Yamaha YC61 Announced

[AnotherScott]

The exception may be B3X, which has a sim at least on par with the Vent (again, imho). But I have found the B3X to be not reliable enough for live playin

I'm curious as to what unreliability you've experienced.

 

As for rotary sims in hardware, I found the Numa Organ 2 sim so good, I probably even prefer it over the Vent... though the Vent does have a nicer overdrive.

[scameron]

Thanks for your observation regarding the Numa 2' leslie sim...I feel the same way...very underated organ in my opinion.

[Adan]

The exception may be B3X, which has a sim at least on par with the Vent (again, imho). But I have found the B3X to be not reliable enough for live playin

I'm curious as to what unreliability you've experienced.

 

My software skills are not the greatest, so folks with a deeper understanding of how to set up an ios interface may have better luck. For situations other than gigs, the B3X is fine. But there are occasional crashes and inconsistencies regarding sound quality and latency. There so many more useful and fun things to be thinking about at a gig, I don't want to be distracted by concerns about that. B3X is my favorite Hammond emulation, but for me the improvement over other emulations isn't worth they extra fretting over unreliability. I recognize that I live in a world full of people with better software proficiency than me who might look at this differently.

[pawelsz]

I finally got my fingers on a YC61! Some quick impressions...

 

Action: Decidedly above average. One unexpected characteristic is that it kind of has a bit of an escapement feel, you do feel a letoff part way down. So you get the initial resistance that helps when playing pianos, but unlike, say, the Nord semi-weighteds, that initial tension actually RELEASES a bit as you press further, rather than increasing/maximixing. It nicely does not push back after you've landed. This makes it much better than the Nords for piano playing. But maybe especally because it does have that bit of extra reisitance toward the top of the travel I REALLY miss the high trigger point, since you do have to hit with a certain amout of force to overcome that initial resistance and trigger the note, which impedes some organ technique. Surprisingly, organ has a lower release point than the other sounds, I'm not sure what I think about that. (It does not behave that way over MIDI, so the release point will feel different driving an external organ sound.) Overall, I'd say it's a better action in general than the too-heavily-sprung Nord/Dexibell semi-weighted TP8O actions, the too-stiff-in-the-back low end Roland (DS61/FA06) and Korg (Kross/Krome/KingKorg) actions, the Numa Compacts... it's definitelly one of the better actions. But the Vox Continental clearly feels better to my fingers. The YC61 landing is a bit softer, which probably relates to the report of it being quieter. Whether because of that, or the trigger point, or who knows what, somehow the Vox just has the better FTEC to me.

 

(...)

 

Some approximate measurements, from stacking nickels (5 grams each) on the fronts of the keys... maybe not precise, but at least in the ballpark:

 

Nord Stage 3 = 14 nickels to initiate key movement, 23 nickels to hold the key fully down

YC61 = 8 nickels to initiate key movement, 15 nickels to hold the key fully down

 

any volunteers to provide comparable figures for Vox Continental?

 

I have felt similar "escapement" in low-end arranger keyboard Yamaha action like Yamaha PSR-S670 and found it better to my fingers than upper model like PSR-S770, quite a long time ago. I think YC61 uses totally different design than low-end Yamaha keyboards. I haven't played new PSR-SX700 nor SX900 with, as Yamaha says, improved keybed (but I see on videos that key action is deeper comparing to PSR-S series, also at the back of the keys). Your test with nickels is eye-opening, the difference should be huge. I haven't played YC61 nor Vox, but I think I like them.

[AnotherScott]

I added one more suggestion to ideascale...

 

* Allow re-ordering of Voices in the Keys Categories/Subcategories

 

This may be complicated if Live Sets currently reference their component sounds by position, but it would be great to be able to re-order the Voices within each Category and Subcategory, such that, for example, going to EP would immediately bring up (as choice #1) the EP that you use most frequently, and so you could group all the ones you typically use above the ones that you don't care for, so you don't have to scroll through sounds you never use to get to ones that you do. Similarly, implementing this within the Subcategories means that, when using the "[EXIT] + Voice selection switch" shortcut, you would immediately go to the sound in that subcategory that you are most likely to want. I understand that creating an interface to do this on the board could be a challenge, but a computer/smartphone based app to re-order these sounds could be a good way to address that, too.

[Doerfler]

new demo from brother Woody

 

[video:youtube]

[drawback]

For those of us who haven"t been able to visit a retailer, a breath of fresh air kind of review. Well done and thank you, Woody!

[AUSSIEKEYS]

Thanks Doerfler for linking Woody's video and i listened to a few others he has done. That was was informative.

 

If Woody isn't lending his voice to documentaries also he is a missing his calling.

 

Say as example in history docos I can see him doing Mark Fenton style docos or from the Americas "the history guy" style docos on any interesting history subject both who dont have a similarity in accents to each other but do have a similarity in presence. Not to mention other style docos that an accent as Woody's and he's presence in speach I think would work well for docos of many types.

 

Woody if you are linked in here... tell me you are utitising your voice for other voicing projects as well as your own keyboard reviews. (Voicing for other people's projects on non keyboard subjects).

[pawelsz]

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/yc/downloads.html#product-tabs

 

There is no "YC61, YC73, YC88" at the webpage at the moment. Not even "YC series" written as was before. Woody had received CP88 BEFORE the official launch of CP88 and CP73. Now Yamaha sent YC61 to Woody about a year after the release. Seems like they are saying us to stop that discussion and buy YC61s and they are not gonna release YC in other formats soon. Seems like Yamaha wants to cool down our enthusiasm.

[stoken6]

If Woody isn't lending his voice to documentaries also he is a missing his calling.

I said it before, and it's still true - Woody has a great manner in front of the camera, and is ideally suited to TV presenting work.

 

It's not such a bizarre leap - look at this guy.

 

Cheers, Mike

[konaboy]

thank you for sharing the video, I'm glad some of you liked it!

still waiting for the phone to ring for the tv and voiceover gigs.

i did ask the people at yamaha about a 73, but they ignored the question...'

really enjoying the board though, it's been inspiring me to work pn some brian auger and larry goldings tracks, which is a very good thing.

[brenner13]

It"s a wonderful machine. Though as mentioned many times before, I"d have one right now, had they released the first version with seventy-something keys. Yamaha missed the boat for my wants and desires.

 

I"ve since spent dough on other things and have really got my gig rig set. MODX7 covers just about everything, but the rinky-dink keybed is definitely not feeling any better. I"ve used the last few months refining Numa Compact 2X to control iOS B3-X, Ravenscroft, Neo-Soul Keys, and a plethora of other synths and am very pleased with this set up.

 

It is super convenient to have all of those high quality bread & butter sounds ready to go in one hardware board, but I really don"t have a need for the YC, now...at least not until the gigs come back.

[Marillo]

It"s a wonderful machine. Though as mentioned many times before, I"d have one right now, had they released the first version with seventy-something keys. Yamaha missed the boat for my wants and desires.

 

I"ve since spent dough on other things and have really got my gig rig set. MODX7 covers just about everything, but the rinky-dink keybed is definitely not feeling any better. I"ve used the last few months refining Numa Compact 2X to control iOS B3-X, Ravenscroft, Neo-Soul Keys, and a plethora of other synths and am very pleased with this set up.

 

It is super convenient to have all of those high quality bread & butter sounds ready to go in one hardware board, but I really don"t have a need for the YC, now...at least not until the gigs come back.

 

Totally agree on the MODX7. The best bang-for-buck synth of the last 25 years for me, but that keybed. I guess a Montage 7 could be in my future.

 

I use a Nord E6 underneath it as I much prefer Nord's Bright Grand piano to anything else i've tried in a live context (including Yamaha's CFX sample) and the organs sound nicer than this latest Yamaha release too. Generally most players will use two boards and this Nord + MODX setup is the happiest I've been with a setup in years.

[AnotherScott]

While I agree that the MODX7 action is not one that I'd start playing and say "wow, what a great feeling keyboard," neither is it one that actively irritates me. I did make some velocity adjustments to improve its piano playability quite a lot, though most of the time, I'm using it in conjunction with another board that has a more piano-suitable action anyway.

 

BTW, I've added a few more idea to Ideascale... allow MIDI zones to send the MIDI CCs from the drawbars, also have the percussion/CV buttons send MIDI CCs (instead of only sysex), and have the drawbars control synth parameters when the organ section is disabled. If you think these are worthwhile, consider heading on over there and upvoting... https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/a/ideas/recent/campaign-filter/byids/campaigns/24865/stage/unspecified

[dickiefunk]

I"m really interested in the YC61. I"ve been using the Hammond XK1 for years and it has been a good workhorse for Hammond sounds. However, it has been heavily giggled for at least 10 years and is now in a bad state and needs to be retired.

I"m interested in the YC61 because of the extra sounds it has and it would be extremely useful to have a keyboard that could be an all in one solution for certain jobs. Also the layout and workflow of the instrument looks extremely well thought out with great workflow! I"ve been listening to the audio demos and the Hammond emulation sounds better in some clips than others. If the YC61 can at least match my old XK1 I will be satisfied. In my studio I have Acoustic Samples B5 V3 and IK"s B3X which are the best Hammond emulations I"ve heard (particularly B5 V3) so for recordings I"m sorted but would like a decent workhorse live keyboard that is at least as good as my XK1 for Hammond sounds. I get a lot of compliments on how good my XK1 sounds but I have done a LOT of tweaking to it as the default settings sounded pretty poor. From listening to the Hammond demos of the YC61 the Leslie does sound quite weak but so did the XK1 before tweaking so I"m wondering how much the YC61 can be improved with some editing!?

At work we have a Mojo 61 which sounds very good and the Rhodes and Clavinet sounds are very useable. However, I would like something that has more sounds and at least 8 user preset/patch recall buttons (which the YC61 does).

 

The only real niggles I have with the YC61 is the Leslie and the Clavinet only has two pickups (though this may change with a future firmware update?)

 

I"m hoping to pick up a YC61 to try in the next few weeks to try out. If it plays well and can at least match my XK1 I think this will be a great workhorse for me! I"m also looking to change my old Roland RD300gx for the new Roland RD88 but am holding off to see if anything new is announced at NAMM!

[Al Quinn]

Great review Woody! Thank you. I have a much better understanding of the instrument now. Easy access to so much control in real-time is very appealing to me.

[konaboy]

you're welcome.

 

regarding rotary:

 

i spent the afternoon messing about tweaking the sim, but there are no parameters that make any useful difference.

you can adjust horn/rotor levels, speed and acceleration and some background noise level that adds hiss, but tweaking these will not make or break the simulation.

 

i'm missing more interesting stuff like mic placement, distance to cabinet etc.

 

the rotary sim seems to lack the drama and intensity of the nord and hammond clones when ramping up to full speed and there are no settings that will improve that.

 

also noticing some strange overtones that are introduced when enabling the rotary sim. this is very strange, as it is not coming from the organ, i switched off leakage and getting a pure sound without rotary sim. when engaging the rotary emulation, then high pitched warbly harmonics are introduced. would a leslie add such frequencies that aren't present in the hammond output? i'll try and upload a demo if anybody is interested, let me know.

[pawelsz]

...and low trigger point for organ engine.

[rogs]

 

regarding rotary:

 

i spent the afternoon messing about tweaking the sim, but there are no parameters that make any useful difference.

you can adjust horn/rotor levels, speed and acceleration and some background noise level that adds hiss, but tweaking these will not make or break the simulation.

 

i'm missing more interesting stuff like mic placement, distance to cabinet etc.

 

the rotary sim seems to lack the drama and intensity of the nord and hammond clones when ramping up to full speed and there are no settings that will improve that.

 

also noticing some strange overtones that are introduced when enabling the rotary sim. this is very strange, as it is not coming from the organ, i switched off leakage and getting a pure sound without rotary sim. when engaging the rotary emulation, then high pitched warbly harmonics are introduced. would a leslie add such frequencies that aren't present in the hammond output? i'll try and upload a demo if anybody is interested, let me know.

 

I uploaded a short demo clip a while back, which highlights some of the points you've raised. You can find it here: http://www.jp137.com/las/YC61.Raw.InternalRotary.Vent.mp3

 

... It consists of 3 similar short sequences...The 'raw' YC61 -- using the internal rotary sim --and with a Vent 2 rotary..

 

It's pretty obvious to see why I decided to go for a Vent, I think? -- the internal YC61 sim is NOT good (especially on fast) -- IMHO of course !

[counterpoint]

 

also noticing some strange overtones that are introduced when enabling the rotary sim. this is very strange, as it is not coming from the organ, i switched off leakage and getting a pure sound without rotary sim. when engaging the rotary emulation, then high pitched warbly harmonics are introduced. would a leslie add such frequencies that aren't present in the hammond output? i'll try and upload a demo if anybody is interested, let me know.

 

If you check out the Yamaha Synth Forum and IdeaScale you'll see a couple good discussions about the Leslie in general and this particular issue referred to. My unscientific observation is that the underlying organ tones are EQ'd a little differently than other clones with the upper-mid frequencies emphasized slightly more giving it, comparatively, a bit of a nasal sound...(which I actually like). In particular there seems to be a peak around 1,500 hz (F6 - G6). That frequency seems to be interacting with the Leslie sim somehow and creates the overtones and "harmonic beating" that you hear. I'm betting if they re EQ things it will help with at least that problem. You can tamp it down if you use the on-board EQ but it kills the underlying sound.

 

Beyond that, agree that they need to add a mic placement option for increased depth. I hope though they can maintain the overdrive sound...I like it much better than the Nord.

[konaboy]

aha, cool to see a dedicated forum, it's something I enjoyed and miss from the yahoo nord electro group back in the early 2000s! Anybody part of that?

 

By turning down the "TONE" control of the rotary sim, it is possible to tame those strange upper harmonics, at the cost of making the overall sound a bit mellow and muffled. It's completely workable for me.

 

As others have mentioned, the insert effect "simple rotary" sounds more realistic, it's nuch easier to hear and distinguish between positions of rotating drum and horn. That's something for other users to experiment with.

 

Rotary 2 model is quite unusable as it's highly distorted even with drive at zero.

 

Unless listening with a very discerning and critical ear, the stock leslie gets the job done, I pay less attention to it when performing. Thinking about which notes to play is a constant distraction

 

Hopefully Yamaha can improve this in firmware, some additional parameters such as stereo spread, mic distance should give folks the necessary adjustments to dial in their preferred sound. And maybe merge in some of the code from the "simple rotary" effect would help....

[AnotherScott]

I forgot about the simple rotary option, I wish I had checked that out when I had access to one. If you do upload the demo you were talking about, it would be great if you could include the simple rotary approach as well for comparison.

[rogs]

 

By turning down the "TONE" control of the rotary sim, it is possible to tame those strange upper harmonics, at the cost of making the overall sound a bit mellow and muffled. It's completely workable for me.

 

As others have mentioned, the insert effect "simple rotary" sounds more realistic, it's nuch easier to hear and distinguish between positions of rotating drum and horn. That's something for other users to experiment with.

 

Rotary 2 model is quite unusable as it's highly distorted even with drive at zero.

 

Unless listening with a very discerning and critical ear, the stock leslie gets the job done, I pay less attention to it when performing. Thinking about which notes to play is a constant distraction

 

Hopefully Yamaha can improve this in firmware, some additional parameters such as stereo spread, mic distance should give folks the necessary adjustments to dial in their preferred sound. And maybe merge in some of the code from the "simple rotary" effect would help....

 

I tried the EQ solution and didn't find that it made a significant difference - at least not while retaining a usable sound..,, 'Silk purse and sows ear' springs to mind

 

The 'simple rotary' option is just that -- the sort of 'sim' you might expect to find on an arranger keyboard.

 

Yamaha have gone to the trouble of including quite a selection of parameter changes for the much heralded YC61 'new' rotary sim .... They just don't work very well (at present)...

 

⢠The lower rotor is very weak and ill defined.

 

⢠The speed range numbers (' 0.2 to 2.00' ) don't seem to relate to anything specific? -- and on the longest low rotor setting, full speed is not reached, even after 2 MINUTES!

 

The 'warbling' harmonics are a function of the top rotor. Reduce the lower rotor level to zero and you still get the same LF 'beating' sounds from the top rotor.

 

Sorry, I get the impression that this 'sim' was released - almost a year ago now - before it was properly finished. I am surprised at the number of folk who seem to be OK with it, as it is ?

 

As you can here in the middle section of the sample I posted above ( http://www.jp137.com/las/YC61.Raw.InternalRotary.Vent.mp3 ) the fast rotary sound is very poor- especially when compared to a Vent.

 

I like to think I do have quite a discerning ear, but in the case of the the current YC61 you don't need much of one to realise the rotary sim is pretty useless, as it is.

 

I'm enjoying much about my YC61 -- but the current rotary is very disappointing... and I feel sure Yamaha know it.... The development engineers can't all have cloth ears !

[Doerfler]

aha, cool to see a dedicated forum, it's something I enjoyed and miss from the yahoo nord electro group back in the early 2000s! Anybody part of that?

 

This is OT but since you asked...

 

I migrated here from Yahoo way back when. Quite a few members I first "met" over at the Electro group that are regulars here. So many "discussions" over drawbars vs drawbuttons. I got into it quite a bit with "Hammond dave". Tonysounds was, as always, quite vocal.

Many more that I won't mention due to time constraints. Ok, back on topic. Carry on.

[AnotherScott]

aha, cool to see a dedicated forum, it's something I enjoyed and miss from the yahoo nord electro group back in the early 2000s!

Today's equivalent: https://www.norduserforum.com/

 

The speed range numbers (' 0.2 to 2.00' ) don't seem to relate to anything specific? -- and on the longest low rotor setting, full speed is not reached, even after 2 MINUTES!

They do show speed in RPM, that's a different parameter. You're talking about the acceleration/deceleration parameter. My guess is that 1.0 represents their nominal value (perhaps the times from the specific Leslie they used for reference in the lab), and the range goes from a fifth of that (.2) to double that (2.00). So whatever it is, I would expect a factor of 10 difference (in total time) between the slowest (2.0) and the fastest (0.2) settings. Does that seem right?

[rogs]

 

The speed range numbers (' 0.2 to 2.00' ) don't seem to relate to anything specific? -- and on the longest low rotor setting, full speed is not reached, even after 2 MINUTES!

They do show speed in RPM, that's a different parameter. You're talking about the acceleration/deceleration parameter. My guess is that 1.0 represents their nominal value (perhaps the times from the specific Leslie they used for reference in the lab), and the range goes from a fifth of that (.2) to double that (2.00). So whatever it is, I would expect a factor of 10 difference (in total time) between the slowest (2.0) and the fastest (0.2) settings. Does that seem right?

 

Yes of course, acceleration/deceleration parameters -- my bad - sorry!

Makes sense, a factor of 10 change -- although I've yet to hear the (weak) lower rotor get up to maximum speed at the longest setting (2.00) I got bored waiting after about 3 minutes!

 

I think things like this apparently arbitrary acceleration/ deceleration 'timing' numbering may possibly lend more credence to my notion that this 'sim' was released before completion?..

'0.2 - 2.00' - without explanation in the manual - sounds like an engineering 'work in progress' type of text reference.

They just never got round to changing the text to what it was finally intended to read?...

[konaboy]

I forgot about the simple rotary option, I wish I had checked that out when I had access to one. If you do upload the demo you were talking about, it would be great if you could include the simple rotary approach as well for comparison.

 

i think this topic might be worthy of its own video, i've also got hold of blue3 just for sake of some comparison and because it has cool animations of the rotary in action, which is helpful when explaining what to listen for...

[AnotherScott]

I had mentioned in a Vox Continental thread that its action reminded me somewhat of that of a Clavinet. On the YC61, when I chose the Wurly, I realized that the YC61's action reminds me of a Pianet!

[Fleer]

It"s a Hohner thing.

[MikeT156]

I don't know if musicians that grew up playing a B3 with a real Leslie will ever be completely happy with any kind of clone. As far as Leslies go, there is no good substitute for moving air. The benefits of an instrument like the YC61 is that it can wear a lot of hats, its not a one-trick pony. :Musicians that Gig need a versatile, dependable instrument that has a lot of different sounds and can cover all the songs that a typical live group has to play.

 

The YC61 appears to be yet another high quality Yamaha instrument that will last a long, long time. I can see by the quality build of this instrument why it costs 2 grand.

 

 

 

 

Mike T.