singer a few months ago because they wanted to add 6 or 8 pop and disco songs to score more high dollar gigs.  The songs would have required me to cover horn and orchestration parts on keys. Having said this, I fully understood and appreciated the band's motivation because the lady singer and the lead guitarist play music for a living. 

 

If my priority was making coin, i probably would have stuck it out.  But life is too short and I'm old, my hair's long, my feet stink, I have a bad knee, I have family issues, and I confess that I can be cranky.  I play music for pleasure and to relieve stress.  I only want to play AP, EP, Hammond, and occasional clav and synth.   At this point in my life, I don't want to be a horn or string section for a band on the cheap.  Maybe I've become an old uncompromising A-hole but I am what I am. 

[kenheeter]

Whenever this comes up in a band that I play in I tell the guitar player to cover the horn parts.  Come to think of it I've been doing this so long that they all know better than to ask......

[Delaware Dave]

Pet peave in my current band.  I spend  more than 50% percent of my night playing horns. KC, Commodores, Blues Bros., Chicago, Michael Jackson, Blood Sweat and Tears, Stevie Wonder, Ides of March, and typically we string two or three artists songs together in a 'mash'.  Not only do I not want to be the horn section all night, it is alot of work. KC stuff, we string 4 or 5 songs together, its a flip back and forth between clav and horns (two completely different playing styles). I also do the intro to Get Down Tonight which is actually a guitar intro but they prefer i do it using a Clav. I would just like to do traditional keyboard parts, not all the instruments required but not in the band like strings, brass, sax, trumpet, flute, french horn, flugelhorn and harmonica.  When we finish a set (normally 75-90 minutes a set with no breaks in between songs, we roll song to song) I'm pretty tired...

[EricBarker]

KC? Only thing that comes to mind is King Crimson, and I'd KILL to play "21st Century Schizoid Man", let alone 4-5 songs! Though, I suspect you're talking about a different KC...

[ElmerJFudd]

I don’t mind playing horn parts, but of course they always sound better played by horn players.  
 

To that end, short of a $550 brass library with amazing options for brass arranging and all the articulations (what a pain in the ass for live) I prefer to play it as un-realistic as possible.  Synth brass, where it’s clearly a synth timbre.  JP-8000 brass, OBX, Mini Moog, DX7, D-50. Brassy, but a synth. 

[Delaware Dave]

26 minutes ago, EricBarker said:

KC? Only thing that comes to mind is King Crimson, and I'd KILL to play "21st Century Schizoid Man", let alone 4-5 songs! Though, I suspect you're talking about a different KC...

 

Unfortunately, it is this KC.  I like yours better....

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Let him walk on you now and you'll be the door mat forever. 

The down side is that it puts bad blood between you and the BL that could get toxic. But choking down the resentment of playing what you hate gets toxic too.

I faced a situation that was similar only in that there were several tunes that I openly stated I hated and being capable I played them like a pro. But my attitude got worse each time and I became the band grump in the fellas eyes now they think I'm a jerk. So I lost in the end anyways.

BTW the two new bands I play in like me.

[Mark Zeger]

As a trumpet player, I’d have greater respect for a keyboard player converting iconic horn lines to ripping organ chords than ROMpler brass.

 

The best guy I’ve seen (video, not in person) play decent horn parts on keys is Wix Wickens. There’s a Keyboard mag video interview that goes into detail about how he does it. 

[RABid]

I watched a part time local band perform Superstition with no horns and no keyboardist. Just two guitars and a bass. Surprisingly they pulled it off by making it their own and converting those parts to guitar riffs.

[Reezekeys]

My .02: real horn parts on keys sounding good depends on quite a few things. First and foremost is that you have to be into putting in the time to make them sound good - and for the kinds of horn parts your BL is talking about, that's a tall order. I am 100% with you on a firm "no" to this; then again he's the bandleader so you might get your walking papers. I would probably walk anyway, but that's me. It's more about the BL just not getting it!! I don't like working with those kinds of musicians. To knowingly sound bad because "people won't know the difference"? Seeya.

[Dave Bryce]

Totally with you on My Old School, Dave.  The piano part is too damn much fun to compromise.

 

I got into it with a BL recently over this with “Smooth”.  Between the piano and organ parts, my hands simply have better things to do.   I asked him: if there was a horn section in the band and no keyboard player, would he ask the horns to try and cover keyboard parts…?    

Of course not - ever. 

 

I don’t mind doing horns here and there if I have a free hand, or I can work something out that makes sense when I stack them under, say, a piano patch with a pedal controlling the horn volume (works nicely on Lady Madonna)…but the integrity of the keyboard parts is more important to me, for sure. 

 

dB

[HammondDave]

I blame the Mellotron and Synclavier for all this…

[KuruPrionz]

53 minutes ago, RABid said:

I watched a part time local band perform Superstition with no horns and no keyboardist. Just two guitars and a bass. Surprisingly they pulled it off by making it their own and converting those parts to guitar riffs.

I've done that, I arranged the bass part to follow a horn part in one section as well. 

Use what you got and keep the groove, no reason it won't work. People aren't there to hear Superstition played just like the record, they are there to have fun. So make it fun, simple. 

[drawback]

2 hours ago, kenheeter said:

Whenever this comes up in a band that I play in I tell the guitar player to cover the horn parts.  Come to think of it I've been doing this so long that they all know better than to ask......

'scuse me me to take this sideways for minute, but I always thought the lead slide guitar riffs in "The Long Run" were made to measure, even dreamed up as horn parts. Listen to the song that way. Horn lines played on other instruments can sound very cool if played with the right attitude. Again, you're an impressionist. Play the horn parts on your instrument.

[Adan]

"I don't do horn parts" has always been one of the first things I'll tell a prospective band, maybe even in the first communication.  Set that expectation up front.  I might decide later to cover a horn part here or there, but never with a horn patch. 

[The Real MC]

Years ago I have covered MOS playing both piano and the horn parts.  Did the horn parts sound like the real thing?  Hell no.

 

Give me real brass and reeds any day.

[Shamanzarek]

There are some horn parts I like playing on keys. One band I play with does "Can't Take My Eyes Off You". That one I really like and I switch between Vibes and Strings as well. One of my keyboards has a raunchy Sax sound that I layer with Glockenspiel for the recurring theme in "Born to Run". That Sax sound also works pretty well for the Sax solo. We also do "Sweet Caroline" for which I use a French Horn layered with other Brass which is effective.

 

Another band I play with picks songs with heavy horn parts that don't work so well for me and to me doesn't make much sense for them to do without real horns. They do "Jump Jive and Wail" which is a great song but I can't do justice to the horn parts on keys. They also do "Tenth Avenue Freeze out" which has a heavy horn section and prominent piano. I just play the piano part which carries the song all the way through. Nobody has said anything to me about leaving out the horns yet.

[dazzjazz]

Gosh it’s such an 80s paradigm to expect the keyboard player to play horn parts. I stopped being that guy back then. You should continue to refuse. 
Screw it!

[Tom Williams]

Minority of 1 here, apparently.  Although I don't let them push me around when they want keys plus brass plus strings, I nevertheless enjoy the challenge of playing brass parts and making them sound as much as possible like a real horn band.  For years I've been a proponent of idiomatic playing -- voicing and articulating winds or strings (or for that matter, guitars and mallets) in ways that the real instrument would play, and not like a keyboardist playing samples.

Way back In junior high school I taught myself brass arranging by poring over a (now out of print) book of Chicago transcriptions.  Rewrote wind parts as necessary for various junior high-through-college ensembles over the years.  Arranged stuff of my own.  Channeled James Pankow for years.  On the rare occasions I got to set up a real horn band, I decided I preferred two saxes in the middle voices, not just one.  I love working with real wind instruments.  But I am unlikely to have a horn band in rural West Virginia.

 

Regarding 25 or 6 to 4:  With the exception of the double-tonguing 16th notes at the end of the 6th measure of the horn intro, I think I have it duplicated pretty durned well.  Not only does my band enjoy playing it, but the audience and even other bands go apesh*t.

 

For the octave (!) trombones after the line "fighting just to stay awake," I pull down the pitch bend wheel a whole step, play D3 and D4, and then move the pitch bend wheel up to the other end, a major third up, mimicing the trombone riff going from 6th to 2nd position, C to E.

 

The patch I use starts with Kurzweil trombets (or maybe the trumpbones patch), and I added some saxes in the middle, with crossfades to slightly emphasize  the different instruments in different ranges, but still mainting a bit of a blend throughout the range.

[Tom Williams]

6 hours ago, HammondDave said:

I blame the Mellotron and Synclavier for all this…

I blame the Mighty Wurlitzer theater organs.

[JamPro]

I find it interesting that ONLY the keyboard players are called upon to do horn charts - despite the wide availability of guitar systems that can drive sample playback devices.  OF COURSE, the guitar player can't be asked to play horn parts because they 1) think sampled sounds suck; 2) don't what to have to schlep around the equipment needed to play horn parts; 3) can't possible be expected to make the technology work or troubleshoot it when it doesn't; 4) need to save their mojo for the all-important cucumber-in-the-pocket guitar solos (which are 'natch much MORE important for the song than the ferschluggener horn parts anyways).

 

When the BL wants horn parts without horn players to play them, it is no longer a musical show: it is a vanity project.  And if the BL wants me to stretch myself for their personal vanity project, they had better be paying me a lot.

[Threadslayer]

I played horn parts as seldom as possible, but when it was inevitable, I took it as a challenge to be as clandestine as possible. I would find a way to sit in the mix at just the right spot to give the feel of a horn section without making it obvious that it was a cheesy synth patch getting above itself. If I made it through the song without some audience member peering at me suspiciously, I called it a win.

[D. Gauss]

11 hours ago, RABid said:

I watched a part time local band perform Superstition with no horns and no keyboardist. Just two guitars and a bass. Surprisingly they pulled it off by making it their own and converting those parts to guitar riffs.

this not so local guy, (who helped write it, and actually recorded it before stevie), did it kinda well too 

 

[Stokely]

I have a "thing" about horns.  Horns on keyboards trigger my "Cheese sensors" in a way that strings and most other instruments do not.  I realize this is totally devoid of logic and hypocritical

I do the barest minimum and sometimes not even that.  I don't care if there are horns in the real song.  If I do play them, stabs are about it.   I refuse to play a saxophone solo on keyboards so we normally just substitute a guitar solo.   They are trying to get me to play the solo on "Cool Change" so I'll play a laid-back Moog synth solo instead of some awful sample.

Case in point, "Walking on Sunshine", I usually just use a B3 sound to play the horn part.   Other times I'll use a synth sound.  On Superstition our guitarist plays the horn line during the song so I keep playing the clav, which seems more important to me (I do play the horn "chords" at the slower chorus or pre-chorus, and finally do play the faster part when we end on it.)  

I do appreciate the effort and difficulty of some players to make the horns sound realistic, but that's a hill I choose not to walk let alone die on.   

Edit: I just realized the OP was talking about that Chicago tune--my band talked about covering that, but there's no way I would attempt to play that on horns.   Those horns are just too organic and realistic IMO.   Instead we would have done Motley Crue's version, and I would have played Deep Purple style organ.   They used a wah guitar and I thought it sounded pretty great.   Before you cringe in horror and abject distaste, that cover is probably the best thing I've ever heard from the Crue!

[TommyS]

Ok,, here is my “I don’t do” list: 

I don’t do horn parts

I don’t run sound

I don’t run lights

I don’t store/transport/ PA gear

I don’t wait weeks or months to get paid

I  don’t spend hours and hours

transcribing top 40 songs  on two days notice  for $45 and $4 from the tip bucket

I don’t rehearse AFTER the gig

 feel free to add your own,,,,,

[ABECK]

I love Roger King's (Steve Hackett band) handles the horns on this guitar HEAVY tune.  Sounds like a great mix of synth and samples.  Doesn't overplay, but adds a lot.  

Starts to pick up nicely around 5:00, as they play the first part half speed.

 

[kaptainkeys]

4 minutes ago, TommyS said:

Ok,, here is my “I don’t do” list: 

I don’t do horn parts

I don’t run sound

I don’t run lights

I don’t store/transport/ PA gear

I don’t wait weeks or months to get paid

I  don’t spend hours and hours

transcribing top 40 songs  on two days notice  for $45 and $4 from the tip bucket

I don’t rehearse AFTER the gig

 feel free to add your own,,,,,

I don't mind doing orchestral stuff that much (but I refuse for that to be the only thing I play the whole night) that is just my personal feeling, but...

I don't run sound from the stage (if you want me to do that, get yourself a different KB player and I'll run sound, to me the mixer is just as important as any other instrument)

I don't transport PA gear unless it is specifically part of my rig (like a submixer, vocoder mic, or wedge/amp for stage volume, not a monitor speaker)

I don't do rehearsals if the other members of the band haven't practiced (rehearsals are for working out kinks and making sure everything sounds cohesive as a unit, not time for the bass player to look at a chart for the first time or for the EVH wannabe to run his solo one more time because he is so awesome)

I don't tolerate musicians who complain about soundcheck (both as a keyboard player and an FOH sound engineer)

I'm sure I'll think of more later