Kurzweil PC4

[Dave Osoff]

Hmmm.  I see that Sweetwater still has some 76 key Forte’s also. 73 or 76 keys is my sweet spot. I’m thinking it’s probably down to the PC4-7 vs the Forte 7.  I’m weighing the pros and cons of each. This will be more or less replacing the Korg Kronos 2-73 for live and studio use  so the the Forte is the same price range as the Kronos 2 -73 but PC4 obviously has a lot going for it, less than 1/2 the weight and cost and great master controller functions.  Anybody who’s owned both of them, what are your thoughts? Outside of the obvious semi weighted versus weighted actions. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

3 minutes ago, Dave Osoff said:

Hmmm.  I see that Sweetwater still has some 76 key Forte’s also. 73 or 76 keys is my sweet spot. I’m thinking it’s probably down to the PC4-7 vs the Forte 7.  I’m weighing the pros and cons of each. This will be more or less replacing the Korg Kronos 2-73 for live and studio use  so the the Forte is the same price range as the Kronos 2 -73 but PC4 obviously has a lot going for it, less than 1/2 the weight and cost and great master controller functions.  Anybody who’s owned both of them, what are your thoughts? Outside of the obvious semi weighted versus weighted actions. 

My main comments are that the Forte 7 will have much superior piano sounds (the sample compression/stretching on the PC4's pianos is one of the things I struggle with sometimes) and is going to be built a lot better (with a better action than the PC4 88). I wish I had bought a Forte 88 instead of my PC4-88 back a few years ago, but the Forte had just been discontinued and was over $5000 by that point, so it was way out of budget. The main thing you will lose is the knobs over the faders and some of the user interface for the sequencer. If you can afford either I would go with the Forte 7 hands down.

[Dave Osoff]

Thanks for your feedback. I think I’m sold at this point on getting the Forte 7. From what I’m reading it looks as though my Yamaha FC7 pedals will not work with Kurzweil. What do you use? The Kurzweil CC1 is listed as one.  Looking for something with a nice long throw similar to the FC7.   

[Mighty Motif Max]

2 hours ago, Dave Osoff said:

Thanks for your feedback. I think I’m sold at this point on getting the Forte 7. From what I’m reading it looks as though my Yamaha FC7 pedals will not work with Kurzweil. What do you use? The Kurzweil CC1 is listed as one.  Looking for something with a nice long throw similar to the FC7.   

 

I gave up looking for a long-throw pedal because the Roland EV-7 was discontinued - I'm also a long-time FC-7 user and yes, you're correct that that pedal doesn't play nicely with Kurzweils. I now use a Moog EP-3 pedal, which is shorter but it has a longer throw and has a firmer resistance than many of the other expression pedals on the market. I've actually gotten used enough to it that I use that model with all my other keyboards other than Yamahas.

[Dave Osoff]

Cool.  I've heard good things about the Moog pedal.  Actually I may have found another solution.  I have an old Ashby Solutions FC7X-II adapter which was made to make the FC7 compatible with Roland, Kurzweil, older Nords, etc...  It's probably 10 years old but it looks to be in great shape.  So I'll try it before buying anything else.

[Coker]

14 minutes ago, Dave Osoff said:

Cool.  I've heard good things about the Moog pedal.  Actually I may have found another solution.  I have an old Ashby Solutions FC7X-II adapter which was made to make the FC7 compatible with Roland, Kurzweil, older Nords, etc...  It's probably 10 years old but it looks to be in great shape.  So I'll try it before buying anything else.

I tried one of those adapters with an FC-7 and Kurzweil board. It worked, although the effect was quite nonlinear. 

[Jim Alfredson]

4 hours ago, Dave Osoff said:

Thanks for your feedback. I think I’m sold at this point on getting the Forte 7. From what I’m reading it looks as though my Yamaha FC7 pedals will not work with Kurzweil. What do you use? The Kurzweil CC1 is listed as one.  Looking for something with a nice long throw similar to the FC7.   

Best expression pedals for Kurzweils is either the Hammond EXP50 or the Boss FV-500L. Both work great and are tanks. WAY better than the cheapo FC7.

[Delaware Dave]

59 minutes ago, Dave Osoff said:

Cool.  I've heard good things about the Moog pedal.  Actually I may have found another solution.  I have an old Ashby Solutions FC7X-II adapter which was made to make the FC7 compatible with Roland, Kurzweil, older Nords, etc...  It's probably 10 years old but it looks to be in great shape.  So I'll try it before buying anything else.

i used an ashby adapter with the FC7 with my PC3 and got a linear response from the FC7.  I currently use a Roland EV7 which also has a long throw like the FC7.  I would recommend an EV7 if you can find a used one, they are built like a tank, but are discontinued.  

 

I am in the EXACT place you are, a Forte7 (which i would prefer to have) or the PC4-7. I would not spend the gingle on a new Forte as it is a discontinued product, so I am constantly perusing the used market for one.  The one thing i dont like about the Forte7 is that the keybed is the TP40-L rather than a semi-weighted like the old TP8 on the PC3.  I play alot of organ and the TP40L makes it less fun to play organ on.

[AnotherScott]

On 9/28/2023 at 1:28 PM, Delaware Dave said:

Disagree with you on this issue; the software needs to be adjusted to accommodate the differing keybed used.  Now that being said even making a software adjustment might not be enough to accommodate a 'perfect' adjustment but there should be an improvement by making a software adjustment.

Supporting your point here... Roland just introduced a software update to improve aftertouch performance on the Fantom, and from what I've seen, people seem to be happy with it. Unless it was strictly a software problem to begin with, it supports the idea of being able to use software alone to make a very substantial improvement to what might otherwise seem to be fundamentally a hardware issue.

[AnotherScott]

Just updating my previous post. Reactions to the Fantom aftertouch update now seems more mixed. Still, a lot of people seem to be finding a satisfying amount of improvement, even if not everyone is.

[SMcD]

Another question about stereo/mono:

 

What exactly is happening under the hood when you use a stereo keymap with Stereo set to OFF in the corresponding layer(s)? I am specifically thinking of Program 28 (Mono Piano), which has become my go-to piano patch. It uses the German 9 ft. samples (which I believe are natively stereo), but with the Stereo parameter set to OFF for each layer. As an experiment, for each layer I turned Stereo ON and duplicated the corresponding keymap in the right channel (which, according to the manual, is what you're supposed to do for keymaps with stereo samples), and I noticed

 

1. With a single output from the left channel (i.e. summed to mono), this sounds exactly the same as the original Mono Piano.
2. It sounds different upon plugging a dummy cable into the right channel (i.e. half a stereo output is noticeably different from the summed mono output).

 

This suggests that using stereo keymaps with Stereo turned OFF just sums the samples to mono under the hood. If so, why is the "Mono" Piano program named as such? If you're only take the left (summed) output from the PC4, it's no more "mono" than any of the other pianos. Is it just a matter of the voices being halved (one keymap per layer instead of 2) and the EQ on the program being tweaked to compensate for phase cancellation?

 

 

Bonus question: what does "ACL" stand for on the "ACL Reed EP" program? Usually it's pretty obviously a song or band associated with the sound but this one's stumped me.

[Dave Weiser]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:07 PM, Mighty Motif Max said:

My main comments are that the Forte 7 will have much superior piano sounds (the sample compression/stretching on the PC4's pianos is one of the things I struggle with sometimes) and is going to be built a lot better (with a better action than the PC4 88). I wish I had bought a Forte 88 instead of my PC4-88 back a few years ago, but the Forte had just been discontinued and was over $5000 by that point, so it was way out of budget. The main thing you will lose is the knobs over the faders and some of the user interface for the sequencer. If you can afford either I would go with the Forte 7 hands down.

Shoot me an email and I'll send you my PC4 sound set. It includes some pianos that you might find useful. weiserdav@gmail.com

 

[Dave Weiser]

On 10/16/2023 at 11:40 AM, SMcD said:

Another question about stereo/mono:

 

What exactly is happening under the hood when you use a stereo keymap with Stereo set to OFF in the corresponding layer(s)? I am specifically thinking of Program 28 (Mono Piano), which has become my go-to piano patch. It uses the German 9 ft. samples (which I believe are natively stereo), but with the Stereo parameter set to OFF for each layer. As an experiment, for each layer I turned Stereo ON and duplicated the corresponding keymap in the right channel (which, according to the manual, is what you're supposed to do for keymaps with stereo samples), and I noticed

 

1. With a single output from the left channel (i.e. summed to mono), this sounds exactly the same as the original Mono Piano.
2. It sounds different upon plugging a dummy cable into the right channel (i.e. half a stereo output is noticeably different from the summed mono output).

 

This suggests that using stereo keymaps with Stereo turned OFF just sums the samples to mono under the hood. If so, why is the "Mono" Piano program named as such? If you're only take the left (summed) output from the PC4, it's no more "mono" than any of the other pianos. Is it just a matter of the voices being halved (one keymap per layer instead of 2) and the EQ on the program being tweaked to compensate for phase cancellation?

 

 

Bonus question: what does "ACL" stand for on the "ACL Reed EP" program? Usually it's pretty obviously a song or band associated with the sound but this one's stumped me.

In my experience, if you have a non-stereo program with a stereo keymap, you're just getting one of the two "sides" of the stereo keymap (left by default, I think). On previous models, you would have to select L or R version of the keymap, which to me makes things more simple. I believe the PC4 uses a "smart" system that knows what to do with both sides of a stereo keymap. Regardless of L/R label or not, if you set the program to mono, you're just getting the left side of the sample. I'm pretty sure it's not summing two keymaps under the hood.

 

The mono program uses half the polyphony of a stereo program. Also, if your rig is stereo, a mono piano can be useful if you don't want the stereo panning, with higher notes on the right side and lower notes on the left. A mono piano will been even across the keyboard. That's the main reason why I would use a mono piano while gigging. I don't need stereo piano panning when I'm on a rock gig... or really any live gig.

 

Regarding the ACL Reed EP... I have no idea. Side note:  I hate the "Reed" and "Tine" names that they swapped in, in place of "Wurly" and "Rhodes". A while back, some idiot was suing companies over the use of "Rhodes" in preset names. Kurz management got spooked, and had their soundware people rename all the EP presets in their current boards. 

 

 

[SMcD]

Thanks Dave. So if that's the case, the "Mono Piano" patch is presumably only the left side of the 9ft German samples? Strange, but hey - it seems to work well on gigs.

 

I'd heard that about Rhodes (which is why you see it named so generically in so many boards, of course), but as far as I knew nobody was that litigious about the Wurlitzer name (hence why every keyboard, including previous Kurzweils, calls it by its real name). I can't imagine there would've been any trouble with the old "Rhds" convention from the PC3 line, though.

[Mighty Motif Max]

2 hours ago, Dave Weiser said:

Shoot me an email and I'll send you my PC4 sound set. It includes some pianos that you might find useful. weiserdav@gmail.com

 

Hey Dave, I believe I already have your soundset, unless you have made some updates since Spring 2021 when I purchased my PC4 through you! I found those pianos were a bit of an improvement for live band work, but didn't really do what I was looking for for my needs. Totally personal preference!

[Dave Weiser]

40 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Hey Dave, I believe I already have your soundset, unless you have made some updates since Spring 2021 when I purchased my PC4 through you! I found those pianos were a bit of an improvement for live band work, but didn't really do what I was looking for for my needs. Totally personal preference!

D'oh right! My goldfish brain was confusing your handle with someone else.

[felis]

I just traded in my PC4 for a second PC4-7.  I got the PC4 four years ago when it first came out, and really liked it a lot.

I would have preferred 76 or 61 keys, but the PC4 was all there was then.

Then I got a PC4-7 at the beginning of this year and just fell in love with it.

Waited for the right time and sprung for a second PC4-7 two weeks ago.

 

I'm not a pianist - no formal training/lessons, just a self taught hack hobbyist.

I learned on synth and semi-weighted actions and that's where I'm most at home.

Also, the fact that I had a 76 key K2600 for about 15 years probably played into it.

Just as much into synthesis as I am into playing, and the majority of boards I've had

have been semi rather than fully weighted.

 

Have pared down from a room stuffed full of gear to what seems very minimal now.

A couple keyboards, a couple modules, and a ridiculous amount of software.

I'm old enough that these might be the last keyboards in my long run.

No point to this post - just rambling coming from a different perspective than the gigging keyboardist.

 

[Fleer]

Some sweet rambling @felis

Myself, I tend to go both ways. I like smallish lightweight keyboards to play with on the couch, but also large motherload machines, as they feel more meaty and less flimsy. My PC4 is in the second group. It’s like playing a MODX6 or MODX7 after owning a MODX8. The latter felt much more substantial. 

[Werno]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:31 PM, Dave Weiser said:

Regarding the ACL Reed EP... I have no idea.

Not sure where I got this idea, maybe a PC3 program, but I think it stands for 'Austin City Limits'- is there a Wurli in their backline that's somehow iconic? Or not.

[Dave Weiser]

4 hours ago, Werno said:

Not sure where I got this idea, maybe a PC3 program, but I think it stands for 'Austin City Limits'- is there a Wurli in their backline that's somehow iconic? Or not.

D'oh! That's probably what it stands for, since I believe it's one of my presets! Back when I worked for Kurz, I created the Austin City Limits Wurly for PC3. Looks like the Kurz guys renamed it after I left the company. They went through a whole renaming phase after some wanker started suing keyboard companies for using "Rhodes" in preset names. They went through the entire sound library for current boards and removed almost all proper names. (For the record I am strongly against this policy, but I do understand why they got spooked.)

 

For the Wurly sound, I didn't have any specific examples in mind. It just seemed like the kind of Wurly sound that you'd hear in an ACL show - sort of bright and mostly clean.

[SMcD]

Two things, now that I've had the PC4 for a few months.

 

1. It's been said a million times and it'll be said a million more, but shoutout to @Dave Weiser. His custom sounds constitute a major upgrade to what was already a fantastic board, and the customer service he provides is top-notch. He's recently adjusted some of his old Forte programs for better PC4 compatibility, which improves the experience even more.
2. The reduced weight of the PC4, compared to its predecessor, is both a blessing and a curse. I find that if I really give'er when I'm playing I can cause it to slide around quite a bit on the stand, whereas my old PC3LE8 stayed put from the force of its own gravity. There are some rubber stoppers on the bottom of the board for friction, but they're spaced too far apart to make contact with my stand (Quiklok Z-71, the pads on which don't seem to provide enough friction). Anyone have any tips to stabilize this thing?

[Tom Williams]

1 hour ago, SMcD said:

The reduced weight of the PC4, compared to its predecessor, is both a blessing and a curse. I find that if I really give'er when I'm playing I can cause it to slide around quite a bit on the stand[...] Anyone have any tips to stabilize this thing?

I've had pretty good luck with non-slip silicone shelf liner wrapped around the bars on which the keyboard sits.  I use zip-ties to sort of sew the bottom together. 

It's available in black.

[ewall08530]

I don’t have a PC 4 but I’ve had good luck in the past keeping a Casio PX S-3000 from sliding/moving with small female Velcro strips attached to the stand.  

[D. Gauss]

I use bungie cords. seriously.

[Delaware Dave]

4 hours ago, ewall08530 said:

I don’t have a PC 4 but I’ve had good luck in the past keeping a Casio PX S-3000 from sliding/moving with small female Velcro strips attached to the stand.  

 

This...

[CEB]

On 10/11/2023 at 6:06 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

Best expression pedals for Kurzweils is either the Hammond EXP50 or the Boss FV-500L. Both work great and are tanks. WAY better than the cheapo FC7.

Thanks Jim. I need an Expression pedal.  I guess I’m going to take a gig  starting in February and am going to use my PC-4-88.   I do not have an expression pedal.   I’ve only used it as a stage piano.  
 

I’ll probably have some VAST questions in the future.  

[jarrell]

FWIW I've been using the M-Audio EX-P Universal Expression Pedal - lightweight plastic, but served me fine for the last couple of years.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I use a Moog EP-3 pedal and it works great. No complaints, and it's well-built.

[Synthaholic]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:06 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

Best expression pedals for Kurzweils is either the Hammond EXP50 or the Boss FV-500L. Both work great and are tanks. WAY better than the cheapo FC7.

Wow, that Hammond pedal is nearly $100 cheaper at Jeff Bezos' store than at the Sweet place.

[CEB]

I took a keyboard gig.  Rehearsals start in February.   Primarily a honky tonk piano gig.  I told they won't play a lot and half the players are good friends who are great players so ...

 

I haven't been using the PC4 out.  I like the pianos well enough.  They are expressive but If I'm tired or in poor form the action gets very sluggish.   I normally run hard velocity curves.  Great for playing Jazz stuff at home but not good for shredding Honky Tonk licks.  I've set the velocity curve to their lightest setting and the thing will now rip ... but the pianos lose some of their dynamic expressiveness but for Skynrd or Travis Tritt this will work and its less than 30 pounds which is why I bought the damn thing a year ago.