Gb or F# ??

[konaboy]

It's clear in my mind that the sharp keys are

G D A E B

 

and the flat keys are

F Bb Eb Ab Db

 

You wouldn't normally call a tune in D#, of A#, right?  You would say Eb or Bb...? No one in the right mind would call B key sigature as Cb.

 

But if you continue around the circle you reach key signature of F# / Gb.  Both seem equally viable and commonly used (and terrifying...)

 

I've kinda noticed that jazzers would say Gb and classical players F#... maybe?

 

when and why would you call one over the other?

 

[Paul Woodward]

Maybe this will help…or not

 

[analogika]

The first answer in that reddit thread nails it. 

Depends on where you're coming from, and where you're going. 

 

Also, playing in Gb minor will get you shot, since that (and its relative major, Bbb) is a key with 9 flats. 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

To be sharp

If you're given the right key

you can play in any flat.

 

After gig symphony?

[PianoMan51]

One possibility comes from playing with transposing horns. Bb horns sound in the key of Bb when their charts are written in C (no flats).
 

When my piano (concert pitch) chart is in Gb (6 flats),  a Bb trumpet chart is in Ab (4 flats). An Eb clarinet chart is in Eb (3 flats). 
 

Vs a song in F# where the transposing charts are in G# and D#.

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, konaboy said:

It's clear in my mind that the sharp keys are

G D A E B

 

and the flat keys are

F Bb Eb Ab Db

 

You wouldn't normally call a tune in D#, of A#, right?  You would say Eb or Bb...? No one in the right mind would call B key sigature as Cb.

 

But if you continue around the circle you reach key signature of F# / Gb.  Both seem equally viable and commonly used (and terrifying...)

 

I've kinda noticed that jazzers would say Gb and classical players F#... maybe?

 

when and why would you call one over the other?

 

It only matters depending who you’re writing for - young people, students, intermediate players who would possibly have a strong preference for flats if for example they came up playing concert band music on brass or woodwinds. Eventually, with enough experience reading songs in every key the preference fades.  
 

But as mentioned above - when working with human beings, ease of read gives you a greater chance of nailing it the first time and reducing rehearsal time.  So go for the one with less double sharp, double flat activity and what’s preferred by the instruments called.  

[K K]

1 - To determine such things, modulation is the key (I mean... Modulation is when you move away from the key). 

 

2 - Unless impossible, accidentals should respect the key you're in. So if you are in E major, modulate with sharps or naturals. Use flat accidentals only if no choice.

 

3 - Study the great composers. You will see there is indeed stuff with more than 7 sharps or flats. Not fun, but that's why they invented tylenol.

[octa]

Chopin wrote pieces in Gb Major and F# Major, so maybe could look at how those progress/modulate. 

 

Eb minor (relative to Gb) makes more sense to me, when doodling around, than D# minor for sure. 

 

[The Real MC]

Sometimes the staff notation drives the key.  Certain chord modulations may be easier to read in one key than the other (IE to avoid double sharps/flats)

[CEB]

Yes everyone here gots it.  It depends.  It is both depending on conditions.   

 

Personally these days I try very hard not to think of it.  I think of structures and more often I think of number more than letters.  If reading I usually wrote the chart.  I always chart in a number based system so if I need the chart in a different key, the chart is still good.

 

When we covered Senor Mouse in this key. I would use F# or Gb interchangeably.   I just knew the shapes and structures of the melody runs and chords.  Otherwise I came from a classical background and the key is whatever the scores say it is.  Verbal communication of keys wasn't even important because the fusion band was a bunch of studs who just played it.  Learned more from that group during college than my college music classes.  LOL

 

PS - But if you want standard to adhere to I guess you could worse than the WTC by JS Bach.  But Bach never played with a Latin or R&B horn section.  LOL

[MathOfInsects]

4 hours ago, CEB said:

Yes everyone here gots it.  It depends.  It is both depending on conditions.   

 

Personally these days I try very hard not to think of it.  I think of structures and more often I think of number more than letters.  

I fall out somewhere along here, too. There are some times where it's obvious that the chord represents a "G that's flat" and not an "F that's sharp." But if I'm playing a tune in real time, I'm not sure I'm naming the chords based on key, but rather on intervals and shapes. I'd have to check in with myself next time an "ambiguous" chord flies by, like this F#/Gb example. I think the ones next to the "valleys" are the most ambiguous ones--Bb, Db, Eb, Gb (or their corresponding sharp keys). 

[bjosko]

A good question, I think it demand a little about where you are living. I am used to say Ciss, Diss, Fiss, Giss (C#, D#, F#, G#, xx) and the last one I will discuss below, it migh be called a Bb, and seldom a A# or Ass as we would pronounce it. 

Recently our bass player have started to use some online tab resource, I think it is something like Tabs, Ultimate Guitar or whatever, and he has suddenly starting to say Fb, Gb and so on.

 

I grow up in Norway, and spent nearly 20 year in different bands there, and here we called the key between A and C for H ! The key between them was a small b - and not Bb. I have been told that was from the German sheet system.

Almost 30 years ago I moved to Denmark, and here it is called Bb and B. The other notes are still called Fis, Dis or F#, D# and so on, but it are easier to say Fis or F# as it are written than Gb. So I am still strugling a bit when someone call out a tune in B - was it B or Bb he said …. 

[analogika]

2 hours ago, bjosko said:

A good question, I think it demand a little about where you are living. I am used to say Ciss, Diss, Fiss, Giss (C#, D#, F#, G#, xx) and the last one I will discuss below, it migh be called a Bb, and seldom a A# or Ass as we would pronounce it. 

Recently our bass player have started to use some online tab resource, I think it is something like Tabs, Ultimate Guitar or whatever, and he has suddenly starting to say Fb, Gb and so on.

 

I grow up in Norway, and spent nearly 20 year in different bands there, and here we called the key between A and C for H ! The key between them was a small b - and not Bb. I have been told that was from the German sheet system.

Almost 30 years ago I moved to Denmark, and here it is called Bb and B. The other notes are still called Fis, Dis or F#, D# and so on, but it are easier to say Fis or F# as it are written than Gb. So I am still strugling a bit when someone call out a tune in B - was it B or Bb he said …. 

I thought Norway followed the German convention in calling a g# "gis" and a gb "ges"? Db is "des", D# "dis", Ab is "As", while A# is "A-is", etc… 

 

I work with musicians all the time who aren’t formally trained and will call an A# ("Ais") a Bb ("B"), but that’s because it’s what they’re familiar with, and because they’re unaware (or don’t care) that those are different notes, and one of them is wrong. 
 

I shudder to think how much purely financial damage has been caused by the B/H thing, by the way — get a bunch of seasoned pros in a room for a rehearsal, pass out a chord sheet with a "B" on it, and I can guarantee that half of them will be playing Bb and half of them B natural. Stop - clarify - start over. Times six or so professional hourly wages… I’m sure it’s no trivial sum over the course of a year in this country alone. 

[Baldwin Funster]

I'd rather have a sharp F than a flat G any day.

 

I don't know what that means...

[Leroy C]

Are you playing in an orchestra?  Then it's F#.

 

Are you playing in a concert band?  Then it's Gb.

 

[bjosko]

2 hours ago, analogika said:

I thought Norway followed the German convention in calling a g# "gis" and a gb "ges"? Db is "des", D# "dis", Ab is "As", while A# is "A-is", etc… 

 

I work with musicians all the time who aren’t formally trained and will call an A# ("Ais") a Bb ("B"), but that’s because it’s what they’re familiar with, and because they’re unaware (or don’t care) that those are different notes, and one of them is wrong. 
 

I seems to remember the ges an des name, but it is nothing I have been using.

My father was a clarinet and sax player, and played in a marching band. He was also a instructor for new members, and tried to incorporate some of the theories to me, but I never had the patience to learn scoresheets ( or to play a clarinet or sax ).

But I know that many of the scores they used was written in Germany, so I guess that have some influence on the B and H description.

[McBones]

On 1/28/2024 at 4:14 PM, Baldwin Funster said:

I'd rather have a sharp F than a flat G any day.

 

I don't know what that means...

 

Same here.  Just more comfortable thinking in F# vs. Gb.  Couldn't say why.   That said, both represent the key of WTF!   

[Dave Ferris]

Jazz people like myself usually defer to flat keys but there are many cases when F# enters into the mix.

 

Take the bridge on Cherokee when the first modulation goes to the key of B. I'm thinking C#m7 to F#7 the whole way. Same with the bridge on "The Song Is You". That goes to the key of E, so I'm thinking F#m7 to B7 there.

 

I Remember April - F# all the way through. Con Alma starts in the key of E, so more F#s.

 

On Giant Steps, on the first chord, B Maj., I'm always thinking sharps all through that sequence with the D7 and G Maj.7, before it gets to the Bb7.  F#  is a common tone for those chords.

 

On Recorda Me, I'm thinking F# over the Am chord for the first 4 bars. But when it goes to Cm, I'm in flats for the rest of the tune because of the descending  ii-Vs in whole steps starting with Bb.

 

On the Strayhorn tunes like Isfahan, Upper Manhattan Medical Group, Lush Life, those are Db tonal center, so  I'm always thinking Gb there.

 

It just depends on the particular tune.

[CHarrell]

Bit of a tangent, but I've encountered several musicians in my life (older musicians), who have told me that keys don't matter because they're all the same (meaning you can take a tune like Reincarnation of a Lovebird in F# minor and take it up to G minor as it's seen in the Real Book with no difference at all in feeling).

 

It absolutely blows my mind that there are people who genuinely believe this....unless of course they're trying to avoid having to remember all the pesky accidentals.

 

Other note: when I'm writing music and creating parts for players, I always consider ease of readability as foremost, as some others have said. So if I have a tune in F#m and I'm giving it to an alto sax player (Eb transposing), even though it'd technically transpose to D#min, I'll go through and enharmonically change everything to Ebmin, because I think that's way easier to read.

[xp50player]

No F# major key signature necessary when Gb works just fine. F# can be used in a flat key, if the function make sense. I would not destroy the functional notation of a scale run or altered chord to force all flats in a flat key.

[Baldwin Funster]

Non enharmonic accidentals.  

 

 

[konaboy]

some very smart music theorists here, thank you for all the answers.

 

actually the question came up simply because I wrote out the keys for the circle of fifths, just as a "cheat sheet" when practising.

still none the wiser what to write in this situation 

after all this, i guess the answer is whatever I want, it doesn't matter.

[Bobadohshe]

Sight reading in Gb is a little easier for me and I'd rather see it, but as others said, it really does help to know where the tune is headed. Play enough classical and you don't get as phased by tons of double sharps or double flats. And I'd rather see double sharps than double flats. I know it doesn't make sense.

[Floyd Tatum]

6 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Non enharmonic accidentals.  

 

 

Fascinating