One keyboard for most realistic sounds - which do you choose? (no plugins allowed)

[MikeT156]

Very interesting Topic. there are not many references to Yamaha. After over 40 years of playing music live in bands and eventually as a solo act, I NEVER had anything from Yamaha break down on me. My last full time musical work was as a solo act doing the hotel circuit for 3 years full time. I played in hotel lounges up and down the eastern states, some times a one week gig then onto the next hotel, some grew into 3 or 4 week gigs playing 5 or 6 nights a week. Moving equipment around like that will test its reliability big time. Never had a break down in all those years.

 

I suggest you try a top of the line Yamaha KB before you decide. Yamaha has greatly improved their user interface over the years and their equipment is competitively priced. They stand behind it and that is worth consideration. I Still have most of equipment I bought from Yamaha in my music room. I still have my Yamaha P2200 power amp I bought in 1972. It still works and powers up.

[sleepwalk]

5 hours ago, MikeT156 said:

Very interesting Topic. there are not many references to Yamaha. After over 40 years of playing music live in bands and eventually as a solo act, I NEVER had anything from Yamaha break down on me. My last full time musical work was as a solo act doing the hotel circuit for 3 years full time. I played in hotel lounges up and down the eastern states, some times a one week gig then onto the next hotel, some grew into 3 or 4 week gigs playing 5 or 6 nights a week. Moving equipment around like that will test its reliability big time. Never had a break down in all those years.

 

I suggest you try a top of the line Yamaha KB before you decide. Yamaha has greatly improved their user interface over the years and their equipment is competitively priced. They stand behind it and that is worth consideration. I Still have most of equipment I bought from Yamaha in my music room. I still have my Yamaha P2200 power amp I bought in 1972. It still works and powers up.

I tried a CP88 briefly. I should go back to that store and spend more time with it. I would also like to try the YC88 but have yet to see one on display.

[sleepwalk]

9 hours ago, allan_evett said:

The HP action gets a lot of bad press, but the trade-off advantages work for many players.  I'm fine with the action on my Stage 3, 76, and the small footprint and high portability are very helpful.  After 200+ gigs there were four upper keys that 'clicked', and eventually a partial contact breakdown in one of them.  The repair cost was about $60 less than putting in all new keys, so as of October, 2021 my Stage 3 had a brand new HP action. Considering that my playing style swings from 'whisper' to heavy-handed, I feel the action held up well.  After all, these aren't acoustic pianos actions in our digital appliances. If stolen or irreparably damaged, I'd still use my gear insurance to purchase another Stage 3, 76.  Current stock is discounted heavily now (- $1000 currently) and there will be used instruments available for a long time. 

 

Sleepwalk, I feel the Nord direction is worth exploring. Their instruments are so easy to use for live work; very intuitive and accessible for stage. And the core samples and models hold up well with effects stripped off. Kurzweils are good for live use as well; a little more menu diving, but most essential functions are front panel friendly. The core sounds are also stellar. 

 

At this point it appears you'll have to test the waters by the 'order-try out-return' method. Doing that with a Kurzweil PC4 and/or Nord Stage 3 could provide much needed perspective. And with Nord you'd likely do better with the Stage series vs. Electro, for synth and controller versatility - among other benefits. 

Thanks for sharing your experience. What was the cost to replace the HP keybed? Do players with HA have to replace them too? I understand it's a trade off because it's lighter, but if you don't gig as much you look at it differently.

[MikeT156]

3 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

I tried a CP88 briefly. I should go back to that store and spend more time with it. I would also like to try the YC88 but have yet to see one on display.

Its worth a shot, It is important to get a KB with sound and action that meets your personal needs. Reliability is important too. Striking a balance that you can live with is the goal

 

 

[hrestov]

Gsi Gemini is a good expander that give most realistic sound. It’s the best in organ and electric piano. It’s growing with its new acoustic piano expansion. Have a nice virtual analog synth. And other dedicated engine for the other sounds. 
 

But it’s an expander, not a keyboard. 
 

The only down is that only give two part at a time. 

 

 

[sleepwalk]

Ok got to play the CP88 some more tonight. It's a nice board, but as a picky Rhodes player I prefer the Nord Nefertiti sound and also the Nautilus Rhodes. I know everyone has their personal preferences, but obviously I have to go with mine. Pianos were nice. Played an organ sound, but I couldn't figure out how to dial in the organ settings, or pull up different organ presets. It's probably decent, but I couldn't figure it out. I also played a couple synth pads that were ok but didn't sound like anything special personally. Like I said I wasn't really able to figure out how to audition all the presets. I would also still like to play a YC88 at some point if possible.

 

While I was there I also played around on a Stage 3 Compact and a Nord Piano 5. The Piano 5 action is nice. Is the Stage 2 and 3 (88) action the same as the Piano 5? I thought I read somewhere that they might be a little different.

 

Also while checking out stuff on YouTube I came across this video for Natural Rhodes from MegaPreset, a sound that works with the Kurzweil PC4. I was pretty impressed by this sound in this video:  

 

[Dave Keys]

7 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. What was the cost to replace the HP keybed? Do players with HA have to replace them too? I understand it's a trade off because it's lighter, but if you don't gig as much you look at it differently.

 

I wonder if there's room inside the Nord Electro to replace the HP action for the HA?

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Ok got to play the CP88 some more tonight...Played an organ sound, but I couldn't figure out how to dial in the organ settings

There aren't any. The organ sounds are just like any other sounds, there are no specific organ settings, you can just put them through the same effects, EQ, etc., as any other sound. If you need organ functionality that requires more than just calling up from a handful of presets with the same options as anything else, that's one of the reasons you get the YC instead of the CP.

 

 

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

or pull up different organ presets.

 

To check out the available organ voices, you turn on the Sub section illustrated here (switch at bottom) and place the knob  at the top left into the Organ position:

 

 

Then use the green button to move up and down through the available organ sounds, which are these:

 

 

 

5 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

It's probably decent, but I couldn't figure it out. I also played a couple synth pads that were ok but didn't sound like anything special personally. Like I said I wasn't really able to figure out how to audition all the presets.

 

There are two kinds of "presets." The above navigation method allows you to check out all the Voices, they are permanent and uneditable. Separately, there are factory-provided "Live Sets" which present those voices in various combinations and with different effects/settings. Those locations are editable and erasable/rewritable, it's where you save your own favorite sounds, with whatever customization/combination you may like, in whatever order you like. They are navigated from these controls:

 

 

but the voices used in the live sets are the same ones you hear when auditioning the voices directly.

 

 

[MPN21]

14 hours ago, hrestov said:

Gsi Gemini is a good expander that give most realistic sound. ...

The only down is that only give two part at a time. 

 

 

Once I considered buying the desktop version, but only two parts were a deal breaker for me. 

[sleepwalk]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

There aren't any. The organ sounds are just like any other sounds, there are no specific organ settings, you can just put them through the same effects, EQ, etc., as any other sound. If you need organ functionality that requires more than just calling up from a handful of presets with the same options as anything else, that's one of the reasons you get the YC instead of the CP.

 

 

 

To check out the available organ voices, you turn on the Sub section illustrated here (switch at bottom) and place the knob  at the top left into the Organ position:

 

 

Then use the green button to move up and down through the available organ sounds, which are these:

 

 

 

 

There are two kinds of "presets." The above navigation method allows you to check out all the Voices, they are permanent and uneditable. Separately, there are factory-provided "Live Sets" which present those voices in various combinations and with different effects/settings. Those locations are editable and erasable/rewritable, it's where you save your own favorite sounds, with whatever customization/combination you may like, in whatever order you like. They are navigated from these controls:

 

 

but the voices used in the live sets are the same ones you hear when auditioning the voices directly.

 

 

Thanks, after reading this I took a look at the manual. I think if I can get something where I have more customization of organ settings then I should go with that. The CP88 is nice but I think the YC88 or something else is a better choice for me.

[Mighty Motif Max]

16 hours ago, sleepwalk said:

Ok got to play the CP88 some more tonight. It's a nice board, but as a picky Rhodes player I prefer the Nord Nefertiti sound and also the Nautilus Rhodes. I know everyone has their personal preferences, but obviously I have to go with mine. Pianos were nice. Played an organ sound, but I couldn't figure out how to dial in the organ settings, or pull up different organ presets. It's probably decent, but I couldn't figure it out. I also played a couple synth pads that were ok but didn't sound like anything special personally. Like I said I wasn't really able to figure out how to audition all the presets. I would also still like to play a YC88 at some point if possible.

 

While I was there I also played around on a Stage 3 Compact and a Nord Piano 5. The Piano 5 action is nice. Is the Stage 2 and 3 (88) action the same as the Piano 5? I thought I read somewhere that they might be a little different.

 

Also while checking out stuff on YouTube I came across this video for Natural Rhodes from MegaPreset, a sound that works with the Kurzweil PC4. I was pretty impressed by this sound in this video:  

 

 

If you're really a hardcore Rhodes guy, my suggestion is to get a Kurzweil PC4/K2700 and load in the Rhodes patches from Purgatory Creek. The MKII is free and is hands down the best Rhodes sample I've ever played.

 

https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/mark-ii/

https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/vkc-for-kurzweil-forte/

[sleepwalk]

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

 

If you're really a hardcore Rhodes guy, my suggestion is to get a Kurzweil PC4/K2700 and load in the Rhodes patches from Purgatory Creek. The MKII is free and is hands down the best Rhodes sample I've ever played.

 

https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/mark-ii/

https://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.php/vkc-for-kurzweil-forte/

Yes I play a lot of Rhodes. Thanks, those samples sound good. I am trying to find a store in LA to play a Kurzweil. Their website lists some stores that are out of business, so I emailed them to see if they can tell me where I can demo one.

[Outkaster]

YC88 is great. 

[allan_evett]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:02 PM, sleepwalk said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. What was the cost to replace the HP keybed? Do players with HA have to replace them too? I understand it's a trade off because it's lighter, but if you don't gig as much you look at it differently.

The HP 76 keybed replacement was around $540, including labor. That was acceptable - after four years of hard playing - for an instrument with a $4K + replacement value.  I plan to keep the Stage 3 for at least ten years.

[Sundown]

It’s only going to matter what you want … What you enjoy playing… Absent a very narrow niche of jazz clubs, no one in the audience will know whether you’re playing the latest Nord or a 30 year-old Ensoniq. As long as the set list is good and the energy and playing is good, the audience is oblivious to our attention to detail. That being said, pick something you really enjoy, because it’s reason enough to get a good board. Just recognize who you’re doing it for.

 

From a gear perspective, Kurzweil shines with orchestral instruments (both solo and ensemble), choirs, pianos, and the KB3 engine is completely useable in a band. I would say their synth sounds fall short of other brands (despite how deep and powerful VAST is). The raw sample material for synth sounds isn’t as competitive as other offerings, and I don’t think the VA oscillators make up for it.

 

I think Yamaha is doing some great stuff across the board and I’m partial to some of their synth sounds. Organs are going to be mediocre (at least on a Montage). But if you go with a Montage you also get a great FM engine, besides just sample playback.

 

Korg lost me a long time ago, other than the great work they are doing with their legacy plugin instruments. Modern Korg patches sound nasal to me. It’s hard to put a finger on what I don’t like about it, but it’s the best descriptor I can provide.

 

Nords sound great in YouTube videos, but I’ve never really played one so I’ll have to recuse myself. They are definitely a board I would look at if I wanted another weighted board.

 

And Roland is a tough one … There’s some good synth sounds on a Jupiter X, some decent APs, but I’m not sure about organs. The organ demos I’ve heard fall short of others (e.g. Nord, Kurzweil, etc). 

 

If you want to try something off the beaten path, checkout a Sequential Prophet X. There’s no drawbars (and I doubt it has a Leslie sim), but it is sample-based and it will be very different from other more popular offerings. And the synth sounds will crush most of the competitors. And it has knobs galore … It’s definitely a board I would consider if I had $3,500 at my disposal.

 

Todd

[sleepwalk]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:06 AM, AnotherScott said:

Nord has been mentioned quite a bit. Though for the sounds requested, Stage is not really better than the much cheaper Electro. (There are other differences, but OP only asked about the sounds.)

 

That's pretty consistent with what I posted earlier as well. For the sounds you asked about, I'd rank the four this way:

pianos: Nord probably over any of the others (though I haven't played every piano sample/engine of each model)

rhodes: Nautilus quite a bit over, MODX or Nord, Fantom bringing up the rear

organ: Nord quite a bit over Fantom, Nautilus, with MODX bringing up the rear

mellotron: Nord quite a bit over Nautilus, and MODX/Fantom far behind those

fat synth pads: too subjective too rank

strings: Nautilus and MODX over Fantom, and Nord bringing up the rear

 

Again, for the sounds you're focussed on, I'd say the Yamaha choice would be the YC, not the MODX.

 

 

People say all kinds of things. For the sounds you mentioned, I don't think any of the boards you listed have significantly "newer" sounds, which of course even then isn't synonymous with "better."

 

 

Appreciate all your advice. Do you have any experience with the Kurzweil Forte or PC4? I was wondering where you would rank it soundwise with the Nord Stages and Korg Kronos and Nautilus. I am narrowing down my search but I am still trying to find somewhere to play a Kurzweil.

[AnotherScott]

58 minutes ago, sleepwalk said:

Appreciate all your advice. Do you have any experience with the Kurzweil Forte or PC4? I was wondering where you would rank it soundwise with the Nord Stages and Korg Kronos and Nautilus.

 

I prefer Nord for piano overall, but Kurz has one piano sound I really like, and as long as I have one I'm happy with, I'm good. I haven't heard all the newest Korg offerings. (I wasn't so happy with the original Kronos pianos, even though the sample sizes were large.)

 

For Rhodes, I'd put the Kurzweil over Nord, esp. with the optional Purgatory Creek EPs factored in as well. Not sure how I'd compare them to the Korgs.

 

For organ, I'd rank then Nord, Korg, Kurz. Though I bet some on this board would disagree.

 

Nord has the widest range of available mellotron sounds, but for the most common ones, I think the Kurzweil ones sound really nice.

 

All 3 boards have VA synth engines. From what I can tell, Nord is easiest to edit, but least deep. Kurzweil is probably deepest, but hardest to edit. Leaving Korg in the middle in both respects. Though my own personal experience here is limited.

 

I'm not sure about Korg vs. Kurz strings, though Nord would lag them both.

 

[K K]

About more recent Korg acoustic piano sample sets, the Nautilus has a new Steinway piano (I think it is called German 2) with which you can adjust close and ambient mics. It also features a Fazioli (Italian Grand) which I bought for my Kronos and IMHO sounds excellent.

[sleepwalk]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I prefer Nord for piano overall, but Kurz has one piano sound I really like, and as long as I have one I'm happy with, I'm good. I haven't heard all the newest Korg offerings. (I wasn't so happy with the original Kronos pianos, even though the sample sizes were large.)

 

For Rhodes, I'd put the Kurzweil over Nord, esp. with the optional Purgatory Creek EPs factored in as well. Not sure how I'd compare them to the Korgs.

 

For organ, I'd rank then Nord, Korg, Kurz. Though I bet some on this board would disagree.

 

Nord has the widest range of available mellotron sounds, but for the most common ones, I think the Kurzweil ones sound really nice.

 

All 3 boards have VA synth engines. From what I can tell, Nord is easiest to edit, but least deep. Kurzweil is probably deepest, but hardest to edit. Leaving Korg in the middle in both respects. Though my own personal experience here is limited.

 

I'm not sure about Korg vs. Kurz strings, though Nord would lag them both.

 

Thanks. I noticed on the Purgatory site that the EP's are also available for Kronos and Nautilus as well as Montage (and also as Kontakt files). Also they have other sounds (pianos etc) available for these different brands. Some of them were designed by other companies and Purgatory Creek took the Kontakt files and converted them to work on these other systems. That is very interesting. It makes me think that potentially, this could be done with any Kontakt library. Or maybe Native Instruments should just make a board that can play any Kontakt library. That would be cool 😎.

[sleepwalk]

1 hour ago, K K said:

About more recent Korg acoustic piano sample sets, the Nautilus has a new Steinway piano (I think it is called German 2) with which you can adjust close and ambient mics. It also features a Fazioli (Italian Grand) which I bought for my Kronos and IMHO sounds excellent.

Yeah I played a Nautilus and I did like the pianos..certain ones I like a lot.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, sleepwalk said:

I noticed on the Purgatory site that the EP's are also available for Kronos and Nautilus as well as Montage

Yes. Looking briefly, it seems their best selection with biggest sample sets is for Kronos/Naultilus, which I hadn't noticed before. Then Kurzweil, then Montage/MODX.

 

I wish there were a sub-20lb Nautilus 7x with aftertouch. ;-)

[cphollis]

Stretching outside the usual choices, I'm thinking a Prophet XL for most realistic sounds of strings, drums, flutes, horns, etc.  No decent organ sounds, but everything else is total ear candy, and that's before you get into the synth and the mod matrix.

[AnotherScott]

2 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Stretching outside the usual choices, I'm thinking a Prophet XL for most realistic sounds of strings, drums, flutes, horns, etc.  No decent organ sounds, but everything else is total ear candy, and that's before you get into the synth and the mod matrix.

 

I don't know, I think its strengths are largely outside the core sounds mentioned by the OP ("pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings"). Similar to why I didn't mention Genos, despite it being one of the best boards for authenticity in some respects. As impressive as it is for so much stuff, I think it lags some much cheaper boards for probably all of those things except probably strings.

[cphollis]

1 minute ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I don't know, I think its strengths are largely outside the core sounds mentioned by the OP ("pianos, rhodes, organ, mellotron, fat synth pads and strings"). Similar to why I didn't mention Genos, despite it being one of the best boards for authenticity in some respects. As impressive as it is for so much stuff, I think it lags some much cheaper boards for probably all of those things except probably strings.

Yeah, I know, he's looking for bread and butter.  AS you know, all of those can be done quite well by a Nord Electro without breaking a sweat.  I just think it'd be fun to work with a whole orchestra worth of sampled real stringed instruments at once vs. the usual "stringz" sounds.

[sleepwalk]

Here's a video of a PC3 organ vs a B3. PC3 organ sounds pretty similar (I'm assuming the PC4 sounds the same).

 

 

[AnotherScott]

That video has come up a lot. People listen for different things. There are certainly differences, but overall, I think the Kurz does come off well, except I think the Kurz really falls down on the fast Leslie on that comparison, though you can also choose to put a Vent on the Kurz.

 

Also of note: He's not using a factory sound, he's using one that he tweaked. This means the typical purchaser of the board is not going to have (or know how to get) this particular sound. (Which isn't to say there may not be something someone would find equally satisfying already on the PC4.)

 

Regardless of whether you do or do not feel a given comparison of "Hammond to clone" is "close enough," it's also worth keeping in mind that Hammonds have many tonal characteristics, not all of which are relevant or especially noticeable to any one particular sound or playing approach. IOW, the fact that it gets close enough for you sometimes doesn't necessarily mean it will get that close all the time.

 

The same issue comes up when people compare rompler or VA synth sounds to actual analog synths. You can come up with a given patch where the "pretender" and the real thing sound really close. That doesn't mean you couldn't play a whole bunch of stuff on the real thing where, due to different settings or taking advantage of different sonic behaviors or playing techniques, the boards don't come nearly that close.

 

I'm not saying these kinds of comparisons aren't useful, I'm just saying they have limitations to be aware of as well.

[Docbop]

As the old saying goes......   Close enough for Rock n Roll!!!!

 

 

[MikeT156]

I don't know if anyone else has asked of Jon, the OP. What kind of music do you play? Are you a solo act that plays music but doesn't sing? Do you work in a Trio or a band? A solo musician that just plays music but doesn't sing is after the most authentic sound available, whereas a KB player that works in a band doesn't have to be so picky, most KB players in bands get a back seat to deaf guitar players and drummers. 

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

[sleepwalk]

7 minutes ago, MikeT156 said:

I don't know if anyone else has asked of Jon, the OP. What kind of music do you play? Are you a solo act that plays music but doesn't sing? Do you work in a Trio or a band? A solo musician that just plays music but doesn't sing is after the most authentic sound available, whereas a KB player that works in a band doesn't have to be so picky, most KB players in bands get a back seat to deaf guitar players and drummers. 

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

I played in bands in the past, but now I write and record songs at home. I sing. It's a songwriter style. I'm really just looking for something that sounds really good for all my favorite sounds, to play on and write on, and record with. Also something that I could use if I decide to play live solo or with a band. As I said my vst laptop experience has not been great so I wanted to get a good hardware board. My current hardware is a 90s Fatar 88 controller and Motif Rack and Roland XV-2020 which is obviously lousy compared to what I can get nowadays. I feel like when I bought a piece of gear 20 years ago, usually it would have maybe 2 or 3 sounds I liked, if that, and then the rest were uninspiring or just something I would never ever play with. Whereas nowadays, I can get great simulations of all my favorite sounds in one board.

[MikeT156]

Having great sounds can be inspiring when you write your own material. I don't know that any one KB can have ALL great sounds, or there would only be one company making it. Think about it. Back in the dark ages I had a Yamaha Electric Grand, an Oberheim, a Prophet 5, an Oberheim drum machine, a Rhodes Mark 1 Suitcase piano that I used for live shows. These days we don't have to lug around all that equipment, but there are compromises we have to make.

 

My more recent set up was a Motif ES8, I used the internal 16 track recorder, loaded new sounds from Yamaha's library, and sound effects I got off the internet. My rig is dated, but I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter. I did a one man band gig and got a lot of great jobs because I was a substitute for a band and didn't play too loud. I could sing and did a lot of Billy Joel songs when they were popular. There is nothing like having a Real Rhodes piano for songs Just the way you are, and James.

 

I still have my suitcase Rhodes, and IMO it is the genuine sound. nothing sounds like a REAL Rhodes. Its a bear to move, so it stays home.

 

Choose wisely.