One keyboard for most realistic sounds - which do you choose? (no plugins allowed)

[B4i]

For getting to sounds quickly without menu diving (including turning efx on/off), IMO Nord Stage 2/3/4 is a good choice.

 

To my ears the pianos and organs are great. They work well for me in a live rock/pop mix. The synth section is good, but if you are heavily into synthesis, this isn't the board for you. The Stage will give you access to good sampled sounds and some good standard synth sounds - the efx are nice for these. Also the Stage 2/3 is limited to two synth sounds and the Stage 4, three synth sounds in a patch. If you want to create large multi-part patches, and/or sequence with the board, the Stage isn't for you.

 

For me if you are looking to have a single board to prioritise Piano and Organ with some synth/sample sounds, its a good choice. 

 

I have a 2EX-88 and play in an 80s rock/pop/synth band. Its limitations around the synth section are too much for me so team with a Nord Wave and Mainstage. That said the synth section provides arp parts and pads a plenty, and having one knob per function for live tweaking is great.   

 

 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Not sure about the organ. I didn't have time to go inside it. Do you get all the specific B3 settings to set up like on a Nord

 

yes

[Adan]

The way I look at it, there are lots of choices amongst today's new keyboards that sound sufficiently realistic for just about any audience.  There are none that sound sufficiently realistic in all areas for my own ears.  But usually it's not about pleasing my ears -- usually it's about how to pull off a gig in a practical, reasonable way.  At any given time my keyboard rig is designed around gigging needs rather than ultimate sound realism.  If realism was the only goal, I'd join the Steve Nathan Nation and go all software.

[cphollis]

18 hours ago, DJkeys said:

You might want to take a look at the long Nord Stage 4 thread:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/184719-nord-stage-4-announced

 

It is discussed in detail along with comparisons to all of the boards mentioned in this thread.  There is a 73 key piano action version that you may be interested in.  Of course, you won't be able to play one for many months-

 

-dj

Actually, I didn't see any real synth on his shopping list, which would make him a candidate for the less-outragesouly-priced Nord Electro.  He'll love the mellotron samples

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Yeah I was going to ask about budget... But the most realistic bread and butter sounds may be the Jupiter 80.  

 

Do you need a workstation?  

 

I def don't think Nord when I think bread and butter (rompler stuff) but they may be able to do it...

 

I'd probably look at Kronos/Nautilus and that Fantom series.  Depending on the budget though, I'd modify my suggestions.

 

 

 

[Steve Nathan]

6 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

However even with a beast of a gaming laptop and an RME Babyface I hear little crackles every 15 seconds or so.

FWIW:  I use a 4 year old MBP, Catalina 2.4 GHz 8-Core , i9 w/64GB & 2TB internal drive, with a little UA Apollo Solo to play outside the house, and I have no pops, clicks, or crackles at all.  It's certainly do-able with current technology, and the engineers and producers routinely comment on the quality of sounds I provide vs.the sounds provided by players who show up with Nords, Kurzweils, Yamahas,  Korgs etc. 

[Tusker]

6 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I have tried the laptop vst route and I agree that is where to find the best sounds. However even with a beast of a gaming laptop and an RME Babyface I hear little crackles every 15 seconds or so. I have tried everything with settings, different programs, etc to get it running rock solid and it hasn't happened for me. 

 

I think the Nautilus is great. I am glad you are going all hardware. 👍 Software is not for everyone and I don't intend to derail the thread.

 

But it's important not to learn the wrong lesson. I am guessing it was a Windows gaming laptop? Windows is great but needs more bullet-proofing as you noticed. Today's Macs are closer to hardware: just plug it in and play. That's not germane to your current needs though, just a thought for the future. I'm not being a fanboy. I've used both Macs and Windows for audio. For some audio purposes, (like a VEPRO server) I would use Windows instead of Macs. We are all looking for the best tool for a particular job. Which takes us back to ...

 

With hardware keyboards, a lot of it is personal and tactile. I would definitely think of the Nord/Yamaha CPs differently from the workstations like Nautilus and Kronos. They are less customizable but so much more immediate. Is that a good trade-off? Only you can decide. All the best.

 

 

[ProfD]

11 hours ago, Docbop said:

Seems like sampling keyboards is something that needs robotics.   A good full sample is many passes over all 88 keys and trying to play the same velocity for 88 keys, then add in the pedal passes, longs and shorts, micing variations etc.   So many passes to get a good sample.   That doesn't even get into all the editing of the samples.

Over the past 30 years or so, that approach has been tried to varying degrees.

 

Manufacturers have figured how through sampling and modeling how to get a decent facsimile of any sound. 

 

Every electronic KB instrument could be a compromise in terms of sound, action, workflow, etc. It really comes down to the musician playing it.

 

The objective should be to cop an instrument that does not impede or interfere with getting music from the brain to fingertips and performance of it. 

 

Picking an instrument comes down to the FTEC (Finger to Ear Connection).  Play an instrument and it doesn't take very long to know whether or not it works.😎

[harmonizer]

22 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I am considering two boards, one for piano action and one for organ. But for this thread let's stick to the idea of just one board with piano action......

If you are actually planning to buy two boards, one for piano action and one for organ, then I recommend you stop asking about getting just one board with piano action. It totally changes the selection process: you might find one board that meets 2 out of your 3 needs (AP, EP and organ), and a second board that fills the rest, where both of them would have been ruled out for not meeting all your needs. And the 2 boards you end up with could satisfy you more, and cost way less.

[TommyRude]

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I have tried the laptop vst route and I agree that is where to find the best sounds. However even with a beast of a gaming laptop and an RME Babyface I hear little crackles every 15 seconds or so. I have tried everything with settings, different programs, etc to get it running rock solid and it hasn't happened for me. Nowadays, it seems that hardware sounds have improved quite a bit since I started that journey, so now I'm looking for something I can "just play!" without having to be a "computer guy." I use the computer plenty for recording and everything else, so looking forward to getting away from it and try the old approach again.

Not to beat a dead horse, your mind is made up, understood.  But a few notes..

 

I was in a similar mode, wasn't interested in being "computer guy".  However, getting over that self imposed moniker, it turns out that when using a laptop/iPad for sound sources, it ends up not being computer guy, it ends up being "musician guy".  It's actually much easier than using some of the hardware choices - the larger screen makes it easier to understand, program, get the sounds you want and need. And those amazing sounds, they unlock your real value as a player and end up providing a great deal more satisfaction.

 

As for hardware sounds getting better, absolutely.  BUT - plugin sounds are also getting better, and in my view - exponentially faster than hardware.

 

As for the snap crackle pops?  Not sure what's happening there, probably the laptop.  The Macs - at this stage - seem to be the best for music applications, both in the studio and live.

 

Good luck with the search!

[allan_evett]

37 minutes ago, Steve Nathan said:

FWIW:  I use a 4 year old MBP, Catalina 2.4 GHz 8-Core , i9 w/64GB & 2TB internal drive, with a little UA Apollo Solo to play outside the house, and I have no pops, clicks, or crackles at all.  It's certainly do-able with current technology, and the engineers and producers routinely comment on the quality of sounds I provide vs.the sounds provided by players who show up with Nords, Kurzweils, Yamahas,  Korgs etc. 

Steve - 

I'm curious as to what you use as a controller for that MBP-based rig. Though session work is infrequent for me now - a virtual call, here and there, I'd now take out a single keyboard and my older MBP-Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 combination if I got called for anything away from home. So much great software available now.  And much easier to transport the needed gear, at least most of the time!

 

[sleepwalk]

1 hour ago, TommyRude said:

Not to beat a dead horse, your mind is made up, understood.  But a few notes..

 

I was in a similar mode, wasn't interested in being "computer guy".  However, getting over that self imposed moniker, it turns out that when using a laptop/iPad for sound sources, it ends up not being computer guy, it ends up being "musician guy".  It's actually much easier than using some of the hardware choices - the larger screen makes it easier to understand, program, get the sounds you want and need. And those amazing sounds, they unlock your real value as a player and end up providing a great deal more satisfaction.

 

As for hardware sounds getting better, absolutely.  BUT - plugin sounds are also getting better, and in my view - exponentially faster than hardware.

 

As for the snap crackle pops?  Not sure what's happening there, probably the laptop.  The Macs - at this stage - seem to be the best for music applications, both in the studio and live.

 

Good luck with the search!

I really don't know why it hasn't worked out. I was really excited to do it that way. I have a Lenovo gaming laptop that should be plenty powerful, 32 gb ram, 1tb SSD. Even when I just play a lightweight plugin I get little noises. It is not the processor or drive or ram being overworked. I guess it's just because it is PC. Really no idea. I would use it if I could get it to work, but it's been 2-3 years now. When I mix down what I played it sounds great. But when playing I hear the little noises.

 

Anyway, it has been a long time since I got some cool hardware so I am due for some anyway. My 88 key controller is a Fatar from the 90s, so at the very least I will be improving my keybed.

[Steve Nathan]

1 hour ago, allan_evett said:

Steve - 

I'm curious as to what you use as a controller for that MBP-based rig. Though session work is infrequent for me now - a virtual call, here and there, I'd now take out a single keyboard and my older MBP-Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 combination if I got called for anything away from home. So much great software available now.  And much easier to transport the needed gear, at least most of the time!

A Privia.  

[MAJUSCULE]

27 minutes ago, sleepwalk said:

I really don't know why it hasn't worked out. I was really excited to do it that way. I have a Lenovo gaming laptop that should be plenty powerful, 32 gb ram, 1tb SSD. Even when I just play a lightweight plugin I get little noises. It is not the processor or drive or ram being overworked. I guess it's just because it is PC. Really no idea. I would use it if I could get it to work, but it's been 2-3 years now. When I mix down what I played it sounds great. But when playing I hear the little noises.

 

Anyway, it has been a long time since I got some cool hardware so I am due for some anyway. My 88 key controller is a Fatar from the 90s, so at the very least I will be improving my keybed.

 

I'm no expert on VST setups, not even somewhat knowledgable, but something sounds fishy to me. Yes, Macs are more popular and a large part of that is the UI/UX that's optimized for easy operation. But PCs are by no means out of the question and certainly do get used by pros all over. I don't know what the issue is, but I think there's gotta be a problem in the chain somewhere. Merits more troubleshooting IMNSHO. I know that's frustrating to do, and I likely would feel as you do about going back to hardware if I felt like I had exhausted all possibilities so far. But yeah, there's gotta be a fix for those pops.

[Steve Nathan]

2 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I really don't know why it hasn't worked out. I was really excited to do it that way. I have a Lenovo gaming laptop that should be plenty powerful, 32 gb ram, 1tb SSD. Even when I just play a lightweight plugin I get little noises. It is not the processor or drive or ram being overworked. I guess it's just because it is PC. Really no idea. I would use it if I could get it to work, but it's been 2-3 years now. When I mix down what I played it sounds great. But when playing I hear the little noises.

I suspect you have that computer loaded down with Non-music (maybe Gaming) bloat.  My MBP stays pretty much clear of everything except music programs with an internet browser/email account.  I don't know what the PC equivalent to Mac's "Activity Monitor" is, but I'd guess that if you checked it while p laying live, you'd see a lot of resource power active elsewhere.

[GovernorSilver]

17 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

There is truth to that (even on more moderately priced arrangers, like my Korg PA1000), but not for the "pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads" sounds that the OP is talking about. 

 

You never know, he might have actually liked the samples of those instruments.   Enough to meet his requirements.   This is assuming he actually lays hands on one of those arranger keyboards.

 

Yamaha Genos has Super Articulation 2 pianos that are not on any lower-cost Yamaha arranger, as far as I can tell.   Some of the organ sounds on my PSR-SX600 have Super Articulation but i haven't gone out of my way to test it, as I've been more drawn to the S. Art. guitar tones.

 

I suppose you know better than me how Korg's Defined Nuance Control technology works for adding more realism to sample-based instruments.  I have not tried a DNC enabled piano sound.

 

Anyway, I guess he likes the Nautilus so maybe this arranger talk is moot now.

[AnotherScott]

46 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

Yamaha Genos has Super Articulation 2 pianos that are not on any lower-cost Yamaha arranger, as far as I can tell. 

There are no SA2 pianos. 

 

It's a tech for performance-based articulations, which are not really factors on a piano (unlike, say, a sax or a violin, where the same note is likely to sound different depending on, for example, what note you played immediately before). Here's Yamaha's explanation of SA2;

 

 

46 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

I suppose you know better than me how Korg's Defined Nuance Control technology works for adding more realism to sample-based instruments.  I have not tried a DNC enabled piano sound.

Likewise, no DNC piano sounds.

[GovernorSilver]

14 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

There are no SA2 pianos. 

 

 

One of Jeremy See's criticisms of the PSR-SX600 is that its Concert Grand tone is not a Super Articulation piano like "higher priced Yamaha arranger keyboards".

 

Oh well, this is off topic now, so never mind.

[AnotherScott]

3 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

Are you sure?

 

I could have sworn Jeremy See cited SA piano as a plus for Genos vs. the lower cost Yamaha arrangers.

According to the data list, there are SA pianos, but not SA2. The tech is substantially different. As of now, SA2 is not available on anything but Genos. SA is available on lower arrangers, and a variation of it is on Montage/MODX, though relying more on manual initiation rather than having the board "intelligently" make decisions based on how you're playing. There's a good discussion of it at https://sandsoftwaresound.net/sa-and-sa2-yamahas-words/

 

As for what an SA piano is, I think it's a stretch of the terminology. ;-) Possibly having to do with implementing string/pedal resonances and/or key-off noises. 

[GovernorSilver]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

According to the data list, there are SA pianos, but not SA2. The tech is substantially different. As of now, SA2 is not available on anything but Genos. SA is available on lower arrangers, and a variation of it is on Montage/MODX, though relying more on manual initiation rather than having the board "intelligently" make decisions based on how you're playing. There's a good discussion of it at https://sandsoftwaresound.net/sa-and-sa2-yamahas-words/

 

As for what an SA piano is, I think it's a stretch of the terminology. 😉 Possibly having to do with implementing string/pedal resonances and/or key-off noises. 

 

Maybe the OP would have liked SA too.   I have a feeling he won't care if its SA or SA2.

 

None that would matter though if neither technology responds to his fingers on the keys in a way that pleases him.    Hours of study of manuals, technical specifications, etc. is not a good substitute for that hands-on time.

 

 

[K K]

14 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Today I played a Nautilus 88, which I guess has the same sounds as the Kronos?

 

Hi there,

 

Most of the Nautilus sounds are the same as in the Kronos, with some updated and a few new ones. The learning curve for those two machines is important, but as opposed to many I think that the more you can customize and fine tune everything with a synth, the best it is. So you can for sure adjust the sounds as you wish. Also, the CX-3 engine offers quite a few "standard" Hammond parameters and IMHO sounds more realistic than the Kurzweil KB3.

 

Too bad the Nautilus dropped the physical sliders, because on the Kronos you can use them as Hammond drawbars. Also, Korg decided to drop the aftertouch under the Nautilus keyboard, something many find a poor decision. Finally, you should have the Mellotron samples in the Nautilus Voice Name List as well.

[sleepwalk]

10 hours ago, harmonizer said:

If you are actually planning to buy two boards, one for piano action and one for organ, then I recommend you stop asking about getting just one board with piano action. It totally changes the selection process: you might find one board that meets 2 out of your 3 needs (AP, EP and organ), and a second board that fills the rest, where both of them would have been ruled out for not meeting all your needs. And the 2 boards you end up with could satisfy you more, and cost way less.

I really don't want 2. I want 1. But if I do 1 and I'm not satisfied, I could consider 2. But that's really not what I want.

[sleepwalk]

6 hours ago, Steve Nathan said:

I suspect you have that computer loaded down with Non-music (maybe Gaming) bloat.  My MBP stays pretty much clear of everything except music programs with an internet browser/email account.  I don't know what the PC equivalent to Mac's "Activity Monitor" is, but I'd guess that if you checked it while p laying live, you'd see a lot of resource power active elsewhere.

I think it's called Task Manager. Well I'll take a look. I don't have any games, I don't play them. I bought the laptop for making music. I have tried the lightest possible load, nothing else open but Cantibile running the lightest vst and still get noises. I think something is just getting stuck somewhere but no idea.

[Konnector]

Some PC laptops will NEVER work properly for live music applications. Period. Doesn't matter how powerful they are. (And they'll never rival the power of a desktop) Many are compromised by design, and there's nothing you can do to change that. IRQ sharing is one common problem, and a bad problem to have for this type of application. Many laptops don't give you the option of changing that sort of thing and you end up with pops and clicks. I've seen it happen too many times to people over the years. They are not the same as a desktop PC. I'm a PC user and have been using desktop PC based DAWs for many years. They work great, but I would not go with a Windows based laptop for low latency live use unless it's custom built by one of the DAW builders out there that can guarantee it will perform properly.  You can buy one of those and it'll be fine, but they're not cheap. (Mind you Apple's no bargain either.)

[Nathanael_I]

Apple laptops have worked flawlessly for me for over a decade. Anything they currently make will be fine. You don’t need a $4k MacBook Pro to run a keys rig, though they will do that very well if you want.  Audio almost rides for free on modern systems unless you are really ambitious. 

[Paul Woodward]

I kinda get your train of thought. I used to have the 'Rick Wakeman' rig; 88 weighted on bottom for piano, waterfall organ above it, mono synth for leads, a few digital (D50 etc) types, probably a DX too. You get the idea.

I quit gigging and looked for a 'one board does it all' and ended up with an Alesis Fusion 88 which was the 'budget' Korg Oasys at the time. It was bloody great but temperamental and, as you can guess, it became outdated pretty quickly.

Just about the only tech (other than a computer) to evolve and stay current is the iPad IMO. Korg release some great apps for it (mono/poly, Polysix etc.). 

Always loved Yamaha for piano (last one was a CP4) but I thought the Kronos was the answer to my dreams. I got a Mac and Logic and never used the Kronos so it went.

I realised I just wanted a board like the Yamaha, sounds of the Kronos (always loved Korg for synths) but none of the workstation so you can imagine my joy when they released the Korg Grandtage. RH3 board and Kronos engines...but what a price. So I skipped it until I picked up a mint condition GS73 on Reverb last year with stand and gig bag for £500!!

I would say I prefer it to the Yamaha for pianos and the EP's are great. At that price it just became a nice weighted controller for my studio that I enjoy playing. Deciding to return to gigging I added a Yamaha YC61 for the waterfall keybed and great EP's and organs so I am covered for all the 'traditional' sounds. Popped an iPad in there so I can also add synths (Moog, Korg and more) if I need them but without the investment in dedicated (and expensive) hardware synths.

In essence, the Korg GS and the iPad is a frankenstein Kronos on a budget as I have most of the Korg apps (MS-20, Polysix) that you get in the Kronos.

Rambled on a but there, but bottom line is, no one keyboard can do it all really. 

Surprised that there are so few suggesting the Nord Stage as an 'all in one', but then its just a great sounding board, not a workstation.

[sleepwalk]

4 hours ago, Konnector said:

Some PC laptops will NEVER work properly for live music applications. Period. Doesn't matter how powerful they are. (And they'll never rival the power of a desktop) Many are compromised by design, and there's nothing you can do to change that. IRQ sharing is one common problem, and a bad problem to have for this type of application. Many laptops don't give you the option of changing that sort of thing and you end up with pops and clicks. I've seen it happen too many times to people over the years. They are not the same as a desktop PC. I'm a PC user and have been using desktop PC based DAWs for many years. They work great, but I would not go with a Windows based laptop for low latency live use unless it's custom built by one of the DAW builders out there that can guarantee it will perform properly.  You can buy one of those and it'll be fine, but they're not cheap. (Mind you Apple's no bargain either.)

Thanks for your input. I think I'm in the category you're talking about.

[sleepwalk]

4 hours ago, Nathanael_I said:

Apple laptops have worked flawlessly for me for over a decade. Anything they currently make will be fine. You don’t need a $4k MacBook Pro to run a keys rig, though they will do that very well if you want.  Audio almost rides for free on modern systems unless you are really ambitious. 

Will an Ipad work flawlessly, and if so, which one do they use? Does it require an audio interface, or does it have one built-in?

[CyberGene]

Just buy a Mac with Apple Silicon and thank me later.

[sleepwalk]

Tonight I played a MODX8 and a Fantom 8. They both were good but I wasn't blown away. I think I still liked the Nautilus better overall. And I don't think any of those three do the Hammond as well as a Nord does. But maybe that's just because I can easily pull up the sounds I like on a Nord because the organ controls are right there and straightforward.

 

I always felt that when I got back into hardware it would be a Nord. I always thought they sounded the best. But I have heard people say that they haven't come out with new sounds for awhile, and the other brands have surpassed them. So I am investigating these claims. I don't know.... Maybe they caught up with Nord. But just because something is newer doesn't mean it is better. People get caught up in that. I get it, I don't like the fact that the Nord is red and attracts unnecessary attention either, but I don't let that influence what I hear and experience when I play it. Also people complain about the price. We are not talking about which board has the lowest price lol. It's just funny to me how people get distracted by these other aspects. The most important thing is the sound and functionality. If I really hate the red that much, I can paint it black.

 

Still looking around though, there are a lot of different keyboards to try, if I can find places to demo them.