Nord Stage 4 Announced

[AUSSIEKEYS]

4 hours ago, Stokely said:

 it's kind of weird how other companies nibble at the edges of the Stage but don't go all the way.  It's almost like there's a treaty not to step on its toes.

 

Yep there is an international treaty presently.

 

But the "shite" will hit the fan when Nord introduces their NORD STREAM.

 

But Nords domination ends with the followup the NORD STREAM II.

 

Will synth manufacturer domination be the end of the world as we know it?

 

Stay tuned for next weeks epidsode.

[cphollis]

Another aspect that I think is relevant here?  I don't need the "best" in any single category (AP, B3, synth, etc.) or anything close to it.

 

The way I mostly use the NS3 is to blend up to 6 engines to create interesting sounds.  It does this very, very well.   Mostly, it's a primary sound with one or more "flavors" in the background, just to keep it engaging.

 

Yes, I will occasionally use a naked, single-engine sound like AP or B3, and -- as others have said -- no one complains about the leslie sim, etc.  It's all top-shelf stuff that sounds marvelous through great gear, but there will be purists who demand more from their B3 or EP for example.  And there are plenty of dedicated instruments that will go that extra mile for you.

 

But if you're into textured sounds, it has a remarkable ability to make that very intuitive, even more so on the NS4.

 

 

[U.Honey]

2 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

I do see a number of concerns on the support forum about removing the song list feature, though I have a different set of state loads for both my Wave 2 and Stage 3 and use the Programs where both keyboards have the patch names and changes in order of the show.  I can change orders and add/remove things in Programs in Nord Sound Manager but don’t use the song features to point to other patches.  I am interested in seeing how setlist management is optimized in the new Stage though.

 

I'm using the song mode with my NS3 all the time. It really helps in a situation where I need to use multiple patches within a song. Basically, the song mode gives me an instant access (=one button press) up to 5 different patches. Or alternatively, with a foot switch I can have 5 patches one after another just by kicking the foot pedal. I could produce the same result by organizing the patches so that the sounds for one song are all in one bank, but that would mean having to make a lot of copies of the same sound. So, I certainly hope the song mode is somehow still there with the Nord Stage 4.

[Charleston]

3 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I’m not in the market, but interested in this issue regardless.  Have they not employed a proper sounding note steeling scheme?  

Not according to those videos.

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Charleston said:

Not according to those videos.

Ok, if you use a SuperNatural piano and layer it with two or more sounds that use the same engine (shared polyphony) there is going to be noticeable note stealing.  The solution Roland offers is to use a different engine, VPiano, Zencore, VTW (included in its design) for one or more of those layers.  
 

By contrast Nord Stage 2 had only 40-60 poly in its piano engine, that went up to 120 on the Stage 3 and 4, and they’ve always implemented creative note stealing.  

Yamaha Montage has 128 note polyphony for their AWM2 engine and use 3 or more layers for their CFX piano (I’m certain this method is related to their voice allocation scheme to avoid note stealing among other issues).  

 

Back on Fantom, what’s interesting is I’m having trouble finding what the polyphony of the SN engine is and what the reasons might be that they haven’t implemented a better note stealing algorithm for their SN acoustic.  
 

 

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

NORD STREAM

 

NORD STREAM II

 

 

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

13 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yamaha Montage has 128 note polyphony for their AWM2 engine and use 3 or more layers for their CFX piano (I’m certain this method is related to their voice allocation scheme to avoid note stealing among other issues).  

The biggest CFX has (IIRC) 18 layers (split over 4 Parts), but no more than two layers (a note On and a release sound) are ever triggered for a single note strike. The others trigger at different velocities. At least that's what I remember from one of Blake Angelos' videos.

 

Their note stealing algorithm is not straight-forward. My understanding is that, to some extent, it favors whatever sound is in the first Part.

 

13 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Back on Fantom, what’s interesting is I’m having trouble finding what the polyphony of the SN engine is and what the reasons might be that they haven’t implemented a better note stealing algorithm for their SN acoustic.  

The Fantom polyphony for SN is not published AFAIK. It could very well be different for every SN sound. SN is not a single technology, it is a catch-all phrase for incorporating modeling. The actual programming/modeling for a SN piano could well be quite different from an SN string section, and if one is more demanding of resources than the other, then it may have different polyphony. 

 

It is rare that any company tells you why something doesn't work well (if they even admit that it doesn't). At one extreme, they could have not (yet) realized it was a problem; at the other extreme, they know about it, but haven't (yet) figured out how to fix it, or fix it in such a way that it doesn't cause some other problem elsewhere. Though really, in the end, knowing the reason why doesn't really help us. We have what we have, and either it works or does not, in the context of our usage.

 

I did watch part of that first video, where he said he could solve the issue by switching to a V-Piano, but at the expense of seamless scene switching. I don't know if he ever addressed the opposite solution, i.e. instead of switching from a SN piano to the V-Piano, try switching from a SN piano to a (likely less resource-intensive) Zen-Core piano.

 

The funny thing is, I've run into polyphony problems with one of Roland's first-screen demo scenes (which are designed to show off the machine), but never run into it with any sound combination I've set up myself. They might want to rethink their demo scenes. ;-)

 

 

 

 

[Stokely]

I sincerely doubt polyphony would be an issue for the live music I play (with no tracks/arps/sequences).   In fact if I were to hit polyphony problems on the Fantom, I'd say that's a good sign I'm overplaying.   Heck I found the limitations of many of my keyboards of yesteryear to improve my parts and we are talking as few as six notes here.

I agree with the idea above that I don't need best in class for every sound, but there is a minimum threshold that all of us have   My Nord Electro was fine in every aspect, I just can't pay that much of a premium to get a poly synth and more layering than I'll need.

I'm still considering a NS3 if I can make a couple sales.   It would be down to the 88 NS3 vs one of the two synth-action Fantoms.  Still kicking around the idea of a used Kronos too but the main draw there is that it's cheaper and I usually regret buying for that reason.  My friend gigs his Fantom 8 in a 30 pound hard case and that would murder my vehicle trying to load/unload it, if it didn't murder my body first.   If I had a van I'd definitely consider it though if it could fit in my Gator semi-rigid rolling case (the thing is huge).

[HammondDave]

My colleagues stated most my objections. However, I think that it’s important to stress the fixed split points would be a total deal breaker for this musician. For many songs I have my MODX split into three sections. Being able to specify split points is crucial when using a 73 or 76 keyboard.  

 

Also, not upgrading an inferior Hammond engine is inexcusable in this day and age… especially for that price. 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

The biggest CFX has (IIRC) 18 layers (split over 4 Parts), but no more than two layers (a note On and a note Off) are ever triggered for a single note strike. The others trigger at different velocities. At least that's what I remember from one of Blake Angelos' videos.

 

Their note stealing algorithm is not straight-forward. My understanding is that, to some extent, it favors whatever sound is in the first Part.

 

The Fantom polyphony for SN is not published AFAIK. It could very well be different for every SN sound. SN is not a single technology, it is a catch-all phrase for incorporating modeling. The actual programming/modeling for a SN piano could well be quite different from an SN string section, and if one is more demanding of resources than the other, then it may have different polyphony. 

 

It is rare that any company tells you why something doesn't work well (if they even admit that it doesn't). At one extreme, they could have not (yet) realized it was a problem; at the other extreme, they know about it, but haven't (yet) figured out how to fix it, or fix it in such a way that it doesn't cause some other problem elsewhere. Though really, in the end, knowing the reason why doesn't really help us. We have what we have, and either it works or does not, in the context of our usage.

 

I did watch part of that first video, where he said he could solve the issue by switching to a V-Piano, but at the expense of seamless scene switching. I don't know if he ever addressed the opposite solution, i.e. instead of switching from a SN piano to the V-Piano, try switching from a SN piano to a (likely less resource-intensive) Zen-Core piano.

 

The funny thing is, I've run into polyphony problems with one of Roland's first-screen demo scenes (which are designed to show off the machine), but never run into it with any sound combination I've set up myself. They might want to rethink their demo scenes. 😉

 

 

 

 

Fascinating stuff.  But that’s the game.  Developers get their engines to run on whatever hardware they’ve budgeted for this time around.  Squeeze aa much juice from the orange as they can.  Firmware/software  updates come as long as units are selling.  At some point that’s as much as they’ll invest in the current model and their attention shifts to the forthcoming replacement.  
 

That said - hey, the Fantom is running SN, VTW, VPiano and Zencore without needing to purchase additional DSP cards. It’s as robust a platform as any being offered today in a flagship synth. 

[niacin]

53 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

My colleagues stated most my objections. However, I think that it’s important to stress the fixed split points would be a total deal breaker for this musicians. For many songs I have my MODX split into three sections. Being able to specify split points is crucial when using a 73 or 76 keyboard.  

 

Also, not upgrading an inferior Hammond engine is inexcusable in this day and age… especially for that price. 

Jim Alfredson once described Clavia’s Hammond sound as a synthesist’s idea of a Hammond. Maybe they’ve polished it as best they can given the basic tone. Ditto the Leslie: it’s one of the hardest effects to get right, and Yamaha seem to have tried their best to fix the one in their YC and it’s ok but not great, maybe the folks at Clavia just can’t improve what they have. 

 

100% agree about the split points though, burying the option in a menu is fine, just do it

[MathOfInsects]

I also just realized: I use the “Live” setting on my organ, so the drawbars are WYSIWYG, always. For people who don’t use that option (and why wouldn’t you?), the LEDs might be more of a benefit.

[Josh Paxton]

Something I don't think was mentioned (or if it was, I missed it): when was the last time Nord updated their Clav samples?

[ImproKeys]

11 hours ago, EricBarker said:

At first the LEDs on the NS4 seemed snazzy. But then I found myself asking “but can I turn them off?” Because I don’t think I really need them and they’d be more of a distraction than a convenience. I do like that they have physical drawfaders on all models now, and I get they felt the need to put the LEDs to satisfy those that just NEED to have their visual data in-sync at all times. 

In Live Mode the drawbar LEDs are off, according to Anderton‘s video. 

[MathOfInsects]

14 hours ago, ImproKeys said:

In Live Mode the drawbar LEDs are off, according to Anderton‘s video. 

Interesting. So I'll double down on the comment that there's no real value-add if you've been using a Compact all along. It's handy for the preset situation, but there was already a screen to tell you that. I never wished also had LEDs. Someone conjectured early on that this might be the result, and my feeling at the time is the same sense of "cute, but..." (and who doesn't like a cute but) as where I am now: It adds value (drawbars) to the weighted versions, but makes the semi-weighted slightly less organ-like. 

When the first Nord Stage was released--almost 20 years ago probably, right?--I saw it listed all over Ebay and hated that smug and weird mascot of a board. I avoided it intentionally. Then I played it and found it ideal for my needs, though with some caveats. 

Over the years, it's become more and more well-suited to my needs, and its value is much greater than its cost (to me). 

But that first polarizing impression, where I hated it out of hand, still seems to follow this board around. I don't love everything Nord does, and don't even love my NS3C because it's a Nord, I love it because it more "almost perfectly" suits the needs I have most often, than any other single option.

But a lot of people who hate these boards, hate them because they are Nords. Sort of like the hate for Iphones or the Patriots. Well, the Patriots I can understand. 

I'm curious...for the thread/board, among those who hate Nord: what percentage of that hate would say is ultimately because of the color, on some level? Like, if the same exact board looked like a Kronos and always had, what percentage of your hatred would still exist, and what might never have arisen?

[AnotherScott]

3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Interesting. So I'll double down on the comment that there's no real value-add if you've been using a Compact all along. It's handy for the preset situation, but there was already a screen to tell you that.

 

They stay out of your way if you're strictly in live drawbar mode, like the real thing, as you'd like. But as for the rest, see: https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/184719-nord-stage-4-announced/?do=findComment&comment=2936945

 

 

3 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

 if the same exact board looked like a Kronos and always had, what percentage of your hatred would still exist, and what might never have arisen?

 

I'm not an example of a Nord hater so not the target of your question... but I really dislike the aesthetics and related operational ergonomics of the black Kronos (apart from the screen). All of those undifferentiated black controls on black background, all running into each other, is just really terrible design to my way of thinking. Not a pleasure to operate at all. The titanium is better, but for god's sake, leave some space between the buttons.

[MAJUSCULE]

18 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I also just realized: I use the “Live” setting on my organ, so the drawbars are WYSIWYG, always. For people who don’t use that option (and why wouldn’t you?), the LEDs might be more of a benefit.

Do you mean you keep one of your five Live slots on the NS3C set to the B3 engine, and use Panel A and B as two manuals? I do the same thing. But… if you move the drawbars while you’re on another patch, and then come back to the Live B3 patch, the drawbar position won’t reflect the patch anymore, right? Or am I misremembering? As soon as you move a drawbar, you’re able to see the current registration, of course.

 

Unless you’re talking about something else, in which case I’ll shut up.

[MathOfInsects]

13 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

Do you mean you keep one of your five Live slots on the NS3C set to the B3 engine, and use Panel A and B as two manuals? I do the same thing. But… if you move the drawbars while you’re on another patch, and then come back to the Live B3 patch, the drawbar position won’t reflect the patch anymore, right? Or am I misremembering? As soon as you move a drawbar, you’re able to see the current registration, of course.

 

Unless you’re talking about something else, in which case I’ll shut up.

Something else.  
 

Right above the Preset 2 button for the organ is a “Live” button. This changes the drawbars to WYSIWYG. I actually don’t understand why it’s not the default; the “snapshot” version is useful for specific patches, but annoying for general organ playing.

[Al Quinn]

Hate is too strong a word to describe how I feel. I’d say I disliked my Stage 2 HA 88 and Electro 4ED. There were a few reasons and, unfortunately, they cast too big a shadow over the positives (e.g., it’s easily the most intuitive / friendly user interface, the software manager app is friendly, the user manual is great, and the online community is the second coolest place to be on the web 😎).
 

The primary reason I disliked both of my Nords was the action / finger-to-ear connection). I had so much trouble getting into the zone with those boards — the compromised finger-to-ear resulted in me having less fun and, likely, not playing as well as I could. This was THE showstopper for me.
 

Putting the action / FTE aside for a moment, I liked the APs (especially for recording), the Hammond is weak and uninspiring (although it gets by when in the background), the EPs are not realistic but they sound good in their own way and are fun to play, strings are weak, horns are weak, I like the Stage 2 synth a lot. I have no hate for red but prefer black or dark gray.

 

I know many fine players enjoy their Nords, which is great. I’m sincerely happy for them. I wonder if my struggles are the result of practicing on an acoustic grand and A100/Leslie 145. In other words, if a Nord was what I practiced on and gigged with would I then get used to the action and not get jolted by it? Idk

 

One last thing / disappointment: I’ve heard a lot about the great resale value. For me that wasn’t the case for either sale. I did fine but not exceptional like I heard it would be.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

Hate is too strong a word to describe how I feel. I’d say I disliked my Stage 2 HA 88 and Electro 4ED. There were a few reasons and, unfortunately, they cast too big a shadow over the positives (e.g., it’s easily the most intuitive / friendly user interface, the software manager app is friendly, the user manual is great, and the online community is the second coolest place to be on the web 😎).
 

The primary reason I disliked both of my Nords was the action / finger-to-ear connection). I had so much trouble getting into the zone with those boards — the compromised finger-to-ear resulted in me having less fun and, likely, not playing as well as I could. This was THE showstopper for me.
 

Putting the action / FTE aside for a moment, I liked the APs (especially for recording), the Hammond is weak and uninspiring (although it gets by when in the background), the EPs are not realistic but they sound good in their own way and are fun to play, strings are weak, horns are weak, I like the Stage 2 synth a lot. I have no hate for red but prefer black or dark gray.

 

I know many fine players enjoy their Nords, which is great. I’m sincerely happy for them. I wonder if my struggles are the result of practicing on an acoustic grand and A100/Leslie 145. In other words, if a Nord was what I practiced on and gigged with would I then get used to the action and not get jolted by it? Idk

 

One last thing / disappointment: I’ve heard a lot about the great resale value. For me that wasn’t the case for either sale. I did fine but not exceptional like I heard it would be.

All this would seem to be squarely in the YMMV category, rather than the "If ____ makes it, I start out hating it" category. Not every keyboard is for every person, for sure. 

 

I also don't think the Stage line is ideal for people who tend to do mainly keyboard and/or mainly organ. The action is a compromise that (IMO) two separate boards would offer price-competitive ways around.

 

Though interestingly, your last experience with the Stage and the Electro were before the last Great Leaps Forward, which I think changed the landscape a bit. 

I may have said this in this very thread, but definitely somewhere else: I'd be very curious to know your thoughts on the Nord Grand actions and FTE connection, if you get to lay hands on. That's a whole different league, IMO. 

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

But a lot of people who hate these boards, hate them because they are Nords. Sort of like the hate for Iphones or the Patriots. Well, the Patriots I can understand. 

I'm curious...for the thread/board, among those who hate Nord: what percentage of that hate would say is ultimately because of the color, on some level? Like, if the same exact board looked like a Kronos and always had, what percentage of your hatred would still exist, and what might never have arisen?

 

I don't view people's objective or subjective dislike of their products as "hate".    That presumes to read people's mind.

It's like, "Well, people aren't rationally thinking as I do, so it must come down to an irrational 'hate'.   And I'll bet it's because of the color of the board".

[MathOfInsects]

20 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I don't view people's objective or subjective dislike of their products as "hate".    That presumes to read people's mind.

It's like, "Well, people aren't rationally thinking as I do, so it must come down to an irrational 'hate'.   And I'll bet it's because of the color of the board".

Well, sure, there are plenty of folks who dislike them or any other board for reasons like Al's above--all within YMMV.

 

Our rigs are very personal choices, and I can tell you endless things I could see people not liking about Nords. There's a ton I don't like, it's just that what I do like makes it the right "single board" for me (for what I do. If my work shifts in a significant way, other options will be better suited). 

There are also plenty of folks who find Nord smug and cold and practically self-righteous in their pricing, and wouldn't be caught dead with one of their products in their rig. TBH I was one of those originally. We all have products like that. You don't have to read minds to know this, it's a human thing. And people who dislike Nord tend to do so with more passion than they dislike other boards. 

 

That's who I'm asking this of. If that's not you, right on.

 

I've been curious, among those folks, what role that damned paint job has in their initial impressions. It had a big one on mine. I hated it, and the entire marketing approach at the time. It's not at all impossible that I liked Nords more because of the pleasant surprise that I liked them, than I would have in their own right. By the same token, I bet there are people who disliked what they they dislike about them, more because they confirmed things the people were initially predisposed to think, than they would have in their own right, if it was just any other board in the wild.

[AnotherScott]

I've never disliked a brand. As for appearance, I guess the closest is that I dislike the over-sized and angular look of the AX-Edge, but I bought it anyway. 

[EricBarker]

29 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I've never disliked a brand. As for appearance, I guess the closest is that I dislike the over-sized and angular look of the AX-Edge, but I bought it anyway. 

 

To me, the Ax-Edge is just WAY too "On the Nose". This gets into meta-performance issues because Keytars are inherently ALWAYS going to be a bit silly. But the Edge falls into an uncanny valley where it feels like it's taking itself too seriously. If the performer embraces the theatrical "I'm pretending to be a badass, wink wink", it works, but if not, it just comes across pretty cringe.

And it's made a little more complicated by the fact that the Edge is actually a legitimately GOOD instrument.

[Al Quinn]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I also don't think the Stage line is ideal for people who tend to do mainly keyboard and/or mainly organ. The action is a compromise that (IMO) two separate boards would offer price-competitive ways around.

 
I bought the Stage 2 HA88 expecting it to be the Swiss-army knife of keyboards — a one board solution for AP, EP, B3, clav, brass, horns, and synth. I used it on quite a few Classic Rock gigs where I utilized many of the sounds. I also used it for some R&B, Fusion, Blues, and Smooth Jazz gigs and sessions. I was expecting to be pleased, or at least content. I went into it with such a positive attitude that it took awhile (about 2 years) for me to admit to myself that it wasn’t for me. My biggest concern going into it was whether I could play organ and synth on that action; surprisingly, those challenges weren’t bad.

[MathOfInsects]

12 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

 
I bought the Stage 2 HA88 expecting it to be the Swiss-army knife of keyboards — a one board solution for AP, EP, B3, clav, brass, horns, and synth. I used it on quite a few Classic Rock gigs where I utilized many of the sounds. I also used it for some R&B, Fusion, Blues, and Smooth Jazz gigs and sessions. I was expecting to be pleased, or at least content. I went into it with such a positive attitude that it took awhile (about 2 years) for me to admit to myself that it wasn’t for me. My biggest concern going into it was whether I could play organ and synth on that action; surprisingly, those challenges weren’t bad.

Yeah, the horns/brass sucks, and the clav is marginal. I agree with those who say the EP’s haven’t advanced, though for me this is easier to EQ/effect around.

 

Wave integration should help with the sample-based sounds.

 

Just curious, did you end up with a different swiss army board for that band, or two (or more) different boards?

[cphollis]

I can echo @Al Quinn's thoughts on the NS2.  I, too, had one and wanted to like it as a do-anything board.  Except that I couldn't connect with the pianos, the organs, etc.  It did everything, but no one thing well enough that I could like it.  The situation improved when I moved to a NS3C with a weighted keybed.  All of the sudden, I started connecting with the pianos, organs, etc. and a new world opened up as a result.

 

As far as the color red creating impressions, mine were a mix of positive and negative prior to purchasing my first Electro 3.  I thought it a flashy market gimmick aimed at wannabee keyboard gods.  But it was an attractive color, so ....

[Al Quinn]

8 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Just curious, did you end up with a different swiss army board for that band, or two (or more) different boards?

I went back to two boards. I’m using a YC73 below with SK Pro 61 on top and loving it!

 

I haven’t given up on the Swiss Army knife single board. I’m feeling optimistic that the YC73 will fit the bill. It shows great promise at home. I’m going to try it alone on an electric blues gig in a few weeks; that’ll be the real test. The gig will likely call for AP, EP, B3, and maybe some clav and synth. If the YC73 Hammond sound falls short I’ll try it again with the HX3 Expander module which I already own and love. That would be a more complicated single-board rig than I’d like so I’m hoping the YC73 alone does well. 

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I agree with those who say the EP’s haven’t advanced, though for me this is easier to EQ/effect around.

 

Yes, but this is also one of the big improvements in the NS4. Elaborating on something I said earlier...

 

For me, one of the weakest aspects of the NS3 was not being able to save piano and organ sounds individually. Say you come up with a great Rhodes sound (via effects, EQ, amp sim) and you wanted to routinely use that Rhodes sound in conjunction with other sounds in various Programs. There was no way to save that sound in a way that you could easily integrate it when assembling new Programs. You'd either have to dial it in from scratch every time, or you'd have to go to a Program that contained that Rhodes sound, then copy-and-paste that Panel into the new place you wanted to use it (which also meant obliterating anything else you may have already put into that panel before you pasted your Rhodes-containing panel into that Program). And forget just calling up that Rhodes live, at the spur of the moment in a Performance, without obliterating the rest of the sounds you're playing. But now you'll be able to store your tweaked Rhodes sound as its own, independently recallable element.

The ability to do this is related to the additional effects capabilities. This really couldn't have been done before, when each panel could have only one set of effect parameters... i.e. what would have happened if you had tried to import an independent rhodes-with-fx/eq into a program whose panel already had other sounds with different fx/eq settings? Either the Rhodes wouldn't sound like you expected (defeating the purpose), or you could be messing up the other sounds you'd already made part of that panel.

 

 

[kenheeter]

Al, I'm really looking forward to your review on the YC73, I can't put my hands on one to try the action. I had a YC61 and mostly liked it but I don't want a 61 key unweighted.