Kurzweil PC4

[Jazzmammal]

Here's much better demo that includes the KB3 from our good friend Jim Alfredson. The organ starts at 2:50:

 

 

As a long time owner of a PC3, I still hear the same basic drawbar tone which is OK but not really authentic but I think the Leslie sim may be slightly better but still not close to the SK1 or Mojo that I have. I think Jim thinks that too or else he would have done more with it in this vid. I gigged with a PC1x for years using the KB3 and then the PC3. I made it work, band members thought it sounded like a real B3 but I sure didn't. Decent but no cigar but of course it depends on the players priorities. I'm a B3 first type. What I don't get is Kurz is famous for using some of the best samples ever created, yet the Hammond samples are close but not right. The docs have said for years those are real Hammond samples but they do not sound like it. The tone is not right in this vid and never has been going back to the K2000. Why that is I have no idea. They should easily be able to equal the best clones out there. And what's so frustrating is all these other sounds, the architecture, the live control you have on a gig are simply stellar but the organ just doesn't cut it for me. Sad, very sad. And the older I get the less I'm inclined to double rack even though I have everything I need (way more than I need) for that. Oh, well....

 

Bob

[Tom Williams]

where did you get a left-handed PC4?

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3117798/ot-youtube-inverted-videos#Post3117798

Yeah, I know, but it was fun to ask.

As far as selfie-generated L/R inversion, it's one of the stupidest things on the planet. I get mirroring for the user's monitor (less disconcerting), but keeping it inverted for transmission/uploading? Idiocy.

[stoken6]

I get mirroring for the user's monitor (less disconcerting), but keeping it inverted for transmission/uploading? Idiocy.

This. Most of the platforms I've used offer the option to mirror "local" video (i.e mirror the image for the person looking into the camera) but never to mirror the "broadcast"/recorded/photographed feed.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[AnotherScott]

What I don't get is Kurz is famous for using some of the best samples ever created, yet the Hammond samples are close but not right. The docs have said for years those are real Hammond samples but they do not sound like it. The tone is not right in this vid and never has been going back to the K2000. Why that is I have no idea. They should easily be able to equal the best clones out there.

There are multiple issues here. First, unless this has changed since the PC3 era, Kurz actually uses a mix of samples (upper tonewheels) and generated sine waves (lower tonewheels), so the tone is not strictly based on samples to begin with. Also, even when an emulation is comprised entirely of drawbar samples, that alone doesn't automatically give you the actual sound of B3 tonewheels, because on the real thing, they can sound different in combination than they do individually, so there is more to it than just having good sounding samples. (I'm not saying anything here about how good or bad Kurz is at handling these things, just that it is another variable.) Then there's the fact that a given tone can sound different at low volume vs. high. Also, a lot of the tone of the organ comes from the coloration introduced by the Leslie (where again the tone can change depending on how many notes you're playing at once and how loud you're playing them). So then the Leslie simulation becomes a big part of the tone (unless you're bypassing the sim and feeding the organ sound out of the board directly into an actual Leslie or external Leslie sim). And in terms of sounding like the real thing, all of that is even before you get to the leakage, click, percussion, CV. Anyway, the point is, to whatever extent you feel Kurz is falling short in sounding like the real thing, I'm not sure how much of it is addressable by "better samples."

[Theo Verelst]

Those complicated samples are probably containing multiple sub-signals built into them which aren't used right, it's like the instruments aren't DSP tuned to come to full and correct sounds even though a lot of DNA is present.

 

T

[Stokely]

Hey there, pulling this thread back up rather than create a new one.

With my PC4 in backorder limbo, it may be possible for me to get a deal on PC4-7.   My big concern is the action.  I know some people seem good with it, others not so much.

Justifications - While I originally ordered the PC4 FOR its weighted action--I suspect ultimately I may get a home controller that is more premium as far as action anyway, so as long as I can play piano "ok" on the 7, that would work.   I also likely would be moving the scale over to "easier to play" for synth and organ, I would hope at least.  I am planning on using this as my only keyboard on some gigs so that is a worthy aspect.

Is there any equivalent action out there (other than the SP6-7, which I've also never seen in the wild?)   I've seen a few comparisons to the Nord Electro action, which I really don't care for when it comes to piano; I could get by but it's not my favorite.   By way of contrast, I liked my v-combo waterfall action for playing piano (just not its sound so much!)   I've read a few things that the keys are sharp and edgy, which makes me concerned for any "robust" organ playing.

[Delaware Dave]

On 12/25/2021 at 5:04 PM, Jazzmammal said:

 

As a long time owner of a PC3, I still hear the same basic drawbar tone which is OK but not really authentic but I think the Leslie sim may be slightly better but still not close to the SK1 or Mojo that I have. I think Jim thinks that too or else he would have done more with it in this vid. I gigged with a PC1x for years using the KB3 and then the PC3. I made it work, band members thought it sounded like a real B3 but I sure didn't. Decent but no cigar but of course it depends on the players priorities. I'm a B3 first type. What I don't get is Kurz is famous for using some of the best samples ever created, yet the Hammond samples are close but not right. The docs have said for years those are real Hammond samples but they do not sound like it. The tone is not right in this vid and never has been going back to the K2000. Why that is I have no idea. They should easily be able to equal the best clones out there. And what's so frustrating is all these other sounds, the architecture, the live control you have on a gig are simply stellar but the organ just doesn't cut it for me. Sad, very sad. And the older I get the less I'm inclined to double rack even though I have everything I need (way more than I need) for that. Oh, well....

 

Bob

 

Not sure how much tweaking you've done with KB3.  The delivered organ and leslie are not optimizied.  I've done EXTENSIVE tweaking of both the organ and the leslie (far over 100 hours of tweaking).  Through a Vent/Burn I have KB3 sounding half decent.  C/V is not good and unfortunately can't be adjusted, I use C1 or at the most C2 because the 'movement' is too strong and can't be tamed, C3 is not really usable.  But I have the organ sounding good through an external leslie sim.  I also have tweaked the double leslie and single leslie extensively and have it acceptable, I've used it at gigs. Certainly not Vent/Burn quality and there is still a phaseyness that can't be removed but can be minimized.  I do wish that Kurzweil would re-do the organ with complete modeling and another crack at the leslie sim; hell I'd even take XK3c quality of both the organ and leslie; maybe Kurz could license the older Hammond technology.

[AnotherScott]

38 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Is there any equivalent action out there (other than the SP6-7, which I've also never seen in the wild?)   I've seen a few comparisons to the Nord Electro action, which I really don't care for when it comes to piano; I could get by but it's not my favorite.   By way of contrast, I liked my v-combo waterfall action for playing piano (just not its sound so much!)   I've read a few things that the keys are sharp and edgy, which makes me concerned for any "robust" organ playing.

 

Vox Continental action is excellent.

 

8 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

there is still a phaseyness that can't be removed but can be minimized.  I do wish that Kurzweil would re-do the organ with complete modeling

 

I have wondered to what extent the phaseyness might be a result of the fact that some of the drawbars are sampled rather than modeled.

 

[Stokely]

Thanks, Scott.  Do you mean the Vox is similar to the PC4-7?   I perhaps wasn't clear in my question, I was hoping for other keyboards whose actions are similar (better/worse) than the PC4-7 so I can get an idea of how it feels.   I haven't played the PC4 weighted action either, so whatever I pick would be a bit a of a crapshoot!

[AnotherScott]

For organ, Vox action is better than PC4-7, due to waterfall front, more curved edges all around IIRC, and I think less "clackiness" on side swipes. That said, I find the PC4-7 perfectly playable for organ, just not as good as the best of them.

 

For piano, it's a tougher call. Vox probably still has the edge because the keys are more even in response from front to back. Both are nicely more expressive than usual for playing piano from a semi-weighted action. Assuming I'm remembering correctly that the Vox side edges are smoother, that tends to be a slight detriment for piano making it easier to strike an adjacent key to what you intended, which sounds fine for organ but bad for piano, so that could favor the PC4-7 for piano. In the end, I'd be hard pressed to say which of the two actions I actually preferred for piano playing overall, in part because it's hard to completely separate your feeling about the action from your feeling about the sound. There's one piano sound on the PC4-7 that I really like, more than anything on the Vox, so that might be a factor for why, in the end, I enjoyed playing piano more on the PC4-7 than the Vox. But yes, if I'm playing something that requires some subtlety, I can get bit by the stiffness in the rear, which shouldn't be an issue on the Vox.

[Stokely]

What's kind of (darkly) funny is that I saw a used Forte 7 for a good price on GC.  Called them up to ask details on the condition.  Friendly staff, no problem until "Cosmetically, it's perfect, there's just one thing..."   Uh-oh...."It has turned off a few times in the store."    Er, yeah that immediately ruled it out for live playing...

The other downside for me with the Forte 7 would be that I don't currently have a case that fits it, so that's an additional non-trivial cost.  Minor ding for the 1/8" inputs, which I am planning to use with a second keyboard (I have an adapter that I used with my Electro though, it also has 1/8" input).   The upsides would be that 7 octaves is perfect, internal power supply (unless they are freaking prone to failure or something) and I know I like that action from experience with other keyboards.  So I'm keeping an eye out for sales on new or used Forte 7s.  

[Delaware Dave]

54 minutes ago, Stokely said:

"It has turned off a few times in the store."  

 

The Forte has an Auto Power Off feature that is defaulted to "On" and 30 minutes.  The previous owner (or anyone) may have left it this way intentionally or accidentally, or it occurred via a factory reset of the unit (perhaps by GC themselves) so that it is in factory delivered condition for the next customer. Most likely this is the reason for it turning off a few times in the store. 

[Stokely]

Holy cow, that could be it!  Sitting there unused in a store sure would meet the criteria...  I'll check back with the guy I spoke with to see if he can look for that setting (I see it's under global).

[Stokely]

I pulled the trigger on the used Forte 7!  Thanks Dave, I just assumed something was wrong with it, I called back the store and he said that was the deal.  Oddly I haven't noticed many of my keyboards having this feature in the past.

I'm pretty darn excited, because a 7 octave board makes more sense for me both live and in studio...and unless they've changed things a lot, I like the TP-40 action (caveat, my main exposure to it was my 90s controller so maybe modern versions are different.)    I'm also pretty excited to be getting a keyboard, since I'd purchased one back in early Dec 2021.

 

I have 45 days to return locally, this is the big reason I love buying from GC.

Now I need to buy a case or bag.  I'm debating the SKB i-series hard case (heavy, but protective and with wheels) or perhaps the Gator GKB soft case.  I have an 88 version of that, obviously that's too big.  I dislike the flimsy tops on those bags for trips on my rock-n-roller cart is my main dislike of those.  My buddy has the i-series for his Nord Stage ha 88 and yeah it's quite heavy, but he said it's built like a tank.

[nadroj]

IIRC there are some hardcases build for 61 key keyboards that fit the forte 7. Nice and compact.

[Stokely]

Yeah, I've got some research to do.  the GKB one has been mentioned here, the i-series slim 76 is a pretty good fit, 3-4 inches too long but they have little moveable cushions you can place in there.   For now I'll use my 88 even though it will swim in it!   

I can't complain, my buddy (smaller-framed and older than me) has a flight case for his Fantom 8 he gigs with.  That's pretty darn heavy.

[bfields]

"Oddly I haven't noticed many of my keyboards having this feature in the past."

 

I've noticed it in plenty of manuals, but rarely actually seen it kick in, because the auto-power-off timeout is usually really long.  (It defaults to 8 hours for the PC4.)

 

Thirty minutes is a strange default.

[Delaware Dave]

38 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I pulled the trigger on the used Forte 7!  Thanks Dave, I just assumed something was wrong with it, I called back the store and he said that was the deal.  Oddly I haven't noticed many of my keyboards having this feature in the past.

I'm pretty darn excited, because a 7 octave board makes more sense for me both live and in studio...and unless they've changed things a lot, I like the TP-40 action (caveat, my main exposure to it was my 90s controller so maybe modern versions are different.)    I'm also pretty excited to be getting a keyboard, since I'd purchased one back in early Dec 2021.

 

I have 45 days to return locally, this is the big reason I love buying from GC.

Now I need to buy a case or bag.  I'm debating the SKB i-series hard case (heavy, but protective and with wheels) or perhaps the Gator GKB soft case.  I have an 88 version of that, obviously that's too big.  I dislike the flimsy tops on those bags for trips on my rock-n-roller cart is my main dislike of those.  My buddy has the i-series for his Nord Stage ha 88 and yeah it's quite heavy, but he said it's built like a tank.

Since you have 45 days to return the keyboard I would hold off on ordering a case until you've actually decided to keep it.  For a variety of reasons you end up returning it; so the smart move is line up a case but hold off on the purchase until your definitely locked in on the purchase and determine it's a keeper.  

 

P.S.  If it doesn't work out and you decide to return it, let me know. I might come right behind you and purchase your returned unit.....

[Stokely]

Maybe that's the deal with keyboards I've owned.  The PC361 I use at home for a controller either doesn't have it, or someone (me maybe) turned it off at some point.

I note that the Gator TSA 61 case fits the Forte like a literal glove (and someone selling one on this forum a while back posted that he used this case).  That's 24 pounds and maybe more protection that I *really* need, but Thomann has this available for 100 bucks less than prices where (even with over 100 bucks shipping).  As long as I know I don't have to return it due to a bad fit...

Anyway I won't rule out a PC4 in my future but I've come to realize I do value a sturdy build even though practically speaking it's really easy to manhandle keyboards at gigs when they weight nothing (and I know the insides are the same).  But I've never warmed up to my MODX7 as I should have--it's an amazing keyboard really--and a big part of that is the fact that perhaps I'm stuck in the past when it comes to build.

Edit:  Dave, good advice there, especially when considering something ordered from Thomann.  

 

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, bfields said:

"Oddly I haven't noticed many of my keyboards having this feature in the past."

 

I've noticed it in plenty of manuals, but rarely actually seen it kick in, because the auto-power-off timeout is usually really long.  (It defaults to 8 hours for the PC4.)

 

Thirty minutes is a strange default.

 

 The Hammond SK Pro default is also 30 minutes. Yeah, it's short! The next shortest I've seen is my Dexibell which defaults to 2 hours.

[ffafchamps]

Hello,

 

I've had a PC4 for 4 days, I've never had a previous Kurzweil instrument.

I do not know if it's my ear or what but I find that the sounds do not have much depth, on a more depth (low) at Korg and more fishing at Roland.

I have a lot of synths at home and it's my only Kurzweil so I'm going to keep it for a while but I'm still unsatisfied in terms of sounds... it's a shame.

I would just like to point out that, being a Hi-Fi enthusiast, I connect my synths to very good equipment and the difference is still quite obvious, the extreme triton has a much fuller sound, which fills the room much more.

 

I hope to be able to have fairly neutral opinions because for my part I am not in favor of one or the other brand, it is just an observation.

[Delaware Dave]

On 1/25/2022 at 4:28 PM, AnotherScott said:

I have wondered to what extent the phaseyness might be a result of the fact that some of the drawbars are sampled rather than modeled.

The single leslies don't have any phaseyness to them, just the double leslies.  The issue with the single leslie is that it's not dynamic, the double leslie solves that but adds the phase.  I've been giving this some thought (again!) and have another experiment to try.  The current double leslie in the effects chain looks like this:  KB3A ->KB3B ->KB3A ->KB3B.  Exploring KB3A, if I recall correctly, is where things like C/V and other non-leslie effects are stored while KB3B is the leslie itself.  Why would the delivered double leslie go from a KB3A effect with things like C/V in it, to a leslie which then feeds another KB3A effect (C/V again) and then a 2nd leslie. Is the first KB3B which contains the leslie feeding the KB3A effect causing the phaseyness to occur?  Should it be KB3A -> KB3B -> KB3B or two effects chains in parallel, one KB3A ->KB3B and then an independent chain (maybe an aux chain) of KB3A ->KB3B in parallel rather than stringing everything together serially?  I might tackle this experiment and see what kind of result I get.

[Lady Gaia]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:52 AM, AnotherScott said:

 

 The Hammond SK Pro default is also 30 minutes. Yeah, it's short!

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a legal requirement in some region, because 30 minutes is also the default on Yamaha's CP-88.  More annoyingly still, it literally flips the physical switch off when the timer elapses so cycling power to the unit doesn't do anything to bring it back!  It was disconcerting when it happened and it meant I had to remove the keyboard from the desk tray it's installed in to switch it back on - and then disable the auto-off functionality.

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, Lady Gaia said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a legal requirement in some region

It's a European Union requirement iirc. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

I received the Forte, very impressed so far.  As I replied in the other thread, I'm struck by how dry the programs are (a good thing for use in gigging)!

Everything seems to sound better than my PC3, which has a bit of noise in the sound (one reason I'm not gigging it).   That said, the stock KB3 organ is worse, phasier-sounding and the leslie is bad.   I'm pretty sure I tweaked my two main PC3 organ patches based on posts here and elsewhere, so I need to do the same now.  The fast leslie sounds like a siren and I don't recall that on my PC3.   I have Dave Weiser's patch info and I can find Dave's tweaks (I think I used his to begin with years ago).

I may also consider a vent or Lester K, just for funsies since I have the extra outputs and I'm saving money vs the Stage 3 that I originally wanted     And of course I still have B-3X via my MODX for two-keyboard gigs--that's probably got me a bit spoiled sound-wise, I'm pretty used to that sound and it's super-nice.

The time-out was set to four hours, so that kind of makes sense since the GC employee said it had done it "once or twice".  I'll be putting it through its paces for the next 45 days.  I had a bad moment when I saw the box, a giant gash in the thing with bubble wrap peeking out.....UPS I tell you....


 

[Delaware Dave]

50 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I received the Forte, very impressed so far.  As I replied in the other thread, I'm struck by how dry the programs are (a good thing for use in gigging)!

Everything seems to sound better than my PC3, which has a bit of noise in the sound (one reason I'm not gigging it).   That said, the stock KB3 organ is worse, phasier-sounding and the leslie is bad.   I'm pretty sure I tweaked my two main PC3 organ patches based on posts here and elsewhere, so I need to do the same now.  The fast leslie sounds like a siren and I don't recall that on my PC3.   I have Dave Weiser's patch info and I can find Dave's tweaks (I think I used his to begin with years ago).

I may also consider a vent or Lester K, just for funsies since I have the extra outputs and I'm saving money vs the Stage 3 that I originally wanted     And of course I still have B-3X via my MODX for two-keyboard gigs--that's probably got me a bit spoiled sound-wise, I'm pretty used to that sound and it's super-nice.

The time-out was set to four hours, so that kind of makes sense since the GC employee said it had done it "once or twice".  I'll be putting it through its paces for the next 45 days.  I had a bad moment when I saw the box, a giant gash in the thing with bubble wrap peeking out.....UPS I tell you....


 

 

https://ksetlist.com/community/kurzweil-discussion/update-kb3-vastb3-setup-with-independent-drawbar-control/

 

The setup in the program tied to the link above has my upgraded double leslie.  Give that a try.  I've tweaked it further but this should provide a good start.

[Griswold]

Hey Stokely congrats on the Forte & I hope you love it. Before you do anything with modifying the B3 programs be sure & contact Dave Weiser to get his updated Forte patches.  He has fine tuned the B3, painos, Rhodes & a bunch of other programs specifically for the Forte.  He is very accomadating & will send these to you for free.

 

Yeah it's to bad the stock Forte B3 programs do not represent the capabilities of this keyboard very well.

 

Good luck,

Larry

[Jim Alfredson]

The KB3 engine in the Kurzweils is honestly not too bad. The weak link is the Leslie simulation. I sometimes use the KB3 engine in a Pink Floyd tribute band when I need to layer organ under piano, but I assign the output of the KB3 patch to it's own dedicated jack and run it through my Leslie 3300. Through a real Leslie, especially layered under a piano, it sounds fantastic. 

I do hope that Kurzweil eventually updates the Leslie simulation.

[Delaware Dave]

12 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

The KB3 engine in the Kurzweils is honestly not too bad. The weak link is the Leslie simulation. I sometimes use the KB3 engine in a Pink Floyd tribute band when I need to layer organ under piano, but I assign the output of the KB3 patch to it's own dedicated jack and run it through my Leslie 3300. Through a real Leslie, especially layered under a piano, it sounds fantastic. 

I do hope that Kurzweil eventually updates the Leslie simulation.

 

Two other things needing attention are the C/V (the Chorus is horrible) and the percussion which is  routed through the C/V rather than around the C/V.  Nothing like warbly percussion to ruin the experience.  You need to turn the C/V off when engaging percussion.  So for me percussion is a double press, turn Percussion on and turn C/V off.  I brought this to Kurzweil's attention (both Jean and Dave Weiser when Dave worked there) yet the Forte, PC4, and K2700 were developed with the same design and percussion is still routed through the C/V circuitry. the other issue is only one KB3 engine can be employed at at time.  So if you want a split/double manual organ the other organ must be a VAST organ.  The VAST organs are actually not too bad either, the issue is that VAST organs are not phase locked plus they use alot of polyphony. Apparently organ is not a priority for them. All other voices sound fantastic, if they would upgrade the organ/leslie they would blow the Nord Stage out of the water.  I'ved used a Burn and Vent with KB3 and with this mix it is definitely usable.

[Stokely]

Not trying to put down the PC4 by way of comparison--because I never got the chance to play or even see mine!--but the Forte 7 is pretty much my perfect weighted keyboard that I really had paid little attention to due to price.  I'm so used to that TP40 action that I took right to it.   It's an absolute tank, and thankfully is pretty easy to grasp and pick up due to the compact shape and angles (I've mentioned this before, some keyboards are especially hard to pick up due to the angles on the chassis.)  This was used and a lot cheaper than new, and while leery of buying used gear (had some successes, and some duds) I have 45 days to look for flaws.  

My one concern so far is that I've noticed an odd "double-take" in the sound of patches when you switch to them from another one.  It starts to play the new patch, then there's a very brief interruption in the sound, then it plays fine.  It consistently happens on organ patches, which perhaps is due to the switch in engines (?) but also on some other patches...but not 100%.  It is only noticeable when playing notes/passages that span the two patches so that may just be the machine not handling the switch well while playing.   It may not be a showstopper because I probably won't switch patches during a song that needed to instantly play (I'd just use the 2nd keyboard or set up layers or splits) but it's pretty odd.

I have contacted Dave W. and he sent me some stuff. I need to get familiar with how to load programs/sysex into the machine, and how to save things out for safekeeping.   I'll also look at the patch Delaware Dave posted above.   Do people use the Soundtower editor/librarian these days?    I'm struck by how few programs there are compared to my PC3.   This doesn't actually bother me too much, the PC3 list was so massive it was hard to navigate!  I don't see an obvious analog for the "quick access" section of the PC3, that would be a  bummer.  The Favorites are nice but that's way too few for gigs.

I've never used C/V that much, not being a real organist so I'm ok with not using it.   I did go in and try some of the double leslies in the FX Chains (holy crap there are a lot of FX chains!) and they sounded better than some of the stock patch leslies, in particular they were less siren-like.