Nord Stage 4 Announced

[Spider76]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I can't figure out the reaction to the price. I mean I can, because it's on-script, but is anyone really surprised? Our previous Nords weren't exactly basement-bargains.

Nobody is saying previous Nords were cheap.

But at least their (high) prices have been very consistent for at least a dozen years. Now we have a jump of +45% from one model to the next.

There's not much that we can do about that (covid, inflation, war, yada yada) but I  guess many previous Stage owners simply will not be able to upgrade.

 

Maybe that's something Clavia has already taken into account, and they hope to make up for it with their other models. The Electro in particular has grown a lot in features, and it's now almost  a "Stage Lite"

[MathOfInsects]

32 minutes ago, Spider76 said:

Now we have a jump of +45% from one model to the next.

Where in the world did you get this? The NS3 was 5299, the NS4 is 5699. 

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, Spider76 said:

Nobody is saying previous Nords were cheap.

But at least their (high) prices have been very consistent for at least a dozen years. Now we have a jump of +45% from one model to the next.

There's not much that we can do about that (covid, inflation, war, yada yada) but I  guess many previous Stage owners simply will not be able to upgrade.

 

Maybe that's something Clavia has already taken into account, and they hope to make up for it with their other models. The Electro in particular has grown a lot in features, and it's now almost  a "Stage Lite"

 

The issue for me is from my POV it's not that big of a upgrade.   They did not upgrade the organ or leslie,  piano was just an control panel change, some new samples that would a been an upgrade worth the big price jump.   Basically most the new stuff is reworking of the control panel, some addition effects routing, and synth got most the changes.    I guess if you main interest is synth you're loving the Stage 4 and content with the price, for me mainly a AP and EP person no need to move from my Stage 3 to a Stage 4.   In fact it got me thinks of maybe ditching the Stage 3 and get CP88.

[Stokely]

I don't think we are spoiled overall but that gets into economic issues far beyond keyboards.   Considering how much most other things have inflated--clothes being one exception--I'll take whatever breaks I can get.   I do agree that it's relative to other options, that's the bottom line.  I'm very glad those options exist, otherwise I'd not be looking at any flagship models at all.   I'm sure Nord has done their homework and knows how much they can charge and still sell as many as they can make.  And if they are wrong, maybe we'll see a price drop   

[jeffincltnc]

57 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

The issue for me is from my POV it's not that big of a upgrade.   They did upgrade the organ or leslie,  piano was just an control panel change and some new sample that would a been an upgrade worth the big price jump.   Basically most the new stuff in reworking of the control panel, some addition effects routing, and synth got most the change.    I guess if you main interest is synth you're loving the Stage 4 and content with the price, for me mainly a AP and EP person no need to move from my Stage 3 to a Stage 4.   In fact it got me thinks of maybe ditching the Stage 3 and get CP88.

 

You're seeing the writing on the wall that contemporary sounds involve a lot of different use of textures and movement in the synths and pads and the new control surface is optimized to make those shapes in the sound much more flexibly when layered under something like a piano (often using variation of delays, compressor, etc.).  I disagree that there is no change to piano because the triple sensor keyboards and the return of a quality hammer action piano keyboard in a 73 key size are important.

 

Look, I'll just say it like I think it is.  A number of people here are resentful that the price of this new Nord Stage doesn't include any big new samples for the rhodes, wurlitzer, clav or CP80 as the basis for its value.   The heyday of the time when most popular music was played from some impossible rig covering a Hammond B3 with a Leslie, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clav, Vox/Farfisa and maybe a CP80 and Mellotron was fairly peaked out in the 60's and 70's.   That music is now a half a century old and Nord has seen the writing on the wall that its customers are not aging B3 and Rhodes players who they can upgrade to another model, it's targeting the player who wants more control over multi layered synths and pads in a real time performance board without menu diving into all of the parameters and effects chains.

 

It worked well to put the vintage sounds into the Electro 2 and upgrade those users along the way into Stage for an all in one piano and synth instrument, but I don't think the Stage 4 is going after the Vintage Vibe or XK5 customer either.   For what it is, I think it's looking amazing.

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, jeffinpghpa said:

The heyday of the time when a dream rig was a Hammond B3 with a Leslie, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clav,  and maybe a CP80 and Mellotron was fairly peaked out in the 60's and 70's.   That music is now a half a century old and Nord has seen the writing on the wall that its customers are not aging B3 and Rhodes players who they can upgrade to another model, it's targeting the player who wants more control over multi layered synths and pads in a real time performance board without menu diving into all of the parameters and effects chains.

Brotha Jeff just wrote the quiet part out loud. 😁

 

Nord is definitely leaning forward.  Listen to the demos.  The handwriting is clearly legible too.😎

[Iconoclast]

52 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

The issue for me is from my POV it's not that big of a upgrade.   They did upgrade the organ or leslie,  piano was just an control panel change and some new sample that would a been an upgrade worth the big price jump.   Basically most the new stuff in reworking of the control panel, some addition effects routing, and synth got most the change.    I guess if you main interest is synth you're loving the Stage 4 and content with the price, for me mainly a AP and EP person no need to move from my Stage 3 to a Stage 4.   In fact it got me thinks of maybe ditching the Stage 3 and get CP88.

I'll engage on this.  It's 50% more synth layers and an improved synth.  That was one of the limitations I frequently ran into with the NS3 was needing one more synth layer/split instead of a whole new patch.

Drawbars were a major deal for me and I always carry around DBS-1 drawbars for that exact reason. This will replace and improve on those.

NS4 effects section is a QUANTUM leap forward. Double the number and type of effects and 4 times the layers of effects.  The NS3 effects section was it's biggest weakness.

They did say that there's new samples that are specific to the stage 4 but we won't know how much of an improvement that is until we get them.

Having a 73 key version with the full-up hammer action keyboard is a major plus for me.

Ask yourself this: Was the NS2EX->NS3 transition a bigger improvement in capability?  I don't think so.

[Docbop]

Y'all say it forward leaning,  I say a performance instrument especially at that price needs to address the entire marketplace of users not just those leaning. 

[Iconoclast]

Just now, Docbop said:

Y'all say it forward leaning,  I say a performance instrument especially at that price needs to address the entire marketplace of users not just those leaning. 

How would you compare the NS2EX->NS3->NS4?

I think there's a bigger jump in capability on the last transition than the previous one. I bought the NS3 when it first came out and I clearly remember many of these same arguments being made about expense, not really that much of an improvement etc.

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, Docbop said:

Y'all say it forward leaning,  I say a performance instrument especially at that price needs to address the entire marketplace of users not just those leaning. 

But if you have an NS3, and don’t care about the synth part or the effects routing or the triple sensor or the weighted keys on the smaller board, then the NS4 costs you nothing, since you would have little reason to buy it. You’re all set with the 3. No? 

[octa]

If I hadn't recently spent a fortune on Macbook + VSTs and if they'd upgraded organ, I'd definitely be into the HA 73 version, tho I might only use the ARP function once every 5 years. 

 

Nord, please make that new single sustain pedal work with Piano 5. . 

[MathOfInsects]

I don know if the Piano has a synth, but the Grand does. If people really only need bread, butter, and some pepper, that might be a good, cheaper option than the Stage. The action is fire-emoji.

[octa]

11 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don know if the Piano has a synth, but the Grand does. If people really only need bread, butter, and some pepper, that might be a good, cheaper option than the Stage. The action is fire-emoji.

Piano 5 has slightly better (for piano at least) triple sensor HA action than new Stage 4 models, and 2X sample synth of the Nord Grand, using newer sample technology, also found in Nord Stage 4. 

[jeffincltnc]

11 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don know if the Piano has a synth, but the Grand does. If people really only need bread, butter, and some pepper, that might be a good, cheaper option than the Stage. The action is fire-emoji.

 

Nord Grand does not have the synth, it has one piano + one sample layer, coupled with a Kawai hammer action.

 

The Nord Piano 5 does not have the synth, but it has two piano + two sample layers, coupled with a triple sensor Fatar TP-40 action, so effectively 2X the layers as the Nord Grand, but a more streamlined (traditional/flat) form factor and about 5 pounds lighter.

[jeffincltnc]

Just now, octa said:

Piano 5 has slightly better (for piano at least) triple sensor HA action than new Stage 4 models, and 2X sample synth of the Nord Grand, using newer sample technology, also found in Nord Stage 4. 

 

Stage 4's have the triple sensor action, but they may be a lighter version to make it more versatile for synth and organ.

[octa]

3 minutes ago, jeffinpghpa said:

 

Stage 4's have the triple sensor action, but they may be a lighter version to make it more versatile for synth and organ.

Maybe it's the same action or very similar to NS3 88, but triple sensor. Jack described it as "posh, for lack of a better term", in recent video. 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, jeffinpghpa said:

 

Nord Grand does not have the synth, it has one piano + one sample layer, coupled with a Kawai hammer action.

 

The Nord Piano 5 does not have the synth, but it has two piano + two sample layers, coupled with a triple sensor Fatar TP-40 action, so effectively 2X the layers as the Nord Grand, but a more streamlined (traditional/flat) form factor and about 5 pounds lighter.

What you’re calling the sample layer is what I’m referring to as the synth. (Plenty of synth patches in there.) For someone who finds the NS4 uncompelling because they don’t care about the synth upgrades, the Grand (or Piano, so I see) might be an option more in their wheelhouse.

 

https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/product-libraries/stage-pianos/nord-grand-factory-sounds

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

But if you have an NS3, and don’t care about the synth part or the effects routing or the triple sensor or the weighted keys on the smaller board, then the NS4 costs you nothing, since you would have little reason to buy it. You’re all set with the 3. No? 

 I spent time working in Marketing and as Product Manager so I like to look at Marketing decisions and if they make sense to me and speculate on the markets reaction.   Even if I own the product.   Part of reading this forum is seeing how products are viewed by the members.   It's all interesting stuff to think about. 

[MathOfInsects]

6 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 I spent time working in Marketing and as Product Manager so I like to look at Marketing decisions and if they make sense to me and speculate on the markets reaction.   Even if I own the product.   Part of reading this forum is seeing how products are viewed by the members.   It's all interesting stuff to think about. 

Got it. Makes sense.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Docbop said:

They did not upgrade the organ or leslie, piano was just an control panel change, some new samples that would a been an upgrade worth the big price jump. 

6 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

A number of people here are resentful that the price of this new Nord Stage doesn't include any big new samples for the rhodes, wurlitzer, clav or CP80 as the basis for its value. 

 

AFAIK, no new model has ever come with new samples to speak of. Their big sample releases (which run on numerous keyboards) are their own release events. Unless maybe they had finally addressed the limitation of single-velocity layer sample library samples, that could have been hardware-related, and would have been significant. But other than that, honestly, the other sounds are already mostly good enough for me. Its pianos are already arguably about the best in any board, the organs near the best of any non-dedicated board, and to me, the biggest shortcoming of the EPs was the inability to easily save your tweaked versions for re-use. The preset library feature addresses that, and in effect, improves the board for EPs. Since most of the sounds were already good enough for me, to me, the place to look for improvement was in usability, and I think they made some nice advances there.

 

6 hours ago, Docbop said:

The issue for me is from my POV it's not that big of a upgrade.

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Ask yourself this: Was the NS2EX->NS3 transition a bigger improvement in capability?  I don't think so.

5 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

How would you compare the NS2EX->NS3->NS4?

I think there's a bigger jump in capability on the last transition than the previous one. I bought the NS3 when it first came out and I clearly remember many of these same arguments being made about expense, not really that much of an improvement etc.

 

One of the things I'm glad about is that almost everything about the NS4 is an improvement, there are very few losses, I think less than there were in moving from the NS2 to the NS3. (The most significant NS4 loss over the NS3 is probably Song Mode, but I thought that implementation was a bit clumsy, an iPad is probably a better solution anyway.)  I'm content with my other boards for now, but for me, an NS4 would offer some significant advantages over the NS3, with almost no trade-offs (except money). 

 

Everyone has their own need, but for my own use, what makes NS4 better is the aforementioned preset library, the 3rd synth engine (meaning you can now do LH bass and still have two other sounds to work with that aren't a piano or organ), the return of 8 program buttons (instead of 5), what looks like a more flexible MIDI implementation, and nicer implementation of some basic synth parameters, specifically the vibrato and envelope options, which seem a lot more nicely usable now. And just the general operational ergonomics seems like it might work better for me. Worth the cost? That calculus is different for everyone. But as is so often the case, I think the most compelling case for an upgrade may not be for owners of the previous generation, but rather for the owners of the generation before that, where there has now been a cumulative combination of a more significant number of changes. 

[cphollis]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don know if the Piano has a synth, but the Grand does. If people really only need bread, butter, and some pepper, that might be a good, cheaper option than the Stage. The action is fire-emoji.

Samples only, and it's all about sounds that pair well with pianos.  Many samples of popular synth pads that are musically useful.  There are a few lead-ish sounds you could use in a pinch.  Think of Nord Piano aiming at the piano-playing singer who wants a nice set of layers.  No useful organ sounds.  Very nice action that suits me well, plus it's short!

[octa]

2 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Samples only,

creating your own samples could lead to some original and useful sounds. . at least that's my plan.

 

I must admit again, the Stage 4 is super tempting, practically speaking. Tho not sure I'd wanna toss $6k in the back of a van. . 

[cphollis]

I would agree with the assessment that the NS4 isn't about any new core sounds, just better manipulation and control of all that firepower, e.g. layer sliders, presets with FX chains and so on.  I am not desirous of doing more of that stuff now, but I can see where it will be interesting and useful before long.  I still haven't figured out how to best utilize all of the NS3, mostly through lack of investing the required time.  It does so much with so little effort I sort of get lazy.

[cphollis]

5 minutes ago, octa said:

 

I must admit again, the Stage 4 is super tempting, practically speaking. Tho not sure I'd wanna toss $6k in the back of a van. . 

Then maybe consider a used NS3?  They were considered one of the most capable performance-oriented boards available until the day before the NS4 announcement.  Also, I use the Nord bags to transport mine, and they're great for local gigs where you are moving your own gear -- exceptionally protective for a soft case.

[octa]

 

29 minutes ago, cphollis said:

Then maybe consider a used NS3?  They were considered one of the most capable performance-oriented boards available until the day before the NS4 announcement.  Also, I use the Nord bags to transport mine, and they're great for local gigs where you are moving your own gear -- exceptionally protective for a soft case.

have been keeping an eye out for HA 76 NS2's, and considering NS3 88's too. (tho not as portable o' course) -- You're right, I've used Nord soft cases a good bit and they protect the Nords well. 

[Nathanael_I]

I just bought the Nord case for my Grand on last month's "sale".  Expensive for a soft case - still $600 with a 40% sale!  But what else to do?  I don't need a flight case for around town, and nothing else will fit it properly. 

 

The Stage4 getting a triple sensor is a very useful thing, IMHO.  Regardless of brand triple sensor seems to improve piano feel across the board. 

 

I think it is very wise of Nord to push the capabilities more toward electronic music and the cool things happening in the interplay between EDM and jazz. J3P0 is just one of many exploring that space.  Interestingly, Nord could do much here with pointed software releases - outside the keyboard itself.  They can already import samples.  It would be relatively straightforward to implement some digital sample mangling in the PC/OSX software before uploading into the Nord.  Modern sound design could be done in the limitless playground of a computer and then the sound transferred into the performance keyboard, mapped to controllers, etc. 

 

A smart product manager could make the Nord Stage hardware way more than the sum of its parts simply by realizing that the Nord Stage CAN be stand-alone, but doesn't HAVE to be. That distinction opens a world of possibilities.  Why implement a super complex Yamaha Montage kind of interface in dedicated hardware on small screens?  Do it in clever, clean modern software that runs on laptop screens.  There are no HW development costs.  Anyone married to the history of electro-mechanical keyboards can ignore the functionality, but done right, conceptually, most modern digital synth textures could be implemented, autosampled, or configured for the on-board H/W to use with the copious hardware controls.  The right seamless connection between an external synth programming interface, augmented with the right digital tools (like granulation, FM, etc) would explode the usefulness, use cases, and value of the instrument for relatively low development cost (vs. hardware).  

 

People can whine about the software  - they wouldn't have to use it.  It would be pure value add.  I bet that 95% of their target market has a computer, if not 100%.  Put it to use.   Critically, the computer would NOT be needed during a performance - it's just a sound-design extension to prepare the playing surface for use.    The Non-Linear Labs C-15 works this way.  It is brilliant.  You can use any web browser to program the synth in real-time.  The hardware for that isn't in the Stage, but doesn't need to be - a laptop is fine. 

[Spider76]

12 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Where in the world did you get this? The NS3 was 5299, the NS4 is 5699. 

Euro prices.

NS3 88 3500€, NS4 88 5000€

NS3 76 3300€, NS4 73 4700€

NS3 Compact 3000€, NS4 Compact 4300€.

 

Maybe Clavia just decided that if people in the US were crazy enough to buy Nords at those prices, why not charge the same in europe too?

😂

[analogika]

1 hour ago, Spider76 said:

Euro prices.

NS3 88 3500€, NS4 88 5000€

NS3 76 3300€, NS4 73 4700€

NS3 Compact 3000€, NS4 Compact 4300€.

 

Maybe Clavia just decided that if people in the US were crazy enough to buy Nords at those prices, why not charge the same in europe too?

😂

 

The NS3 compact was 3500€ or so (street price) when it came out in 2017. 

 

Which, corrected for inflation, equates to about 4200€ in 2023. 

[Dave Keys]

My current rig is an NE5 73HP (soon to be replaced by the YC73), with the top board being a Kronos2 61. With that set up, I can do pretty well anything, so the NS4 has nothing to offer me. If however I was building a rig from scratch, and given that the Kronos is discontinued, I would probably consider an NS4, to least for the sample triggering possibilities and added synth. Even then, I'm not sure I'd go for one because of the Fatar Piano actions Nord chooses to use. I would like to think that somewhere in Sweden is a Nord Laboratory where they are developing their own Piano action for a future release.

[Paul Henry]

I do realize that I can get decent money back on my Nord NS3c investment. It's just a PIA to try and sell things and get wallets to open.

I do fault GC for trying to make a killing on items such as a perfect Stage3c, but I do understand that they are in this to make money.

My OP was kind of tongue in cheek because I would never give my stuff away to GC like that.

 

I had a buyer lined up a couple of months ago for the NS3c, but got cold feet not knowing what the new model would bring to the table.

Was disappointed that there wasn't more piano memory offered and the organ side wasn't upgraded.

In my situation the new model doesn't bring enough to warrant the upgrade. At 72 YO I won't say that money is no object, but I can put together

the funds when needed/wanted.

 

That all said I have some excellent hardware here to get the job done. As always we shall see what the future holds.

 

Paul