One keyboard for most realistic sounds - which do you choose? (no plugins allowed)

[Synthaholic]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:57 PM, GovernorSilver said:

On another forum, someone claimed that Yamaha and Korg reserve their finest quality sample playback tech for their high-end arranger keyboards - the ones that go for $5000 or more.   It's not just the sample files themselves but all the behavioral modeling and other modeling stuff that goes with it.

 

If you have an unlimited budget those high-end arrangers are worth a look.

I bought a Korg Pa4X and sent it back the next week, much to the chagrin of my sales guy. I assumed the pianos, EPs were from the Kronos. Nope! Lesser quality, from a different line. I was shocked! Shocked, I tell ya! Very disappointing. 

[sleepwalk]

1 hour ago, MikeT156 said:

Having great sounds can be inspiring when you write your own material. I don't know that any one KB can have ALL great sounds, or there would only be one company making it. Think about it. Back in the dark ages I had a Yamaha Electric Grand, an Oberheim, a Prophet 5, an Oberheim drum machine, a Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase piano that I used for live shows. These days we don't have to lug around all that equipment, but there are compromises we have to make.

 

My more recent set up was a Motif ES8, I used the internal 16 track recorder, loaded new sounds from Yamaha's library, and sound effects I got off the internet. My rig is dated, but I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter. I did a one man band gig and got a lot of great jobs because I was a substitute for a band and didn't play too loud. I could sing and did a lot of Billy Joel songs when they were popular. There is nothing like having a Real Rhodes piano for songs Just the way you are, and James.

 

I still have my suitcase Rhodes, and IMO it is the genuine sound. nothing sounds like a REAL Rhodes. Its a bear to move, so it stays home.

 

Choose wisely.

Yes I used to gig with a Rhodes and a Hammond XK-2 on top in a soul-jazz band. This was before the Nord boards were out with the good Rhodes sounds. I feel like they were the first one that was acceptable. I still have the Rhodes, but like you, I'm not moving it anymore.

 

The modern boards sound good. Yeah, it's not the same as the real thing, but, I still enjoy playing the sound, so it'll be great..... I got the Motif Rack years ago because people said it had a good Rhodes sound...but I never liked it and never used it. I do like the modern ones though.

[sleepwalk]

16 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

I bought a Korg Pa4X and sent it back the next week, much to the chagrin of my sales guy. I assumed the pianos, EPs were from the Kronos. Nope! Lesser quality, from a different line. I was shocked! Shocked, I tell ya! Very disappointing. 

On the Kurzweil site there is a comparison chart. I was comparing the PC4 to the Forte, it said:

 

* These pianos are an optimized version of the Forte® Grand pianos, derived from the same quality content but using less samples.

 

So the Forte would I guess have a better piano sounds than the PC4. Not sure about the other sounds.

 

And not sure about other brands. Supposedly the Nautilus has the same sounds as the Kronos, but some people say the Kronos sounds better and "fuller", which I don't know if they are imagining this, or if they are actually higher resolution or more samples...

[CEB]

Of the pianos I mess with on the PC4  I like programs 1-13 and 18-22.  I don't like any of the 7 ft grands, uprights or the out of tune piano settings (honky tonk, pub, ect... )  But I set the velocity and pressure curves to Hard 1.  If I set velocity to Light 1  and pressure to light then the 7 ft pianos can sparkle and they come to life.   But then my favorite pianos don't respond as well to gentler playing.   

 

The pianos in the PC4 totally depend on how you play and where you set the Velocity and Pressure Map.  I have no experience with the Forte but at that price point I would expect it even mo better.

 

If there is a piano program on the PC4 that isn't working for you go to Global--Main2 screen and play with the Velocity and Pressure Map settings.  Currently I am running these setting and I like them but I play piano standards and mostly at home.  In a loud electric band I might change things.  But in my 5 piece blues combo I this this will work fine. 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

20 hours ago, Synthaholic said:

I bought a Korg Pa4X and sent it back the next week, much to the chagrin of my sales guy. I assumed the pianos, EPs were from the Kronos. Nope! Lesser quality, from a different line. I was shocked! Shocked, I tell ya! Very disappointing. 

Yeah, the arrangers come out of Korg Italy, a completely different design team from Korg Japan. While they may share some tech, the Kronos engines are not in any of the arrangers.

 

Yamaha similarly has segregated synth and arranger divisions. Some Genos sounds are indeed the most impressive Yamaha has to offer... but its organ is not as good as the YC series its EPs are not as good as the YC/CP models, and numerous other sounds lag behind Montage/MODX. 

 

8 hours ago, CEB said:

Of the pianos I mess with on the PC4  I like programs 1-13 and 18-22. 

Recital (5) is my piano of choice. 

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, MikeT156 said:

I don't know that any one KB can have ALL great sounds

True. But with the focus on "pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings," I think there are a number of boards that are, if not the best at each and every one of them, at least very respectable. Getting them all in an action you enjoy playing them all on does add one more complication, though.

[CEB]

#5 is nice.  

[MikeT156]

On 3/10/2023 at 11:27 PM, sleepwalk said:

Yes I used to gig with a Rhodes and a Hammond XK-2 on top in a soul-jazz band. This was before the Nord boards were out with the good Rhodes sounds. I feel like they were the first one that was acceptable. I still have the Rhodes, but like you, I'm not moving it anymore.

 

The modern boards sound good. Yeah, it's not the same as the real thing, but, I still enjoy playing the sound, so it'll be great..... I got the Motif Rack years ago because people said it had a good Rhodes sound...but I never liked it and never used it. I do like the modern ones though.

I used the ES8 16 track sequencer for just about every song I played when I use to book live shows. I was not as critical as you were on the Rhodes sounds because I had guitar, bass. drums playing the same time in addition to horns strings, etc. The Rhodes sound on the ES8 only had 3 velocities as I recall and the organ sounds were even worse. But I didn't use many organ patches in my sequences. the Leslie Sim was awful. But the ES8 filled a role that no other instrument could back then so it worked out for me. I got a lot of solo work because I was a one man band and kept the volume under control and charged less $$$ than a band. The instruments you buy and play depends on how you use them.

 

Are you still taking live shows? If not, it seems to me you could buy more than one instrument to keep in your studio if you can't find one that satisfies you.

[sleepwalk]

4 hours ago, MikeT156 said:

I used the ES8 16 track sequencer for just about every song I played when I use to book live shows. I was not as critical as you were on the Rhodes sounds because I had guitar, bass. drums playing the same time in addition to horns strings, etc. The Rhodes sound on the ES8 only had 3 velocities as I recall and the organ sounds were even worse. But I didn't use many organ patches in my sequences. the Leslie Sim was awful. But the ES8 filled a role that no other instrument could back then so it worked out for me. I got a lot of solo work because I was a one man band and kept the volume under control and charged less $$$ than a band. The instruments you buy and play depends on how you use them.

 

Are you still taking live shows? If not, it seems to me you could buy more than one instrument to keep in your studio if you can't find one that satisfies you.

Not playing out at the moment. I would love to see if I could satisfy my needs with one 88 board, so that's my goal right now. If that doesn't do it, I'll add a 61 or 73 on top later on to fill the gaps.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, sleepwalk said:

Not playing out at the moment. I would love to see if I could satisfy my needs with one 88 board, so that's my goal right now.

For weighted 88 (and again, "pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings"), I think this is your short list, alphabetically:

 

* Dexibell: S9 or S10 

* Korg: Nautilus/Kronos, though personally, I don't like the action on the couple of Kronos RH3 I've played, even though I"ve been fine with other RH3.

* Kurzweil: K2700 (or PC4, but action is lesser)

* Nord: Stage 4 or Stage 3 88 (or even a used Stage 2/2EX)

* Yamaha: YC88, if you're okay with just a couple of mellotron sounds, and an action that is good but on the heavy side

 

All except the Yamaha have sample memory where you can load additional samples, though the Nord user samples only support a single velocity layer. Nautilus and YC88 are the only ones without aftertouch, if you care. There are lots of other differences, including split/layer capabilities, sound editing capabilities, actions, MIDI capabilities, connectivity, ease of certain operations, etc.. No one is most realistic for each of those sounds, but all of these do at least a decent job at all those sounds, and while I know you don't want to get into a computer (which can generally provide highest sonic realism), all allow you to expand with an iPad as another way to possible shore up a particular area where you might like something better/different, or again, most let you add custom samples as well. And you may also find it may be worth compromising a bit on sounds being the single criteria, since those other things I mentioned may have a significant impact for you on the board's usability and enjoyability, regardless of the sounds (i.e. "split/layer capabilities, sound editing capabilities, actions, MIDI capabilities, connectivity, ease of certain operations, etc.").

 

ETA: Roland Fantom almost made my list, but for your particular list of high priority sounds, personally I think it lags the others, especially if you factor price and travel weight into it.

 

 

 

 

[Synthaholic]

On 3/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, AnotherScott said:

Yeah, the arrangers come out of Korg Italy, a completely different design team from Korg Japan. While they may share some tech, the Kronos engines are not in any of the arrangers.

For $4500 one would think they would include their very best piano, at least.

 

On 3/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, AnotherScott said:

Recital (5) is my piano of choice. 

Mine too. I find it works best when playing only through my Spacestation. I usually use that or Modern Rock Piano (12). I've also found that just turning on Switch 2 (Presence?) on a lot of the pianos that don't use it as their default totally changes the character of the sound. Big difference on Dyn 9ft Grand (1), and makes it usable for me.

 

On 3/11/2023 at 10:56 AM, CEB said:

I don't like any of the 7 ft grands, uprights or the out of tune piano settings (honky tonk, pub, ect... )

Yeah, they're like cartoons. Horrible and unusable. There may be a knob or slider that changes the degree of out of tune, but I haven't spent any time looking. If there isn't there should be. It might make them useful. It's weird, because I've heard and played 'antique' or 'beat up' piano patches like these on much older synths that were very usable and it's hard to believe Kurzweil couldn't get it at least as good as those were.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Synthaholic said:

For $4500 one would think they would include their very best piano, at least.

 

Korg's best pianos (Kronos/Naultilus SGX2) are built around different electronics and operating system/"sound engine". The Italy and Japan divisions are largely independent. If it were just a matter of including those samples, they could conceivably do that, but you'd need an entire infrastructure that can support 8+ GB piano sample sets. Kronos did it with a PC motherboard running Linux to stream from SSD. The arrangers' hardware and software is entirely different, and doesn't have those kind of sample capacities.

[K K]

Sleepwalk, the topic below might interest you. 

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/185267-sale-on-nautilus-at-sweetwater/

 

[sleepwalk]

I found a store in LA that has a K2700, so I'll try to play that soon.

 

I've been thinking about 3rd party sound possibilities....it appears the best options in this respect are Korg and Kurzweil. Is Korg the brand with the most/best 3rd party sounds available? I noticed some 3rd party sounds sound great, whereas others sound like something I would never ever play, but I guess that should be expected as they are just small independent developers so there will be a wide range in quality. Anyway I think it would be great to have that flexibility to add in different sounds I like.

[artdob]

1 hour ago, sleepwalk said:

I found a store in LA that has a K2700, so I'll try to play that soon.

 

I've been thinking about 3rd party sound possibilities....it appears the best options in this respect are Korg and Kurzweil. Is Korg the brand with the most/best 3rd party sounds available? I noticed some 3rd party sounds sound great, whereas others sound like something I would never ever play, but I guess that should be expected as they are just small independent developers so there will be a wide range in quality. Anyway I think it would be great to have that flexibility to add in different sounds I like.

Which store in LA has the 2700?  I would like to play it too as I’m considering this one.  So hard to find quality boards to try before purchase these days.

 

[sleepwalk]

1 hour ago, artdob said:

Which store in LA has the 2700?  I would like to play it too as I’m considering this one.  So hard to find quality boards to try before purchase these days.

 

It's called International House of Music downtown. I talked to Manny today, he says it's on display and it's the only Kurzweil they have. He told me the Forte and PC4 are discontinued, but I still see the PC4 on Sweetwater...?...to be honest if I get a Kurzweil I will probably get a used Forte or PC4 because it will be a much better value used. But I have never played a Kurzweil so I want to try the K2700. It has a lot of the same sounds as the Forte, but the Forte pianos have more samples, so actually a bit better sound than the K2700 pianos.

 

I am pretty surprised it is so hard to find a place to play a Kurzweil in Los Angeles. The store said they didn't even have one until someone requested the Kurzweil distributor for a store to demo one. That was me that sent the email to the distributor.

[Mighty Motif Max]

On 3/13/2023 at 1:21 AM, Synthaholic said:

 

I don't like any of the 7 ft grands, uprights or the out of tune piano settings (honky tonk, pub, ect... )

On 3/13/2023 at 1:21 AM, Synthaholic said:

Yeah, they're like cartoons. Horrible and unusable. There may be a knob or slider that changes the degree of out of tune, but I haven't spent any time looking. If there isn't there should be. It might make them useful. It's weird, because I've heard and played 'antique' or 'beat up' piano patches like these on much older synths that were very usable and it's hard to believe Kurzweil couldn't get it at least as good as those were.

 

I find this fascinating. The 7 ft grands and uprights/pub pianos are the only piano patches I find I can get along with, with the Concert Piano 9' patch being the only exception. The decay is too short on the 7', even with substantial edits, but the basic sound is quite pleasant, if closer to a good upright than a 7' grand.

 

Sure, the detuned pianos are certainly very detuned, but they also are the only such pianos that I have ever liked in a modern keyboard, with the exception of the Nord Saloon Upright. For ragtime, this is exactly what you want. I've played acoustics that were that way for ragtime gigs and it was perfect. Of course, for anything else it's not super useful but for pub/saloon/honky-tonk piano, I think Kurzweil has them spot on.

[AnotherScott]

Detuned/honky-tonk pianos vary widely among different boards. Besides all the usual reasons that pianos sound different (like, they sampled different pianos!), there are also numerous approaches to create this sound. I've seen these: They can sample an actual detuned piano. They can take the regular piano sample and put it through a version of a chorus effect (worst approach, IMO). They can take a regular piano and alter the pitches, either by layering two instances and tuning them slightly apart, or by using slightly different tunings for the left and right waves.

[sleepwalk]

I got to play that Kurzweil K2700 today. The pianos are nice. But I didn't like the Rhodes sounds and I didn't like the organ. I know I can load the Purgatory Creek Rhodes, but that organ just isn't going to do it for me. There was a Kronos 1 right next to it (the sales guy said it was new which is weird considering how old those are) and I played it and much preferred the sounds in it.

 

So I think I am narrowing it down to a Kronos, Nautilus, or Nord Stage (2/2ex/3?). The Nautilus is appealing because if I want, I can buy a bundle with all the Kronos sounds that aren't on the Nautilus, to have access to all the sounds from both keyboards. Although I think I may have to put in a larger SSD somehow to accommodate all that. Anyway, it's good to have options. I still would like to try the Yamaha YC-88 and see what it's like, and try the Korgs and Nords at least one more time to pick my favorite.

[AnotherScott]

I don't believe it's possible to put a bigger SSD drive in the Nautilus.

[Tom Williams]

On 3/16/2023 at 2:13 AM, sleepwalk said:

He told me the Forte and PC4 are discontinued, but I still see the PC4 on Sweetwater...?...to be honest if I get a Kurzweil I will probably get a used Forte or PC4 because it will be a much better value used.

Discontinued?  Unlikely at this time unless it's been killed by supply chain issues.

 

The PC4 is only about three years old, and is still prominently featured on the Kurzweil website.  Plus, it's their "budget" workstation line, with the K2700 filling the premium end. 

 

 

 

[Synthaholic]

13 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I don't believe it's possible to put a bigger SSD drive in the Nautilus.

Wouldn't it just be a matter of cloning the Korg drive?

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, Synthaholic said:

Wouldn't it just be a matter of cloning the Korg drive?

 

How would that address the issue of putting a bigger SSD in the Nautilus? 

 

Info so far seems to indicate that the existing SSD drive is just not designed to be removed and replaced with another, so its capacity is what it is, that's it. e.g. see

 

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=803158&sid=82c90452ced3e43663a54004f719c5a2

 

 

 

[Synthaholic]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

How would that address the issue of putting a bigger SSD in the Nautilus? 

I was talking larger capacity, not bigger size. Just last week I cloned my 500+GB C :  drive to a new Crucial 1TB drive, using the free Acronis True Image software and it worked perfectly. As long as you can get to the drive I don't see why it couldn't be cloned. Maybe I'm missing something.

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, Synthaholic said:

I was talking larger capacity, not bigger size. Just last week I cloned my 500+GB C :  drive to a new Crucial 1TB drive, using the free Acronis True Image software and it worked perfectly. As long as you can get to the drive I don't see why it couldn't be cloned. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

When I said "bigger" I was referring to capacity, not physical dimensions (though the latter would be true as well). Based on the link, it sounds like it is at least non-trivial, and perhaps impossible, to remove the old drive and install a new one.

 

Similar to the current Macbooks. Their SSDs are integrated into the logic board. If they fail, you need to replace the entire logic board. You can no longer remove an SSD and replace it with another.

[sleepwalk]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I don't believe it's possible to put a bigger SSD drive in the Nautilus.

I read on the Korg forums that there is a way to do it, but it is not as easy as on the Kronos, where you can just add in a second drive. You have to open up the Nautilus. But, if it seems too challenging....pretty sure I could put the Kronos sounds on an external drive, attach to the USB port and play them from there? I would rather have everything inside, but as long as it works I guess...

 

One other question.....has anyone played a Kronos LS action? Is this like an Electro action, or is there more weight to it, like Nord HP? Just curious because I just heard about it today and didn't know about it, and wondering how people like it ...

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I read on the Korg forums that there is a way to do it

 

I guess people on that forum must be saying different things, since that contradicts what I posted from that forum. I must have missed what you saw. I don't read everything. ;-)

 

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

 

, but it is not as easy as on the Kronos, where you can just add in a second drive. You have to open up the Nautilus.

 

On Kronos, you could both add in a second drive AND replace the first drive. (Though yes, you have to open up the Kronos, as you'd expect!)

 

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

But, if it seems too challenging....pretty sure I could put the Kronos sounds on an external drive, attach to the USB port and play them from there

 

 I doubt it.

 

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

has anyone played a Kronos LS action? Is this like an Electro action, or is there more weight to it, like Nord HP? 

 

I have not played one, but since it is not a hammer action board, I can at least say that, of those two, it would be closer to an Electro action than a Nord HP (or HA).

 

[Paul Woodward]

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread but going back to the original post…

this week I decided I had just bought too much stuff (keyboard wise) so two board are going. I had a conversation on another forum about the AP’s on my YC61 just not sounding great and preferred my Korg Grandstage. Someone (quite rightly) reminded me that key feel is the main thing so I hooked up the GS to the YC and wow…the YC Pianos came alive and, for some, I preferred them to the GS. Reminded me of my CP4 and the RH3 keybed and YC sounds were a match made in heaven.

So, @sleepwalk have you considered a nice fully weighted controller hooked up to a YC? You can set any of the  three sound sources to external, internal or both so you can essentially get a Yamaha piano and the rhodes, organs etc. from just one sound source. Add in a cheap iPad and you can have Moog, Korg, Roland sounds and more integrated into your setup with the YC doing all the work here and you only need two outputs for everything.

[sleepwalk]

3 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Haven’t managed to read the whole thread but going back to the original post…

this week I decided I had just bought too much stuff (keyboard wise) so two board are going. I had a conversation on another forum about the AP’s on my YC61 just not sounding great and preferred my Korg Grandstage. Someone (quite rightly) reminded me that key feel is the main thing so I hooked up the GS to the YC and wow…the YC Pianos came alive and, for some, I preferred them to the GS. Reminded me of my CP4 and the RH3 keybed and YC sounds were a match made in heaven.

So, @sleepwalk have you considered a nice fully weighted controller hooked up to a YC? You can set any of the  three sound sources to external, internal or both so you can essentially get a Yamaha piano and the rhodes, organs etc. from just one sound source. Add in a cheap iPad and you can have Moog, Korg, Roland sounds and more integrated into your setup with the YC doing all the work here and you only need two outputs for everything.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am trying to get one 88 board to do it all. But I have not been able to test a YC88 yet. It looks like a good option. I have to look around and find one. I played a CP88, and it was nice, but I didn't like how the organs were just presets, and I could not adjust the settings. My favorites that I have played so far are the Korg Nautilus and Kronos, and Nord Stage 2/3.

[Paul Woodward]

I’m sure the YC will play just as well as the CP for pianos. Good luck, I believe stocks are scarce.