There's no Hands Down favorite controller is there?

[Steve Nathan]

As I consider replacing my very old CME UF80 with something newer and more capable, I see that there's a lot to choose from.  I'm glazed over from reading opinions on PianoWorld and guess I will have to figure out how to try as many of these as I can.  Kawai VP1, MP11SE, Studiologic SL88 Grand, Numa XPiano, Roland RD, Korg, Nord, on and on and on.

I don't care about internal sounds, but will pay for them if the action is superior.  I use the CME for a lot, but in reality, I want the best feel primarily for acoustic and electric piano emulations.  Don't care about weight, and I want a dual or triple pedal and release velocity.  I don't play any classical (and I do have 2 actual pianos in the house if I wanted to), but I want something that shines at responding well to touch whether I'm barely pressing the keys or banging the crap out of them.  I've read many of the older threads here, but I'm interested in current impressions.  

Thx

[octa]

PianoWorld probably recommends the MP11SE, and I have a feeling they're right. Love my VPC1's action, and MP11SE is similar in that respect, but has more responsive triple pedal along with pitch bend, aftertouch and a pretty cool assortment of internal sounds. Kind of looks like a newer version of your CME UF80..

[Mills Dude]

I downscaled everything a few years back, selling all the gig boards, leaving me with only a VPC1 and my PC primarily running PianoTeq.  At that point, I was really only interested in playing piano, rhodes and wurly.  For that purpose, the VPC1 is fine but the action certainly isn't perfect. I find it a bit heavy at times but even more than that it seems to bottom out a bit early and whatever escapement exists seems off. While I've not played and MP11, its supposed to have better action than the VPC1 which as always is highly subjective.

 

Recently, I've been looking to wade back into the synth realm. I've got Arturia's V-collection but the VPC1 is pretty underwhelming as a controller KB. Its really bare bones, no sliders, buttons or wheels. So I've been considering augmenting with a Keylab 61 or altogether dumping the VPC1 for a Keylab 88 (or something more synth friendly) and getting a P515, ES920 or perhaps higher level digital designed for home use like Kawai CA series or one of Yamaha's Clavinova or Avant Grand models. But my angle is to have a piano like experience for home with the addition of a studio KB for messing around. Probably different than your goals. 

 

MP11se seems like a good choice but its not a controller first as the primary function of the panel is to manipulate onboard sounds.  Sure its got wheels but a lot else is missing. However, the action is considered top notch for the form and price range.

 

There's definitely a frustrating gap between the cheapo controllers and the flagship workstations that are focused on internal sounds but can also act as good controllers. The market is centered on home "producers" as opposed to players.  The '90s market driven by rack mount synths gave us better pure controller choices like the CME, Midiboard, etc. I don't foresee the market changing where manufacturers start introducing better controllers.

[Motif88]

I continue to be happy with my RD-2000. 8 zones with assignable sliders & knobs. I only use the internal acoustic piano patches, everything else is software running in Logic. The Keyscape Rhodes nails it. I just added the Hydrasynth Deluxe which has brought new inspiration with poly aftertouch.

[JamPro]

Like Motif88, the Roland RD-2000 works great as a controller in my studio, using it both with internal sounds and with virtual instruments.  I think I am spoiled by it.  I like it so much I tried a few times to gig with it, but it is heavy enough to make that a chore.

[octa]

i should add, have had real good experiences with Yamaha and Roland actions too. My YC88 seems to be more responsive, in the way you were describing. But since I'm lookin' for most pianistic, the long wooden mechanisms in the Kawai win out. -- Trying 'em yerself is the only way to know for sure, action-wise.

[drawback]

I bought a Korg GrandStage a few years ago and fell in love with the RH3 action. As a stand-alone instrument, the basic sounds were almost “there” but still needed too much internal work, so I set my sights on Kronos. I now have a 73 with my favourite RH3, incredibly deep editing and sound-sculpting abilities, and enough assignable knobs, sliders, pedal inputs etc to make my version of a perfect hardware/controller.
 

I spend most of my time working with the internal sounds with one advantage to having it hooked up to VIs being that I can instantly compare, say, Canterbury Rhodes with the Suitcase Rhodes I’m building in Kronos.
 

But the action and pure playability of the RH3 after years playing on Yamahas/Rolands/Fatars (Arturia Keylab MkII, Studiologic SL88) is what sold me. Depending on what you need, start with any weighted Korg (D1, GrandStage, SV2, Nautilus, Kronos) and add your other features from there. 

[The Real MC]

I'm a lifelong piano player and I still haven't found a controller that plays/feels as good as my Kurzweil MIDIBoard.  Sadly out of production since the 1990s, and sadly no one makes any good MIDI controllers today with the depth of the MB.  My main beef with modern weighted action controllers is that the action is too stiff, you can't play certain piano techniques on them.  Owned a Yamaha P-90, owned a Korg with the RH3 action, sold both of them.  Most digital pianos are not good MIDI controllers.

[D. Gauss]

For piano, i still use the boat anchor (66 lbs!), made in the 80's, Yamaha KX88 that i found used for like 100 bucks.  It's great. (never leaves the studio so weight not issue)

For the organ stuff it's a Numa Compact 2X.

[Steve Nathan]

3 hours ago, JamPro said:

Like Motif88, the Roland RD-2000 works great as a controller in my studio, using it both with internal sounds and with virtual instruments.  I think I am spoiled by it.  I like it so much I tried a few times to gig with it, but it is heavy enough to make that a chore.

My friend Matt is also a fan of the Roland RD2000.  Can you tell me, is that their own action or a Fatar model, and does it transmit release velocity?  I couldn't find that in the specs page.  

[Tusker]

5 minutes ago, Steve Nathan said:

My friend Matt is also a fan of the Roland RD2000.  Can you tell me, is that their own action or a Fatar model, and does it transmit release velocity?

Not sure about release velocity. Somebody might clarify that. It’s a Roland PHA 50 action. I find it to be responsive but heavy.

[Steve Nathan]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

Not sure about release velocity. Somebody might clarify that. It’s a Roland PHA 50 action. I find it to be responsive but heavy.

Matt tells me they recently sent him an A-88 MKII.   He describes the action as not as heavy as the RD2000, and said he got accustomed to it quickly and it works well for him with Pianoteq.

[TommyRude]

I have 2 Nords (Stage 2 EX, Electro 6D).  The Stage 2 EX has "hammer action portable", and the Electro has "Semi-weighted waterfall".  I love the feel of the Electro.  I also only use it as a controller.  The Stage 2 EX - don't love the feel so much, it's gathering dust, should probably sell it!  The Stage 2's bed feels more to me like a heavy EP, which - for me - is not really ideal for AP.

 

I'm not sure what the keybeds are for both boards, should be easy to find out.  Both boards feel like super high quality, and should last a long time, even with some road abuse. 

 

Noting the Electro, used for AP or EP - is super responsive, from a whisper to full on rockin'.  If you're at all curious about a high quality lighter feel/touch, it might be worth auditioning one of these, if only as a comparison to other boards.

 

I don't think either of these is what you're looking for, but just a data point to add to your notes.

[stoken6]

TommyRude's Nords are an interesting bunch. The Stage 2EX has the notorious TP/100 action (full disclosure: I hate it), which Crumar selected for the Seven because it was very Rhodes-like. The Electro has a sprung TP/9O action, not a hammer action, so probably not what Steve is looking for. 

 

Of the contenders - definitely audition the Rolands, and the Kawai MP11SE mentioned above. Yamaha CP88 should be on your list as well. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Nathanael_I]

My experience is that for weighted piano oriented keys, the best keybeds are made by manufacturers who also make acoustic pianos. Yamaha and Kawai both have boards that are better than low end acoustic pianos.  Both of them reserve their best actions for home digital pianos that are not designed for gigging. But, their gigging boards are “as good as it gets” - the new triple sensor models are where it’s at.

 

I settled on a Nord Grand, which has a Kawai action. It is expressively controllable from MIDI 20s to 127. I find that it is the pianissimo control that one gets with better actions.  The player experiences more dynamic control.  The Nord has a full triple pedal. It’s a piano replacement, not a general keyboard. 
 

I don’t generally use the internal sounds. I could be very close to as happy with the current Yamaha action in the P-515, except the Nord Grand does not have aftertouch. This means the keys bottom like a real piano.  The Yamaha action bottoms like a keyboard, not a piano, and there’s a slight “padded” feel. The expressive potential is the same. It’s just a feel thing. 
 

‘The Yamaha has better piano samples in it.  The Nord has more kinds of pianos to choose from. The Nord does not have true pianissimo samples. They are mf, just less volume. Probably meaningless in many band contexts. But very noticeable if you play a lot of acoustic piano. 

[bjosko]

I would give the Numa X GT a spin. It have the new TP400 wood keys, and they got positive reviews.

The internal A Piano is nice in my ears, the electric not so much.

A bit strange pitch and modulation control, but otherwise fine built in controls for external units.

[Reezekeys]

6 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

For piano, i still use the boat anchor (66 lbs!), made in the 80's, Yamaha KX88 that i found used for like 100 bucks.  It's great. (never leaves the studio so weight not issue)

 

Ditto - but I'll admit mine isn't played much as I'm more used to non-weighted actions for piano (no, it's not for sale!).

 

I had one I bought back when they were new - mid 80s iirc. It was in pretty rough shape (the membrane switch overlay was almost in tatters). After a house fire, it went into a dumpster. A while later I was in Sam Ash and saw this:

 

 

I couldn't believe it how good it looked – like it just came out of the shipping box! Now it's in my house, never to leave. 🙂 

 

Truthfully, I find the action a little heavy and on the sluggish slide but that's probably on me, seeing as what I'm used to. Of course the midi implementation is rather arcane (or more accurately, bizarre!). I would hesitate to look back at these early controllers with rose-colored glasses but I'll bet this guy will still be sending midi after I'm done playing any keyboard!

[mcgoo]

3 hours ago, Steve Nathan said:

Matt tells me they recently sent him an A-88 MKII.   He describes the action as not as heavy as the RD2000, and said he got accustomed to it quickly and it works well for him with Pianoteq.

That's the PHA-4 action. I have the same action in my FP-30x, which I gig with. It has Enscapement and I'm very happy with the feel. It works very well with Pianoteq, which is my main piano source. 

[davinwv]

Steve,

 

I've owned a ton of weighted controllers (Studiologic Numa Nano, Numa Nero, SL88 Studio, and SL88 Grand; M-Audio Hammer 88; and Roland A-88MKII).

 

I'm currently using the SL88 Grand, but I really liked the A-88MKII. If this board never needs to leave your studio, I think the A-88MKII might be the winner in my eyes. I really liked the action on it, but its ridiculous width made it tough fitting in the spaces I have on live shows and getting a well fitting case. Also, the positioning of the physical controllers and the lack of pitch/mod wheels were tough to adjust to.

 

Thus, I settled into the SL88 Grand because of it's shorter width (it fits into a 76-key case). Its action isn't quite as quick and good with repetitions as the A-88MKII (country and honky tonk licks are a bit more challenging on the SL88 as a result).

 

I hope this helps!

[Justin Havu]

10 hours ago, The Real MC said:

I'm a lifelong piano player and I still haven't found a controller that plays/feels as good as my Kurzweil MIDIBoard.  Sadly out of production since the 1990s, and sadly no one makes any good MIDI controllers today with the depth of the MB.  My main beef with modern weighted action controllers is that the action is too stiff, you can't play certain piano techniques on them.  Owned a Yamaha P-90, owned a Korg with the RH3 action, sold both of them.  Most digital pianos are not good MIDI controllers.

 

I had a MIDIBoard for about a year back in 2006-2007.  Absolutely loved the action, however it would always freeze up on me if I played too hard, or too fast, or really big chords on it, so unfortunately I had to let it go.  The only other weighted action that would even come close to the MB is my RD-1000.  Unfortunately, it sends another MIDI message along with the note-off, that acts like a panic, and stops all notes, even with the sustain pedal.  I need to check a MIDI monitor and figure out what is up with that.

[Nicky]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:04 PM, Steve Nathan said:

As I consider replacing my very old CME UF80 with something newer and more capable, I see that there's a lot to choose from.  I'm glazed over from reading opinions on PianoWorld and guess I will have to figure out how to try as many of these as I can.  Kawai VP1, MP11SE, Studiologic SL88 Grand, Numa XPiano, Roland RD, Korg, Nord, on and on and on.

I don't care about internal sounds, but will pay for them if the action is superior.  I use the CME for a lot, but in reality, I want the best feel primarily for acoustic and electric piano emulations.  Don't care about weight, and I want a dual or triple pedal and release velocity.  I don't play any classical (and I do have 2 actual pianos in the house if I wanted to), but I want something that shines at responding well to touch whether I'm barely pressing the keys or banging the crap out of them.  I've read many of the older threads here, but I'm interested in current impressions.  

Thx

Hey Steve, Does the Casio privia PX models not work for you as a controller?

[Steve Nathan]

13 minutes ago, Nicky said:

Hey Steve, Does the Casio privia PX models not work for you as a controller?

That is what I use for sessions, but here at the house, I've kept a CME set up, which has a bit more of that "real piano" like feel. Since I've moved to Pianoteq,  I was wanting to perhaps upgrade even further to something with a "top of the line" action and "king of the hill"  piano feel. 

[bill bosco]

came accross a used Roland A37 the other day , was really tempted , always loved the semi weighted action on Roland's controllers 

[TJ Cornish]

There’s no universally-loved action because there is no universal keyboard player.

 

I played Korg RH3 actions on a couple Kronoses for a decade and found it playable generally, but too heavy for organ. I bought a Fantom last year and looked at the Fantom 8, but the action is SO HEAVY - impossible to do synth stuff on. The Fantom 7 semi-weighted action won’t make pianists happy, but I find it playable for all kinds of sounds and doesn’t shred my hand when playing organ.

 

Aftertouch usually means the action is spongy on the bottom -e.g. TP-40 as found in some Kurzweils. That’s either a good or bad thing depending on your taste.

[Analogaddict]

I use a Vivo S9 which has wooden keys and generally feels very “right”. It’s better for acoustic than for electric pianos and I prefer it to the Kawai VPC1 I used to own. I don’t think it does triple pedal though. 

[SteveNathan]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

There’s no universally-loved action because there is no universal keyboard player.

 

I played Korg RH3 actions on a couple Kronoses for a decade and found it playable generally, but too heavy for organ. I bought a Fantom last year and looked at the Fantom 8, but the action is SO HEAVY - impossible to do synth stuff on. The Fantom 7 semi-weighted action won’t make pianists happy, but I find it playable for all kinds of sounds and doesn’t shred my hand when playing organ.

 

Aftertouch usually means the action is spongy on the bottom -e.g. TP-40 as found in some Kurzweils. That’s either a good or bad thing depending on your taste.

We’ll I’m not looking for a single board for all things. I have other controllers. This would be for piano mostly & EPs. 

[TommyRude]

Thinking about this analytically, consider factoring in how much you expect to play AP vs EP.  For example, if you're expecting to play 80% AP v. 20% EP, perhaps the action should lean more towards what's better suited for AP, yes?

 

Continuing on that analysis, if having a keybed that allows playing AP with more expression is a high priority, does that necessarily detract from EP playability?  And/or vice versa?  I think it probably does. 

 

Curious - have folks found a keybed that's equally fantastic for both AP and EP?  Seems unlikely as they are different animals.  I think that's what Nord was trying for with the Stage.. attempting to find a compromise, and failing on both counts.

 

[ImproKeys]

1 hour ago, TommyRude said:

Curious - have folks found a keybed that's equally fantastic for both AP and EP?  Seems unlikely as they are different animals.  I think that's what Nord was trying for with the Stage.. attempting to find a compromise, and failing on both counts.

 

My Nord Stage 2 HA76 does this well for me. Much better than the Stage 3 or any Electro. 

[Stefan011]

52 minutes ago, ImproKeys said:

My Nord Stage 2 HA76 does this well for me. Much better than the Stage 3 or any Electro. 

Those lucky bastards with Nord Stage 2 HA 🙂 Fatar TP40 keybed does this kind of job so much better than TP100.

[Steve Nathan]

I just remembered the new Casio PX7000.  I hear nice things about their new action, & it does have the continuous pedals and release velocity I'm interested in.  Anyone have one?