One keyboard for most realistic sounds - which do you choose? (no plugins allowed)

[sleepwalk]

54 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I kinda get your train of thought. I used to have the 'Rick Wakeman' rig; 88 weighted on bottom for piano, waterfall organ above it, mono synth for leads, a few digital (D50 etc) types, probably a DX too. You get the idea.

I quit gigging and looked for a 'one board does it all' and ended up with an Alesis Fusion 88 which was the 'budget' Korg Oasys at the time. It was bloody great but temperamental and, as you can guess, it became outdated pretty quickly.

Just about the only tech (other than a computer) to evolve and stay current is the iPad IMO. Korg release some great apps for it (mono/poly, Polysix etc.). 

Always loved Yamaha for piano (last one was a CP4) but I thought the Kronos was the answer to my dreams. I got a Mac and Logic and never used the Kronos so it went.

I realised I just wanted a board like the Yamaha, sounds of the Kronos (always loved Korg for synths) but none of the workstation so you can imagine my joy when they released the Korg Grandtage. RH3 board and Kronos engines...but what a price. So I skipped it until I picked up a mint condition GS73 on Reverb last year with stand and gig bag for £500!!

I would say I prefer it to the Yamaha for pianos and the EP's are great. At that price it just became a nice weighted controller for my studio that I enjoy playing. Deciding to return to gigging I added a Yamaha YC61 for the waterfall keybed and great EP's and organs so I am covered for all the 'traditional' sounds. Popped an iPad in there so I can also add synths (Moog, Korg and more) if I need them but without the investment in dedicated (and expensive) hardware synths.

In essence, the Korg GS and the iPad is a frankenstein Kronos on a budget as I have most of the Korg apps (MS-20, Polysix) that you get in the Kronos.

Rambled on a but there, but bottom line is, no one keyboard can do it all really. 

Surprised that there are so few suggesting the Nord Stage as an 'all in one', but then its just a great sounding board, not a workstation.

Appreciate you sharing your experience. Yeah I am not really looking for a workstation. Just a board with great sounds. I don't need a sequencer etc. Thanks

[Tusker]

4 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Will an Ipad work flawlessly, and if so, which one do they use? Does it require an audio interface, or does it have one built-in?

 

With the 9th generation iPad you could use the headphone out. No complications. With the 10th generation you will need to buy some attachments. Others here can tell you how they set up their rigs.

 

An Apple MacBook Air ($1000) will also run flawlessly for your kind of rig and it has headphone outs, so no audio interface required. You would need to budget for some instruments. MainStage has very decent clav, B3, Rhodes and synths. Imo, a third party software piano would be a good purchase for people who are very piano based.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Surprised that there are so few suggesting the Nord Stage as an 'all in one', but then its just a great sounding board, not a workstation.

Nord has been mentioned quite a bit. Though for the sounds requested, Stage is not really better than the much cheaper Electro. (There are other differences, but OP only asked about the sounds.)

 

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Tonight I played a MODX8 and a Fantom 8. They both were good but I wasn't blown away. I think I still liked the Nautilus better overall. And I don't think any of those three do the Hammond as well as a Nord does.

That's pretty consistent with what I posted earlier as well. For the sounds you asked about, I'd rank the four this way:

pianos: Nord probably over any of the others (though I haven't played every piano sample/engine of each model)

rhodes: Nautilus quite a bit over, MODX or Nord, Fantom bringing up the rear

organ: Nord quite a bit over Fantom, Nautilus, with MODX bringing up the rear

mellotron: Nord quite a bit over Nautilus, and MODX/Fantom far behind those

fat synth pads: too subjective too rank

strings: Nautilus and MODX over Fantom, and Nord bringing up the rear

 

Again, for the sounds you're focussed on, I'd say the Yamaha choice would be the YC, not the MODX.

 

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I always felt that when I got back into hardware it would be a Nord. I always thought they sounded the best. But I have heard people say that they haven't come out with new sounds for awhile, and the other brands have surpassed them.

 

People say all kinds of things. For the sounds you mentioned, I don't think any of the boards you listed have significantly "newer" sounds, which of course even then isn't synonymous with "better."

 

 

[sleepwalk]

59 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Nord has been mentioned quite a bit. Though for the sounds requested, Stage is not really better than the much cheaper Electro. (There are other differences, but OP only asked about the sounds.)

 

That's pretty consistent with what I posted earlier as well. For the sounds you asked about, I'd rank the four this way:

pianos: Nord probably over any of the others (though I haven't played every piano sample/engine of each model)

rhodes: Nautilus quite a bit over, MODX or Nord, Fantom bringing up the rear

organ: Nord quite a bit over Fantom, Nautilus, with MODX bringing up the rear

mellotron: Nord quite a bit over Nautilus, and MODX/Fantom far behind those

fat synth pads: too subjective too rank

strings: Nautilus and MODX over Fantom, and Nord bringing up the rear

 

Again, for the sounds you're focussed on, I'd say the Yamaha choice would be the YC, not the MODX.

 

 

People say all kinds of things. For the sounds you mentioned, I don't think any of the boards you listed have significantly "newer" sounds, which of course even then isn't synonymous with "better."

 

 

I saw an Electro 4 HP73 on Reverb the other day. Already sold, it was priced attractively. That was intriguing to me. I know the 4 doesn't play all the Nord libraries but I'm pretty sure it has access to plenty of sounds I will like. I think it does play the complete piano library. It looked like something that would be fun to play while also being easy to transport. My Rhodes is 73 which seems to be a big enough keyboard. On 88s I don't even really play the 7 or 8 keys on each end so I think 73 would be fine.

[Outkaster]

Another thread that may get the original poster confused eventually.  Nothing is wrong with asking questions.  You will have to try some of these boards yourselves.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I saw an Electro 4 HP73 on Reverb the other day. Already sold, it was priced attractively. That was intriguing to me. I know the 4 doesn't play all the Nord libraries but I'm pretty sure it has access to plenty of sounds I will like. I think it does play the complete piano library. It looked like something that would be fun to play while also being easy to transport. My Rhodes is 73 which seems to be a big enough keyboard. On 88s I don't even really play the 7 or 8 keys on each end so I think 73 would be fine.

As long as you only care about playing one sound at a time, the Electro 4 is very similar to the Electro 6. In terms of the sounds you asked about, the biggest difference is that it doesn't have the newest versions of its some of the EPs (they require at least the E5). But a lot of people don't like the HP action, so if you find another, play it before committing.

[ProfD]

10 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I always felt that when I got back into hardware it would be a Nord. I always thought they sounded the best.

 

The most important thing is the sound and functionality.

I realize the KC brethren was a sounding board, voice of reason, opinion poll, etc.😁 

 

But, there is your answer.  it's a Nord.😎

[stoken6]

19 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I really don't want 2. I want 1. But if I do 1 and I'm not satisfied, I could consider 2. But that's really not what I want.

If you really want piano, and you really want organ, then one board is a compromise. A two board rig brings you a lot closer to "I am satisfied". 

 

A few mentions of the Nord Electro above - the hammer-action models have (imho) a horrible action. Electro SW over a controller keyboard (Casio PX5 or an older model with 5-pin MIDI) is a nice rig. Good pianos, OK organs, mellotron. Not sure to what extent the strings would qualify as fat.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

Yes, one action for organ and piano is always a compromise, but the amount of compromise varies with both the particular action, and the demands of the player.

 

I'd say that some of the better hammer (piano-oriented) actions for organ would be Kurzweil K2700, Yamaha YC73. Some of the better non-hammer actions for piano would be Kurzweil PC4-7, Vox Continental, probably Roland Fantom 6/7 (but not Fantom-06/07). O f course some of this is subjective, too.

[Docbop]

Nord Stage 4 comes out so Yamaha puts out a few videos with Luke Smith on a YC88.   What I find interesting is neither Nord in all it Stage 4 videos or Yamaha have the musicians playing any organ sounds.   I'm really starting to like the YC and CP a lot for the things I do with keyboard.

 

 

[sleepwalk]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

As long as you only care about playing one sound at a time, the Electro 4 is very similar to the Electro 6. In terms of the sounds you asked about, the biggest difference is that it doesn't have the newest versions of its some of the EPs (they require at least the E5). But a lot of people don't like the HP action, so if you find another, play it before committing.

Thanks for advising me on that, I'll need to do splits sometimes, so I guess the E4 is out (unless I combined it with another board).

[sleepwalk]

2 hours ago, Docbop said:

Nord Stage 4 comes out so Yamaha puts out a few videos with Luke Smith on a YC88.   What I find interesting is neither Nord in all it Stage 4 videos or Yamaha have the musicians playing any organ sounds.   I'm really starting to like the YC and CP a lot for the things I do with keyboard.

 

 

Yeah I need to find somewhere where I can play one of these, looks interesting.

 

Also I should add, just in general, I'm okay with playing organ on weighted keys. I know it's not ideal, but, I'm not really a real organ player. But I do appreciate a good organ sound.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Thanks for advising me on that, I'll need to do splits sometimes, so I guess the E4 is out (unless I combined it with another board).

Yes, the E5 is the lowest Electro that can do a split. It supports a single split point. When you split two sounds, one must be either a piano-library sound or an organ sound. IOW, you can split/layer sounds, but you can't play two non-piano/non-organ sounds at the same time. You have to go to the Stage series for that. 

 

2 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Yeah I need to find somewhere where I can play one of these, looks interesting.

The YC73 similarly supports a single split point. If splitting/layering 2 sounds, they can be any two sounds, If splitting/layering 3, one must be an organ. I think the YC has better action and better EPs than the Electros. It's more limited in mellotron, though (just flute and strings, as I mentioned earlier).

[Nathanael_I]

20 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Will an Ipad work flawlessly, and if so, which one do they use? Does it require an audio interface, or does it have one built-in?

One of the new M1 models might. But you will need an interface. And it’s all fiddly consumer computer connectors. I’ve never done this. For the price, I’d buy a laptop and be done with it. You could buy a used laptop under $1k, only use it for music and be done. Once you get over a computer needing to do everything you use a computer for, it’s way easier.  Keep a PC for everything except live stuff.  I have half a dozen computer, laptops, tablets, etc. some only do one thing.  Everyone who pines for hardware modules just needs to dedicate a laptop and run GigPerformer or MainStage. There are clever rack solutions out there to make it one case that just needs power and a cable to your keyboard. It’s a little work, but then you have it all. 

[Paul Woodward]

I would seriously consider a YC 61 or 73 to integrate your iPad with. They also have stereo audio in should you want to route another sound source through it. Makes for a versatile keyboard, and it sounds pretty good by itself.

[Ibarch]

On 2/22/2023 at 4:50 PM, sleepwalk said:

I really don't know why it hasn't worked out. I was really excited to do it that way. I have a Lenovo gaming laptop that should be plenty powerful, 32 gb ram, 1tb SSD. Even when I just play a lightweight plugin I get little noises. It is not the processor or drive or ram being overworked. I guess it's just because it is PC. Really no idea. I would use it if I could get it to work, but it's been 2-3 years now. When I mix down what I played it sounds great. But when playing I hear the little noises.

Could be the power management. Windows will ramp down CPU clock, turn off USB controllers etc to save power. I can't remember the exact name but there is a power plan you can set to keep everything always on, that is usually hidden by laptop makers. Some simple registry settings and a few minutes tweaking will likely fix it. 

[jmemcse517]

13 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

Could be the power management. Windows will ramp down CPU clock, turn off USB controllers etc to save power. I can't remember the exact name but there is a power plan you can set to keep everything always on, that is usually hidden by laptop makers. Some simple registry settings and a few minutes tweaking will likely fix it. 

 

Go to Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Power Options > Edit Plan Settings . Then click on "Change advanced power settings".

- Jim

[Ibarch]

2 hours ago, jmemcse517 said:

 

Go to Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Power Options > Edit Plan Settings . Then click on "Change advanced power settings".

- Jim

Some manufacturers hide plans. There is an ultimate plan or something like that which is often not shown and requires enabling in the registry. 

 

Also, you should open device manager and find the USB hubs and devices. Disable the option to allow these to be put to sleep. 

 

From my experience, the majority of modern Windows laptops will be suitable for audio after these settings are changed. Advanced power management is the enemy of real time audio. 

 

Another thing to try is to run in flight mode, disabling WiFi and Bluetooth. 

[Ibarch]

For a one keyboard option with a weighted action, a large number of good sounds and not too much $$$, the Roland Rd-88 is my choice. 

The organs won't blow you away but most other bases will be well covered. 

[AnotherScott]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:22 AM, sleepwalk said:

Will an Ipad...require an audio interface, or does it have one built-in?

For audio output, if you use an iPad that has a headphone jack, you can use that. If it does not have the jack, you'd need, if not an interface, then at least an adapter that gives it a headphone out. Some people prefer interfaces regardless, because of more rugged connections, conveniently located volume controls (which can also depend on whether your board offers convenient volume controls for external sounds), and/or possibly needing more routing or I/O options. I have not seen anything conclusive as to whether there is any sonic advantage. (All this same info applies to using a Mac laptop as well, except I think all models still have headphone jacks.)

[LarsHarner2]

My travel board that works for me and the type of music I do (heavy bass) has been the Yamaha P-125 for 4-5 years now. I simply enjoy playing it out, and I find the Rhodes works for me. Note I don't really use the B3's.

 

And I would agree with anyone who prefers other actions- I did really enjoy the new Casio PX-5000 i think when I played it.

 

On another note, I think my Nautilus sounds are great, but I don't take it out as I would need to bring my external speaker.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

Bread and butter or what?  

 

Probably go after the Jupiter 80.  Lol for best quality bread and butter...

Integra is good too.  

 

Can't ever look past the Kronos either.  But the Jupiter may be the best rompler for the most realistic bread and butter sounds. 

 

Gotta figure in organ, strings, guitars,...  AND brass, woodwinds.  

[AnotherScott]

15 hours ago, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Bread and butter or what?  

 

Probably go after the Jupiter 80.  Lol for best quality bread and butter...

Integra is good too.  

 

Can't ever look past the Kronos either.  But the Jupiter may be the best rompler for the most realistic bread and butter sounds. 

 

Gotta figure in organ, strings, guitars,...  AND brass, woodwinds.  

 

I like the Jupiter 80/50, but If we're still talking about what the OP asked about ("pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings,"), I'd choose something else. Jupiter 80 is SuperNATURAL only. SuperNATURAL organ and rhodes are not first rate (and personally, I'm not a big fan of the SN piano, either), and there's no mellotron.

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

8 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I like the Jupiter 80/50, but If we're still talking about what the OP asked about ("pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings,"), I'd choose something else. Jupiter 80 is SuperNATURAL only. SuperNATURAL organ and rhodes are not first rate (and personally, I'm not a big fan of the SN piano, either), and there's no mellotron.

Yeah I was still talking about what he asked.  He said most realistic.  I think the super natural engine is one of the more realistic sounding engines as it relates to romplers...

[sleepwalk]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:58 AM, AnotherScott said:

As long as you only care about playing one sound at a time, the Electro 4 is very similar to the Electro 6. In terms of the sounds you asked about, the biggest difference is that it doesn't have the newest versions of its some of the EPs (they require at least the E5). But a lot of people don't like the HP action, so if you find another, play it before committing.

I have been reading up on the Nord HP action. Not only do a lot of people dislike the feel of it (although some do like it), I've read quite a few complaining about it breaking down on them. To the point where keys begin making a very loud clicking sound when pressed. There are a couple YouTube videos with a lot of people commenting about the same issue. They say if you are playing with headphones, or with a band, you don't really notice it. But playing alone with speakers you end up noticing it, and they hate it. Supposedly it has to do with Nord using a lighter plastic key so that these keyboards will be lighter to carry. The plastic is weak and breaks, and then the key make this noise. Anyway, I think if I go for a Nord I will avoid the HP and get an HA if I want fully weighted. There is also the Stage 2 HA76 which may be a decent option.

[AnotherScott]

On 2/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, Julius D Majestic Studios said:

Yeah I was still talking about what he asked.  He said most realistic.  I think the super natural engine is one of the more realistic sounding engines as it relates to romplers...

I like the SuperNATURAL Acoustic stuff for many things, like the natural articulations it can provide to solo orchestral instruments, for example. But I think the realistic "pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron" asked about are not the Jupiter 80/50's strengths (though pianos are particularly subjective, I admit).

 

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

There is also the Stage 2 HA76 which may be a decent option.

That's a nice board, and yes, I'd take that over the Electro 4, even if they had the same action, you wouldn't have to worry about the one-sound-at-a-time limitation. (Be aware that the 76-key version of the Stage 2EX does not have that nicer action that the Stage 2 did.)

[sleepwalk]

What do you guys do if you can't find a store to try something out? I want to try a Kurzweil. Do you guys just buy it from Guitar Center or Sam Ash and then just return it? It seems like for some situations that may be the only way.

[Al Quinn]

Yeah I usually buy from Sweetwater if the return shipping cost isn't too much. For bigger and/or heavier keyboards I buy from Guitar Center so I can drive the return to the store myself and not have to pay for return shipping costs. 

[allan_evett]

8 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I have been reading up on the Nord HP action. Not only do a lot of people dislike the feel of it (although some do like it), I've read quite a few complaining about it breaking down on them. To the point where keys begin making a very loud clicking sound when pressed...

The HP action gets a lot of bad press, but the trade-off advantages work for many players.  I'm fine with the action on my Stage 3, 76, and the small footprint and high portability are very helpful.  After 200+ gigs there were four upper keys that 'clicked', and eventually a partial contact breakdown in one of them.  The repair cost was about $60 less than putting in all new keys, so as of October, 2021 my Stage 3 had a brand new HP action. Considering that my playing style swings from 'whisper' to heavy-handed, I feel the action held up well.  After all, these aren't acoustic pianos actions in our digital appliances. If stolen or irreparably damaged, I'd still use my gear insurance to purchase another Stage 3, 76.  Current stock is discounted heavily now (- $1000 currently) and there will be used instruments available for a long time. 

 

Sleepwalk, I feel the Nord direction is worth exploring. Their instruments are so easy to use for live work; very intuitive and accessible for stage. And the core samples and models hold up well with effects stripped off. Kurzweils are good for live use as well; a little more menu diving, but most essential functions are front panel friendly. The core sounds are also stellar. 

 

At this point it appears you'll have to test the waters by the 'order-try out-return' method. Doing that with a Kurzweil PC4 and/or Nord Stage 3 could provide much needed perspective. And with Nord you'd likely do better with the Stage series vs. Electro, for synth and controller versatility - among other benefits. 

[Iconoclast]

NS3 88 has been my main gigging board for a couple years now. I have 3 different TP40 boards in the house and they all feel slightly different. That being said, after a very short adjustment period, I have zero problems with the NS3 88 keybed. I probably prefer the Forte a bit more but the difference is not material to my playing.