Yamaha YC61 Announced

[counterpoint]

 

Have you put your suggestions on Yamaha's ideascale site?

 

Yes...with a number of others. But I think IdeaScale is sort of like a "Close Door" button on an elevator...it's there more for psychological than functional reasons.

 

re: "a kill-dry so that you can run the YC unprocessed organ sound through a virtual rotary without the need for an outboard mixer/USB Audio device" -- Can you please clarify this for me?

 

Any output from the keyboard engine goes both to the internal USB audio and the main outputs. The output from the USB audio is sent to the main outputs and blended with the keyboard output. You can control the level of the USB Audio going to the main output but not the level of the keyboard engine independent of that. As a result, if you use a virtual rotary sim with the internal Steinberg USB audio, the main outputs from the YC put out an inseparable combination of the processed and unprocessed signals. Hope I explained that well enough.

[AnotherScott]

I know the YC61 can send audio out over USB to a Mac/PC... does this work on an iPad? i.e. can you send audio from the YC61 into an audio app via a USB connection out of the YC? Similarly, would it send audio into a mixer that included a USB audio interface? (In both cases, we're talking about destinations onto which you cannot install Yamaha's custom driver, so it has to be within the capabilities of what these devices can do merely within class compliance.)

[counterpoint]

Interesting...I went to the YC61 download site this AM in a search for an answer to Scott's question above about whether the USB Audio interface would work with an IPad w/o a driver...and it had a slight change... The heading listed not just the YC61 but the "YC series" including a YC73...and a YC88. Hmmm...

[Adan]

Interesting...I went to the YC61 download site this AM in a search for an answer to Scott's question above about whether the USB Audio interface would work with an IPad w/o a driver...and it had a slight change... The heading listed not just the YC61 but the "YC series" including a YC73...and a YC88. Hmmm...

 

Well-spotted! Holy Moly! I don't think it's definitive proof that those are coming, but it's a very promising sign.

 

Personally, I'm happy with the 61 version. I've never had an issue using just 5 octaves on gigs, even for piano.

 

Looking at it objectively, as has been noted many times in this thread, the YC really should be a 73 to take better advantage of it's strengths as a semi-weighted piano keyboard.

[cp-the-nerd]

Man, a YC-73 would dramatically broaden the keyboard's appeal. Very exciting if that happens.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, I can't magine someone putting that on the web site if the models weren't coming, good catch! Assuming the CP88 isn't going anywhere, it seems very possible than the 88 could have the same action as the 61, which could be appealing.

[Fuzzy1]

Oh No I don't need a new Keyboard No , Oh the Lust is rising NO!!

[pinkfloydcramer]

Seems like a YC73 would mostly be competing against the Vox Continental 73, would be very similar other than the YC's better Hammond sound. And the YC's display and audio inputs- that least feature alone would make me favor it over the VC.

 

I like the VC a lot though, tried one out for a couple of weeks.

[pawelsz]

Yeah, I can't magine someone putting that on the web site if the models weren't coming, good catch! Assuming the CP88 isn't going anywhere, it seems very possible than the 88 could have the same action as the 61, which could be appealing.

 

I was sure that YC73 or 76 was only the matter of time. But I must say I didn't expect YC88 to be ever released. I wonder if this leak was intentional or just accidental.

I think YC73 will be just a YC61 with more keys, not sure if E-E or C-C. When it comes to 88, I think they won't use the NW-GH3 keybed because CP88 exists. But maybe I'm wrong and it will be direct competitor to Nord Stage while CP88 is the competitor of Nord Piano. NWX is excellent, I am sure NW-GH3 is nearly identical, lacking only escapement.

[AnotherScott]

If the 88 has the YC61 action, it becomes a nice option for those who want the 88 span for piano and/or splits but don't necessarily care about a hammer action and the associated additional weight/expense. It's not unprecedented... Hammond SK1-88, Korg Kronos LS, Numa Compact 2/2X, or if you go back some time, Roland RS-9 was a pretty desirable board. On the lower end, you also find it on things like the Roland Go:Piano88, Korg B2N, and some other stuff. Yamaha themselves do it on the YPG-535.

 

Also, if they use a 7x span that ends in something other than the high C an organ player expects, an 88 becomes the way to get more than 61 keys and not sacrifice the top key being a C.

[niacin]

Seems like a YC73 would mostly be competing against the Vox Continental 73, would be very similar other than the YC's better Hammond sound. And the YC's display and audio inputs- that least feature alone would make me favor it over the VC.

 

I like the VC a lot though, tried one out for a couple of weeks.

 

The key actions are very different. I much prefer the Vox for piano playing.

[AnotherScott]

Seems like a YC73 would mostly be competing against the Vox Continental 73, would be very similar other than the YC's better Hammond sound. And the YC's display and audio inputs- that least feature alone would make me favor it over the VC.

 

Other YC advantages:

... better patch recall (8 button access to 160 user patches, vs. 4 button access to 64, plus, as you say, the display, so you can see the names of the patches)

... better split/layer function (e.g. you can shift the octave of your left hand part, you can split/layer a total of 3 sounds instead of 2)

... better MIDI control function (e.g. to add sounds from an iPad or whatever... it's a very configurable 4-zone controller)

... USB audio interface

... endless encoders with LED rings

... balanced outs

... better foot pedal/footswitch support

 

But the Vox has some advantages, like VA synth patches, more synth editability, high trigger on the organ, the tube, probably better non-Hammond organ sounds, probably better EP... and at least Niacin thinks it has the better action. ;-) I'd really like to get my hands on one!

 

I think another "main competitor" (at least on paper) would be the 73-key Dexibell J7 combo. It has a lot of the same advantages as the Yamaha... good display, good patch recall (but only 36 user patches), good split/layer functions. good 4-zone MIDI controller functions, USB audio interface. It has some advantages of its own... motorized drawbars, replaceable/upgradeable sounds including memory for loading your own custom soundfonts, the high trigger. In the minus column, it has no pitch bender, fewer dedicated front panel real-time controls, and an action that is probably not as good (Fatar TP/8O, similar to Nord's). Sonically, without first hand experience, I think the Yamaha probably has the edge... though I have to update an early comment of mine in this thread about the Dexibell's sound quality... although I didn't care for the stock piano and Rhodes sounds, the newer downloadable ones are quite good.

 

p.s. -- the YC61 is the only one of the three with an internal power supply.

[niacin]

Roland's VR730 is also in that ballpark.

 

The YC also has pitch and mod wheels where the Vox just has a pitch lever.

 

But the YC reminds me most of the more expensive Nord Stage Compact, both great all-rounders, drawbars, proper MIDI and split functions, etc. While the Vox is a bit of a unicorn and no doubt has narrower appeal, but unlike any of the competition it's the only one that's garnered comments from folks here suggesting that it plays more like a musical instrument and less like a digital compromise.

[AnotherScott]

Roland's VR730 is also in that ballpark.

Yeah, that's another, though I think it lags. Roland advantages would seem to be VA synth (including full editing via iPad), high trigger, lower price.

 

YC61 advantages over VR09B seem to be:

* split/layer 3 sounds instead of 2

* each split/layered sound can have its own effects

* effects controls are endless encoders with LED rings so they indicate (and are editable from) their current setting

* more effects control (ie. separate rate and depth knobs)

* 4 fully featured MIDI zones instead of 1 limited function MIDI zone

* 160 user programs all selectable from buttons and via MIDI, vs. 100 user programs with only 16 selectable from buttons and not at all via MIDI

* internal power supply

* built-in USB audio interface

* LED strips to indicate drawbar positions (and the drawbars themselves are full-sized)

* ability to have the sound instantly reflect the current drawbar positions

* drawbars send MIDI CC

* supports 2 foot switches and 2 foot controllers (instead of 1 of each), with more programmability

* separate Vox and Farfisa emulations (Roland has a single "transistor" organ emulation)

* balanced outs

* probably a better action

 

...though the CTRLR editor adds more sounds and more split/layer functionality to the VR.

 

The YC also has pitch and mod wheels where the Vox just has a pitch lever.

True, though LED strip #6 can be similarly used for pitch LFO.

[nadroj]

I looked on the downloads section and could only see "YC series" - no reference to 73 or 88?

 

Anyways, the biggest appeal to me with this vs similar boards is the USB Audio interface. My Electro 4 feels like it's coming to the end of it's life cycle, as it's starting to play up a little bit. The Stage 3 is the obvious upgrade/replacement, but this and the VOX have caught my eye, as I said in another thread.

 

If they were to make a YC73 it would be a serious contender. I know I said in another thread that i don't really gel with the Yamaha sounds. To my ears the factory EPs and organs (especially the rotary) are just a bit lacklustre and sound overly processed compared to other similar boards - that's my main complaint with the Yamaha electro mechanical sounds on the MODX - they just don't sound good to me (and the MODX doesn't feel like an "instrument" either, which is a petty but important thing for me). However, I'm using mainstage more and more these days. The ability to mix mainstage wtih the internal sounds and send it all to FOH in the same feed with just a USB cable connecting the two is huge. Jam gigs and bar gigs, throw this in a keyboard bag and I'd have a lightweight rig already more flexible than my Electro. For bigger gigs, or gigs where I need a bit more, just throw my laptop and USB cable in and boom - every sound I'd want, with hardly any additional schlep. Hugely tempting. If this thing had a high trigger point over MIDI it would be a no brainer.

 

Saying all that, there are a couple of guys on YouTube who have really tweaked the sounds on this thing and have come up with lovely results. I saw one guy mix two EPs together, and the result was lovely. Need to get my hands on one to see.

[niacin]

I didn't care for the YC EPs or clavs until i played with the amp sims, they make a huge difference.

[counterpoint]

I looked on the downloads section and could only see "YC series" - no reference to 73 or 88?

 

The site was down for a couple hours yesterday and when it came back up the reference to the additional models had been removed. They also removed a post I made on the Yamaha Synth forum asking about it.

[AnotherScott]

the reference to the additional models had been removed. They also removed a post I made on the Yamaha Synth forum asking about it.

Yup, I saw all that, and I wondered if maybe that removed post was yours. ;-)

[nadroj]

I looked on the downloads section and could only see "YC series" - no reference to 73 or 88?

 

The site was down for a couple hours yesterday and when it came back up the reference to the additional models had been removed. They also removed a post I made on the Yamaha Synth forum asking about it.

 

The plot thickens!

[nadroj]

Dunno why Yamammyha haven't plugged this video more, 3 months old and only 77 views, though it is unlisted. Nick is one kool cat, and I know that some of the sound banks he did for Nord, etc, are one of the many reasons certain folks gravitate to those boards. Marketing dept need to capitalise on stuff like this. Found it hidden away in a back room of the Yammy website!

[video:youtube]

[zxcvbnm098]

Damn, the first one - the Wurly - sounds amazing....

[EscapeRocks]

Yes!!

 

Soundmondo is your friend for finding really cool sounds for the YC. I stumbled upon Nick's stuff there. Demo master Katsunori UJIEE has some great organ edits up there as well.

 

The YC61 can get very deep with editing. You just have to learn the peculiarities, such as the way the EG filter works in the Synth section section. I like the way effects have their own section with the on/off switch. That way you don't have to have the Organ section on to use effects like rotary, etc on non organ sounds.

[MikeT156]

Daniel Fisher at Sweetwater has an incredible demo of the YC61 on their website. This KB can do just about anything you would need if you're a KB player that needs a lot of sounds, an authentic organ sound with drawbars. The additional sounds that come with that KB is way beyond anything I have ever heard in a portable organ.

 

The other consideration is that it is Yamaha quality, Every piece of Yamaha equipment that I ever bought still works. That's going back the seventies. If I needed a seconding KB in addition to my MOTIF ES8 workstation, this would be it.

[AnotherScott]

Something else I thought was interesting about the YC is that there is a direct button just to get to the velocity curve setting. I'm not saying it will necessarily do quite what the Vox's Dynamics knob does, but similarly, it provides a quick way to make an on-the-fly adjustment, e.g. when you want to play piano with some quiet expressivity in a solo intro, but then switch to a more appropriate less subtle touch for when the full band comes in. Considering the inherent compromise in playing piano from a non hammer action, this at least becomes a way to tailor that compromise on the fly based on musical context.

[AnotherScott]

I finally got my fingers on a YC61! Some quick impressions...

 

Action: Decidedly above average. One unexpected characteristic is that it kind of has a bit of an escapement feel, you do feel a letoff part way down. So you get the initial resistance that helps when playing pianos, but unlike, say, the Nord semi-weighteds, that initial tension actually RELEASES a bit as you press further, rather than increasing/maximixing. It nicely does not push back after you've landed. This makes it much better than the Nords for piano playing. But maybe especally because it does have that bit of extra reisitance toward the top of the travel I REALLY miss the high trigger point, since you do have to hit with a certain amout of force to overcome that initial resistance and trigger the note, which impedes some organ technique. Surprisingly, organ has a lower release point than the other sounds, I'm not sure what I think about that. (It does not behave that way over MIDI, so the release point will feel different driving an external organ sound.) Overall, I'd say it's a better action in general than the too-heavily-sprung Nord/Dexibell semi-weighted TP8O actions, the too-stiff-in-the-back low end Roland (DS61/FA06) and Korg (Kross/Krome/KingKorg) actions, the Numa Compacts... it's definitelly one of the better actions. But the Vox Continental clearly feels better to my fingers. The YC61 landing is a bit softer, which probably relates to the report of it being quieter. Whether because of that, or the trigger point, or who knows what, somehow the Vox just has the better FTEC to me.

 

Organ: I like the organ sound, but yeah, as people have said, the Leslie effect is really weak. Very little depth to it, especially on the low rotor. I think chorale is too fast even at the slowest setting, and tremolo is weird, fast and "squirrely," as bad as (or maybe even worse than) the original Dexibell model. As I've discussed elsewhere, there's no great way to fix it with a Vent, since the lack of split mono routing (or aux out) means you can't put a Vent on just the organ sound, which gets in the way of splits/layers, and/or means switching it in and out as you change sounds.

 

Interface/ergonomics: A lot of really smart decisions. Could use a few improvements, which I'll get back to at some point, but overall it's a nice board to operate. Split manipulation is good (easy access to adjust the volumes and octaves of your sounds), but on the fly split sound selection isn't so great, since it tends to involve a bunch of scrolling. Build quality feels great.

 

On paper, this is a much stronger board than the Vox, especially with its multi-zone MIDI control, its 8 patch select buttons (vs. 4), it's FAR superior split/layer capabilities, the display that gives you the names of all your patches, effects, etc. so you're not "flying blind" or working from memorization/cheat sheets, far more extensive effects, and a full set of organ controls (e.g. percussion and CV). But I have to admit that, in the playing, the Vox did a better job at putting a smile on my face. So if my needs were sufficiently minimal--i.e. if I were going to be playing just one sound at a time (negating the split/layer differences), and didn't intend to use very many sounds (mitigating the lack of display that lets you know where you are), and didn't care about MIDI zoning for integrating external sounds--I think I'd choose the Vox. But if you need those other things, the Vox simply doesn't give them to you, and the YC61 is still a really nice board. If you're VERY organ-centric, neither will completely satisfy. Yamaha has better sound but worse Leslie effect. Yamaha gives you all the organ controls you want that are missing from the Vox, but you lose the high trigger. So each is compromised as an organ, just in different ways.

 

Some approximate measurements, from stacking nickels (5 grams each) on the fronts of the keys... maybe not precise, but at least in the ballpark:

 

Nord Stage 3 = 14 nickels to initiate key movement, 23 nickels to hold the key fully down

YC61 = 8 nickels to initiate key movement, 15 nickels to hold the key fully down

 

any volunteers to provide comparable figures for Vox Continental?

[Al Quinn]

Thanks Scott for the great review! I likely have a YC61 in my future. It sounds like by adding the HX3 Expander Module, which I already have, it would be a great rig for my needs.

[VanZea]

[video:youtube]

 

Impressive...

[AnotherScott]

Here are suggestions I posted on Ideascale. If any YC owners here think these would be good ideas, maybe head on over there and up-vote them, if you're so inclined...

 

* Change holding Page +/- buttons to Bank select instead of scroll

 

Currently, if you HOLD the Page + or - button, it auto-scrolls through banks, but it's hard to quickly/accurately change banks with an auto-scroll. Instead, I'd suggest that holding the first Page button (-, the one on the left) while pressing any of the buttons 1-8 would take you immediately to your choice of banks 1-8, while holding the second Page button (+, the one on the right) while pressing any of the buttons 1-8 would take you immediately to your choice of banks 9-16. At that point the user could quickly and accurately get to any of the first 128 sounds with just two buttons! For example, holding left page button while tapping 7 followed by tapping 5 would take you to the 5th sound of the 7th bank, which would be a fast and accurate way to get there from any other location. You could still tap the +/- buttons for times you may want to navigate a bank at a time (for example, to view the contents of the banks as you move through them, or to manually scroll to banks 17 through 20 which would not be available via the shortcuts). I could see possibly preferring the "hold to scroll through banks" when on the Live Set view, though even then, someone might prefer to go directly to a different Live Set page, so perhaps that behavior could ba a user option.

 

* Add Voice navigation screen that works like Live Set navigation

 

When trying to locate a Voice on the fly, perhaps pressing the Enter button (which currently does nothing when you're simply playing) could bring up the sound list for whatever Keys A or Keys B part and category is currently active, and then you could navigate through that category's sounds the same way you navigate the Live Sets. Display of Live Sets works very nicely to aid you in locating the Live Set you are looking for. I wish navigating the individual Voices worked as well! (It is helpful that double-tapping the up-down button brings up a scrollable list, but it's not the same, because navigating through that list actually changes the sound as you go, and also the list disappears quickly, and it also comes up with the sound that is two sounds away from where you were, which is understandable but still a bit disorienting!)

 

* Cycle through TOUCH settings with the +/- buttons

 

It's great that the Touch button is so conveniently located so you can alter piano responsiveness on the fly, even mid-song, but using the knob to then MAKE the adjustment is awkward. If the selection could be changed with the + and - buttons (Page, buttons which do nothing anyway when Touch has been activated), then the user could make this change more quickly/reliably, e.g. if you were transitioning from a subtle solo piano introduction to a song into the full band rocking section, whose dynamic demands are different.

 

* Future rev: 360 degree Voice Category selector w/more categories

 

Obviously, the hardware is what it is, but if/when there is a future redesign, I think the Voice Category selector (for Keys A/Keys B) should permt endless (360 degree) rotation, with additional categories beyond the current 4. This solves two problems: (1) Currently, it can be disorienting to have to (for example) rotate the knob UP from piano to elec piano if the knob happens to be on synth/other... if it were a 360 degree control, you would always be able to move it in the direction you expect to move it, to get from where it is to where you want it to be; and (2) by splitting sounds into more categories, the user would be able to get to more different sounds more quickly, without having to scroll through as many non-relevant sounds when looking for sounds of a certain type. The sound category knobs on the Korg SV1/SV2 would be an example of a board with controls that work as I've described.

 

* 4 suggested improvements for Clav sounds

 

Clav release samples would be a welcomed addition if possible.

 

I'd like to have available selections for all four Clav pickup positions available (AC, AD, BD, BD), and possibly have the clav's specific different EQs available as well, whether as additional selectable Voices, or as an effect that could be selected.

 

It would be nice if the mod lever could function as the mute bar for clav sounds.

 

I noticed that the organ release is lower than on other sounds. Clav can benefit from that, I've played clavs on other boards where they feel "snappier" with the low release point (Nord, for example).

 

ETA: I have two others up there...

 

* add High Trigger option for organ (an obvious one!)

 

* Add a "Narrow" Touch curve option

[nadroj]

[video:youtube]

 

Impressive...

 

Daaaaamn...

 

I really hope they improve the rotary and release a 73 key version. This thing can sound sweet on it's own.

[Adan]

I recently got a Vent II. After many years of standing on the sidelines, I now fully understand what all the cheering is about. The Vent is amazing. Very happy with the YC+Vent because, other than the leslie sim, the YC Hammond emulation really pleases me.

 

One may ask why should you have to spend another $500 on top of purchasing an expensive keyboard that boasts a clone engine? I think the answer is because the Vent is good enough to justify it. The delta of difference will vary among clones -- meaning the Vent is more of an improvement over some internal leslie sims than others -- but imho it's an improvement over every other sim. Starting with the bad leslie sim on the YC just gives me more for my Vent money, ha!

 

The exception may be B3X, which has a sim at least on par with the Vent (again, imho). But I have found the B3X to be not reliable enough for live playin

I don't have experience with the HX3 expander, so can't comment on that comparison. It sounds great on YouTube, for sure. If you were using an HX3 with the YC, it might be silly to add a Vent into the chain.

 

Other than how it sounds, I also like the Vent because it lets you trigger fast speed in momentary mode, which is how I like to roll. I know Nord and the Mojo allow that, but afaik those are the only others that do (B3X does it too). For me, that alone is worth adding a Vent to the YC.

 

Scott will point out that with the YC, you can't split outputs and route only organ through the Vent. True Dat. For me personally, any gig where the quality of the leslie sim matter enough to add the Vent is also a gig where I'd want the YC dedicated to organ. By contrast, any situation where I'm splitting the YC is probably one where the internal sim is good enough. ymmv.

 

There is still the YC's lack of high trigger, which is something you definitely notice. I believe that's something you adjust to. There may be some bounce and skate techniques that won't work quite as well on the YC, but the lack of high trigger shouldn't stop you from making great music.