Jump to content


Please note: You can easily log in to MPN using your Facebook account!

One keyboard for most realistic sounds - which do you choose? (no plugins allowed)


Recommended Posts

I'm looking to buy a portable keyboard to play pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings, the usual stuff. I have a real rhodes and clavinet and an upright piano, so I am pretty particular about authentic sound. Is Nord still the best in 2023? People are saying that the other companies have caught up to or passed them....Does a Korg really sound better than a Stage 3? Or one of the Fantoms? A Yamaha? Is Kurzweil in the mix? I am going around to the stores trying out different boards, but I find I have to do a lot of menu diving that I'm not prepared to navigate without a manual. The sounds are always layered with effects and amp sims I need to turn off to hear the raw sound. That is what I'm really after, the raw sound....Anyway, what is your preference? One favorite keyboard for all sounds? Any feedback appreciated. Thanks!   - Jon

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

Link to comment
Share on other sites



2 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I'm looking to buy a portable keyboard to play pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings, the usual stuff. I have a real rhodes and clavinet and an upright piano, so I am pretty particular about authentic sound. Is Nord still the best in 2023? People are saying that the other companies have caught up to or passed them....Does a Korg really sound better than a Stage 3? Or one of the Fantoms? A Yamaha? Is Kurzweil in the mix? 

 

Any budget constraints? Travel weight? Since you mentioned piano and organ, would you rather a better piano action that is less good for organ, or a better organ action that is less good for piano (or would you consider two boards)?

 

  • Like 1

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


apropos of nothing when I read your comment about turning off all of the effects that a keyboard company uses to create what they think is a realistic sound, because you favor the “raw sound“ kind of seems like telling a chef to leave off all the seasoning, because you want to just taste the raw flavor.

Doug Robinson

www.dougrobinson.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kurzweil PC4-7, the only thing suspect would be the leslie sim (organ itself is pretty good).  Add a Lester K and it is as good as any keyboard on the market and substantially less expensive.  If you take the time to tweak the leslie you can probably get by with it.

57 Hammond B3; 69 Hammond L100P; 68 Leslie 122; Kurzweil Forte7 & PC3; M-Audio Code 61; Voce V5+; Neo Vent; EV ELX112P; GSI Gemini & Burn

Delaware Dave

Exit93band

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Any budget constraints? Travel weight? Since you mentioned piano and organ, would you rather a better piano action that is less good for organ, or a better organ action that is less good for piano (or would you consider two boards)?

 

I am considering two boards, one for piano action and one for organ. But for this thread let's stick to the idea of just one board with piano action. The weight is not that big an issue, as long as I can carry/move it myself. Budget is open. Just trying to get an idea what folks think are the most realistic sounding boards.

 

The reason I like turning off the effects is just my personal taste. When I play my Rhodes I usually don't use effects. I record it direct into a good pre. My favorite organ setting is Jimmy Smith, which is, often he didn't even have the Leslie on. I like pianos dry, minimal reverb. But I'm sure every board has the option of turning off effects to get to the raw sound, or at least it should. I'm not saying I wouldn't put a chorus on a Rhodes or whatever...I just want to know I have a good realistic sound to begin with...

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rickzjamm said:

Korg Kronos has some of the most realistic sounds, but falls kinda short in the APs & it's beefy in weight, Kurzweil  good option too.

I played a Kronos and it did sound very good and looked very customizable. The Rhodes sound was pretty accurate. I also played a Korg Kross 2 88, which sounded good also. I'm not sure if it has the same sounds as the Kronos or uses a different engine, I think it works differently supposedly, but it struck me as a good less expensive option.

 

Have yet to play a Kurzweil.

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don’t know. I like different platforms for different sounds. For Pop Brass I always liked Yamaha. For Orchestral and APs my Kurzweil is pretty darn killer but my verdict is still out on the EPS and clavs.  For thick synths I like Roland a lot better than Yammy. My Kronos is a decent at everything but the master of none.  … Nord is good. It depends on the gig, whether you need SetList, or how much muscle you have… maybe you want to stick with the platform you are familiar with. 
 

The PC4 is my new stage piano. I was perfectly happy with Kronos 2 but it’s a hundred pounds in the case and I can’t handle it alone on load outs anymore. 

  • Like 1

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might want to take a look at the long Nord Stage 4 thread:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/184719-nord-stage-4-announced

 

It is discussed in detail along with comparisons to all of the boards mentioned in this thread.  There is a 73 key piano action version that you may be interested in.  Of course, you won't be able to play one for many months-

 

-dj

  • Like 1

iMac i7 13.5.2

Studio One 5.5.2

Nord Stage 3

Nord Wave 2

Nektar T4

Drawmer DL 241

Focusrite ISA Two

Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a recent Kurzweil convert (well, I had a MicroPiano circa 1994, but it's been a minute).  The current samples, VA engine and KB3 engine are really impressive.  I'm thrilled with realism.  Honestly, most modern boards from Korg, Yamaha, Roland and Nord will all have very good sounds.  I used Roland gear for years and while the pianos and Rhodes may not have been the most authentic, realistic sounding offerings, they sat very well in a live mix.  On the other hand, I've also used very good samples from UVI in live setting and they got lost.  So, the most realistic isn't always the "best." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CEB said:

I don’t know. I like different platforms for different sounds. For Pop Brass I always liked Yamaha. For Orchestral and APs my Kurzweil is pretty darn killer but my verdict is still out on the EPS and clavs.  For thick synths I like Roland a lot better than Yammy. My Kronos is a decent at everything but the master of none.  … Nord is good. It depends on the gig, whether you need SetList, or how much muscle you have… maybe you want to stick with the platform you are familiar with. 
 

The PC4 is my new stage piano. I was perfectly happy with Kronos 2 but it’s a hundred pounds in the case and I can’t handle it alone on load outs anymore. 

 

 

:yeahthat:

 

 

  • Like 1
"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and that which cannot remain silent." - Victor Hugo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Korg Kronos covers most bases sound wise, and is a complete swiss army knife of a board. I can't think of anything it can't do. Puzzles me why Korg stopped making it without replacing it with something better.

 

 

Yamaha YC73

Korg Kronos2 61

Yamaha CP88

Roland Jupiter 8

Roland JX3P

Roland D50

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kurzweil's instruments get high marks for authenticity and a wide range of sounds. I've owned both a K2500 XS and Forte 7.  Kurzweil sounds don't seem to have too much 'manufacturer-coloration', at least to my ears.  Particular Yamaha, Roland and earlier Korgs seem to have more of that sound coloration, i.e. - "That sounds like Roland's version of a clavinet", vs. a more 'neutral' sound.  The Kronos and Nautilus strikes me as having that more neutral coloration -  the vintage keyboard tones especially sound closer to the originals than other brands. I have a Nautilus 61, but sometimes think of condensing two of my older 88s into a Nautilus 88. I'd definitely consider that one in a new keyboard search. While the interface is a bit different, it's sonically identical to the Kronos.

  • Like 2

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

We need a barfing cat emoticon!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've had my Nord Stage 3 for about a year now and the AP's are nice, but everything else I'm missing my Kronos.   I left the Kronos because it does have STEEP learning curve and lots of menu diving.  What I like the sound of for individual woodwinds, brass, guitar, etc is the Yamaha CP and YC.  If synth samples are enough for you then then check out the Yamahas. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Kronos and the Kurzweil offerings also have the ability to import multi-samples and have a whole ecosystem of vendors who supply them.  These are boards that "become what you wish" if you put in the effort.  The basics are excellent, but if you don't like something, you can change it.  Workflow, UI and action feel are probably more important than the differences in base samples for everything except acoustic pianos (which are very hard to sample well). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd think that trying to find one board that does everything well would result in getting one board that does nothing particularly well.  For the Bread & Butter sounds you list, I haven't found any board that I thought did them better than a good computer set up.  I've been all in the box for years and not looked back. For more specialized sounds, sure, I get pretty close to my ancient Mini, but not better.  Same for other very specific synths, but for piano, Rhodes, Wurly, B3, Strings, Brass, etc..... I'm sticking with software.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Just trying to get an idea what folks think are the most realistic sounding boards.

One issue is that the most realistic sounding board for one kind of sound may not be the most realistic for another. But that doesn't mean that it can't be at least "good enough" for everything, even if some of the target sounds are stronger than others. That's something else you can also address if you ultimately end up with two boards, choosing them for their different strongest sounds as a factor. There are entire threads about which boards have the best pianos, the best Rhodes, the best organs, etc.... and people's picks are not likely to entirely overlap.

 

Mellotron has its own additional complication, in that there are many mellotron sounds. If all you care about are strings and flutes, you might look at, say, a Yamaha YC, which is a strong choice for most of what you mentioned. But if you want other mellotron sounds, they're not there.

 

4 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I played a Kronos and it did sound very good and looked very customizable. The Rhodes sound was pretty accurate. I also played a Korg Kross 2 88, which sounded good also. I'm not sure if it has the same sounds as the Kronos or uses a different engine, I think it works differently supposedly, but it struck me as a good less expensive option.

 

Kross uses samples for all of its sounds. Kronos/Nautilus uses samples for most sounds, but also has separate modeling engines specifically for EPs and organ. I mentioned that it would be hard to find a board that's best at every sound, but Kross probably isn't best at any of them. But it's not a bad board at all, it sounds good and gives you a lot for the money, and if it's "good enough" for you to happily play it, maybe you don't have to go crazy trying to find the most realistic.

 

9 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Does a Korg really sound better than a Stage 3?

 

I think Korg Kronos/Nautilus, SV2, and Vox Continental EPs are better than Stage 3. Other Korgs, maybe, maybe not.

 

Pianos I think are better on the Nord. I imagine some feel otherwise.

 

Nord has a much wider range of mellotron sounds, though Kronos/Nautilus have memory into which you could load others. There are mellotron soundfonts you can find on the web, and commercial libraries you could sample into it. (Mellotron sounds are easier than most sounds to sample, since they don't have velocity layers, and even a full unlooped sample only takes 8 seconds.)

 

I'd say Nord has much better organ than any Korg except maybe Kronos/Nautilus where it could be a closer call, depending on personal preferences.

 

Orchestral sounds (strings, brass, winds, etc.) are generally stronger on Korgs.

 

 

9 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Or one of the Fantoms? A Yamaha? Is Kurzweil in the mix? 

 

I don't think the Fantoms are the strongest choices for any of the sounds you mentioned. Maybe the V-Piano on the full Fantom, I haven't played that one. Organ is above average, but I'd say it lags the Nord. Not a choice for mellotrons, but again, there's memory into which you can load samples.

 

The only Yamaha with organs that are at least Nord-competitive are the YC61/73/88. Rhodes on those are excellent, I'd say better than Nords, at least competitive with the better Korgs (though Wurli is weak). Good pianos, probably second behind Nord out of the boards we're talking about. Strings and mellotrons seem fine, but there is limited selection, and no user expansion memory. It's the only one here that is about as easy to use as the Nord, in terms of dedicated controls for everything on the front panel.

 

Kurzweil K2700/PC4/PC4-7 ... Very good pianos, though I think not the best, and definitely not the strongest variety. Strong EPs, especially if you add the downloadable ones from Purgatory Creek. Good mellotrons, and it has memory into which you should be able to load others (though I'm not sure how easily). Good strings. Organ is okay, I'd say a bit below the Fantom. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It all depends on taste, so my advice is try as many as possible. And of course, one has to go further than just the stock programs of any synth to figure out what it can really do. The Kurzweils are pretty good but their KB3 mode is not that great and I can't stand Fatar keyboards. IMHO the Korg Kronos remains the most versatile of all in terms of customizing sounds and I love the RH3 88-key action. And since it is also a complete sampler, you can add 3-party sample sets and create your own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kurzweil checks all of your boxes.  And the beauty of those is that if you don't like the factory sounds you can dive in and make literally 100's of parameter adjustments/adds/deletes/shaping, etc. etc. etc. and literally end up with what you are looking for.  I currently gig with an Artis 7 which was discontinued a couple of years ago and cut my chops on their PC3 series boards when those came out.  I've bought--and returned--just about every competitor and keep coming back to Kurz'.

Kurzweil PC4-7

Kurzweil Artis 7

Alto TS312 Powered Speakers (2)

Samson 6 channel mixer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On another forum, someone claimed that Yamaha and Korg reserve their finest quality sample playback tech for their high-end arranger keyboards - the ones that go for $5000 or more.   It's not just the sample files themselves but all the behavioral modeling and other modeling stuff that goes with it.

 

If you have an unlimited budget those high-end arrangers are worth a look.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

On another forum, someone claimed that Yamaha and Korg reserve their finest quality sample playback tech for their high-end arranger keyboards - the ones that go for $5000 or more.   It's not just the sample files themselves but all the behavioral modeling and other modeling stuff that goes with it.

There is truth to that (even on more moderately priced arrangers, like my Korg PA1000), but not for the "pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads" sounds that the OP is talking about. 

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every modern sample-playback KB has *realistic* sounds.

 

It really comes down to how convincingly a musician plays the sound(s) in a KB.😎

  • Like 4

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Kurzweil PC4-7, the only thing suspect would be the leslie sim (organ itself is pretty good).  Add a Lester K and it is as good as any keyboard on the market and substantially less expensive.  If you take the time to tweak the leslie you can probably get by with it.

My Leslie is tweaked a bit -- BillW's PC3 settings -- but (or maybe "and") I have yet to hear a whisper of complaint about the PC4's Hammond or Leslie when I play out.  And I'm only using a single (7 CPU unit) Leslie.   Unless you're doing an organ trio recording, I don't think any listener will say "What a cheesy Hammond."   In the meantime, the PC4 has an amazing variety of string section articulations, and multiple renderings of most orchestral wind instruments.

 

The PC4-7 is definitely a versatile bargain. 

-Tom Williams

{First Name} {at} AirNetworking {dot} com

PC4-7, PX-5S, AX-Edge, PC361

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems like sampling keyboards is something that needs robotics.   A good full sample is many passes over all 88 keys and trying to play the same velocity for 88 keys, then add in the pedal passes, longs and shorts, micing variations etc.   So many passes to get a good sample.   That doesn't even get into all the editing of the samples.      

 

Typing this I remember when Toto got busted recording the I think it was the London Philharmonic orchestra to make samples.  Oops no-no the arrangement has lots of single notes.   The orchestra's management was not amused. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Steve Nathan said:

I'd think that trying to find one board that does everything well would result in getting one board that does nothing particularly well.  For the Bread & Butter sounds you list, I haven't found any board that I thought did them better than a good computer set up. 

+100

 

Realizing one of your rules is "no plugins", BUT NOTE - Steve mentions he hasn't found any board that does them better than his computer (I completely agree).  I'll accentuate this - he's talking about EVERY ONE OF THE SOUNDS YOU LISTED!  Hence, the swiss army knife of a keyboard you're searching for does exist - it's in your laptop.  It exists nowhere else (except maybe a mega-expensive laborious workstation that can/will become outdated).  Find a good controller with a great keybed, midi up to your laptop and you'll have the all-in-one setup you're searching for.

 

Also - the raw sound approach - I'm with you on that.  And I've found with Mainstage, stripping sounds down to their rawest state is easy.  Strip it down, and then if so desired, layering back any effects needed to bring the song to life, is all part of the fun.

 

Some music I've recorded and played over the years with a few different bands

Tommy Rude Soundcloud

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, TommyRude said:

+100

 

Realizing one of your rules is "no plugins", BUT NOTE - Steve mentions he hasn't found any board that does them better than his computer (I completely agree).  I'll accentuate this - he's talking about EVERY ONE OF THE SOUNDS YOU LISTED!  Hence, the swiss army knife of a keyboard you're searching for does exist - it's in your laptop.  It exists nowhere else (except maybe a mega-expensive laborious workstation that can/will become outdated).  Find a good controller with a great keybed, midi up to your laptop and you'll have the all-in-one setup you're searching for.

 

Also - the raw sound approach - I'm with you on that.  And I've found with Mainstage, stripping sounds down to their rawest state is easy.  Strip it down, and then if so desired, layering back any effects needed to bring the song to life, is all part of the fun.

 

I have tried the laptop vst route and I agree that is where to find the best sounds. However even with a beast of a gaming laptop and an RME Babyface I hear little crackles every 15 seconds or so. I have tried everything with settings, different programs, etc to get it running rock solid and it hasn't happened for me. Nowadays, it seems that hardware sounds have improved quite a bit since I started that journey, so now I'm looking for something I can "just play!" without having to be a "computer guy." I use the computer plenty for recording and everything else, so looking forward to getting away from it and try the old approach again.

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Today I played a Nautilus 88, which I guess has the same sounds as the Kronos? I liked it, though it took me about 30 minutes to figure out how to navigate the folders. I was stuck in the first showcase sounds, until I realized how to open the EP folder, for example, and then I could test all the EP's, etc. Then I figured out how to open a specific sound and remove the phaser, amp model, etc. This stuff takes time to figure out.

 

Anyway, some very playable nice sounds. Kinda hard to tell what it will sound like after I mold my favorite sounds to my taste. But I think they'd be very close. Some nice pianos and Rhodes, beautiful orchestral strings. Not sure about the organ. I didn't have time to go inside it. Do you get all the specific B3 settings to set up like on a Nord or B4 plugin? I didn't get to try any flute mellotron, maybe I just didn't see it. Anyway I've seen this 88 board for under $2K used, which seems like a pretty good value considering the cost of the Nords and some of these others. But I still have to try quite a few others and compare.

Suitcase 73 - D6 - Poly 800 - ATC-1 - Motif Rack - XV-2020 - plug-ins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...