Kurzweil PC4

[Mighty Motif Max]

Do you also make a lot of use of splits and layers that change per song, or is it generally just entire layers or static split points you use?

Usually one sound on top and one sound on bottom at any given time, except when I'm doing LH bass in which case the top board is split just for that,

 

I do occasionally do more elaborate splits, but most of the time, I don't need to.

 

 

Thanks, bfields and Al Coda for your additional input.

 

Ah, that changes everything! I can see why you'd like working with the patch organization the way you described. That would be perfect for that situation.

[Mighty Motif Max]

1. Use a multi per song

2. Program an empty/silent patch on the upper board to change to when controlling PC4 sounds

3. Within the PC4 multi, send a program change to the upper board that would either have it choose one of its own sounds or that silent patch if you were using it as a PC4 sound controller

4. Do zoning on the PC4 for that external midi channel

 

This is what I'm doing. Seems to work fine.

 

The second keyboard doesn't need zoning support, it can just transmit on a single MIDI channel. On the PC4 you add a zone to your multi, set the "input channel" to the channel the second keyboard transmits on, choose a program and key range and so on as normal, and repeat for as many zones as you'd like, and, voila, you get whatever arbitrary splits & layers you'd like on both keyboards.

 

That's what I've always done with my Motif. So useful, and one of the things I strongly dislike about the Montage and MODX is that Yamaha chose to cripple them so they can't do that. I haven't explored using a second keyboard with my PC4 yet but I'm glad to have confirmation that's doable.

 

5. In that multi, have a zone that would send to the upper board on the upper board's own midi channel and control a sound from there. Or if using a more advanced upper board (it actually looks like the MX could do this anyways), have that PC4 zone transmit on a different midi channel than the MX is transmitting on, and then have your silent program on the MX to control PC4 sounds while using a sound from the MX via a PC4 zone.

 

My second keyboard is monotimbral, so a disadvantage of the "silent patch" trick is that it rules this out.

 

The Deepmind manual does give a way to switch local control on and off over MIDI so I should probably figure that out some time instead.... But I haven't seen the need yet.

 

Ah, makes sense. That's where I was kind of curious about the Yamaha MX. But with that board it looks like you can have 16-part multis, just not play more than 2 from the keybed at once (but the others can be accessed via midi).

[jarrell]

My question to you would be, what is the advantage of setting things up that way vs doing the following?

 

1. Use a multi per song

You lost me at step 1! ;-) Copying from an old post in another thread that describes how I usually work:

 

My wedding band has a repertoire of literally hundreds of songs. I have no desire to program patches for all of them. 90% of them are dfferent combinations of the same 20 or so sounds. As long as I can grab those sounds when and where I want them, I'm all set, without any prep time. And I can do it on any of at least a half dozen boards (or board-pairs) I own, without having to re-program hundreds of songs if I have some reason to change boards. And as long as a board can do these things, I can change to a new board if I want, without having to reprogram hundreds of songs again.

My way of working, which I originally adopted with my Roland JV-90 back in the 90's, was to have several multi's that I used for everything, rather than having one per song. I set them up so that the buttons next to the sliders controlled mute/enable, and the sliders volume, like a mixing board. Then I would usually have only one sound enabled, so that when I selected the multi, I would have for example, just acoustic piano. For a lot of songs that might be all I need, but if not, I can quickly layer in or switch to Rhodes, pad, strings, brass, B3, and also bass. Then a second multi would be more Rhodes centric, so Rhodes enabled, with several different pads, flute or flugelhorn, strings, etc. ready to be unmuted as needed. This way I only needed a couple of multis, and for some I kind of standardized the slots, so primary sound (usually the only one enabled upon selection) in slot one, alternate in slot 2, pad in 3, strings or another pad in 4, horn (brass or reed) in 5, B3 in 6, 2 different bass sounds in 7 an 8. So, not a lot to memorize.

 

Having said that, I am doing more jazz, Brazilian and original music - if I was still doing cover band work, while my method would work well for a lot of tunes, some tunes might call for individually crafted multis. Even in that case, I might find a way to consolidate the needs of several songs into one multi.

[jarrell]

I am the proud owner of a new PC4, and with it came Dave Weiser's custom sound set (cool and cleverly programmed sounds; thanks Dave!). I have a few questions about adding samples, given that the PC3 has 2GB for user provided samples, but the manual doesn't say much other than that.

 

Here's my initial goal: I am thinking to add bass sounds, in particular, I think adding some additional fretless and electric samples would be nice. But in general, seems like I could add a number of different sample types - why not?

 

However I'm not clear on the best practices/easiest way to both add samples and create patches that use them. Yes, I can just put the samples on a USB stick, load them in, and then program patches from the front panel. No, I don't want to use the SoundTower editor - I don't trust it (when I used it with my PC3, it scrambled some patch parameters, just seemed buggy, and I don't want to corrupt any data I load into the PC4). If anyone has positive experiences with it, I'm all ears, but otherwise, no.

 

1.) I found Kurzweil Creator by Chicken Systems, which sounds like it takes WAV, aiff, and a few other non copy protected formats (like Apple .exs) and converts to KRZ format - not clear how much patch editing is actually possible. There is a free trial, but I'm wondering if anyone has had experience with this product, specifically as to how useful it is, and also if there was any problems generating corrupt KRZ files that caused problems when loaded into the PC4. I did see AnotherScott's thread about this, did you buy or use the demo?

 

2.) In general what samples have others been able to load int the PC4, and how did they do it? Use any software? (I'm on a Mac myself)...

 

3.) I've looked round for good bass samples, but one problem is copy protection. I own Trilian, which is great, but is copy protected (the sample files are in their own .db file format, not WAV or aiff, and not broken into individual files per sound, but for example one 6 GB file for all electric basses). I understand I can use their samples for my own private use, if I don't distribute them, but I can't get at the actual samples, so I'd have to sample each instrument, just like sampling a live instrument (does that make sense?). In other words, a more laborious project - play each note (or small note range) at several different velocities, and record it, to build up a sample set. Does this make sense, and has anyone done this?

 

4.) Any good bass libraries out there (with non copy protected samples) people have used? Max, did you get any bass samples loaded in your PC4?

 

Sorry for the long winded post :-)

[Jwave]

2.) In general what samples have others been able to load int the PC4, and how did they do it? Use any software? (I'm on a Mac myself)...

4.) Any good bass libraries out there (with non copy protected samples) people have used? Max, did you get any bass samples loaded in your PC4?

2) I've used the Windows program Awave Studio to convert soundfont libraries to .KRZ format to load into my PC4. I think the free demo allows conversion of just the first program in a soundfont.

4) It's no longer state of the art, but I got the Kurzweil Bass Gallery CD-ROM many years ago for my K2500 and now have some of these sounds on my PC4. It has over 600MB of .KRZ samples from 17 electric and acoustic basses and is listed on Reverb for $8.99 with free shipping from Alto Music.

[Mighty Motif Max]

I am the proud owner of a new PC4, and with it came Dave Weiser's custom sound set (cool and cleverly programmed sounds; thanks Dave!). I have a few questions about adding samples, given that the PC3 has 2GB for user provided samples, but the manual doesn't say much other than that.

 

Here's my initial goal: I am thinking to add bass sounds, in particular, I think adding some additional fretless and electric samples would be nice. But in general, seems like I could add a number of different sample types - why not?

 

...

4.) Any good bass libraries out there (with non copy protected samples) people have used? Max, did you get any bass samples loaded in your PC4?

 

I haven't had a chance yet - mainly due to not being able to find much in way of bass samples or soundfonts that weren't worse than what the PC4 already has!

 

I was looking at the Manytone Ultimate Bass Kit, but that's both old and I have no idea whether the developer is actually in business any longer.

 

2.) In general what samples have others been able to load int the PC4, and how did they do it? Use any software? (I'm on a Mac myself)...

4.) Any good bass libraries out there (with non copy protected samples) people have used? Max, did you get any bass samples loaded in your PC4?

2) I've used the Windows program Awave Studio to convert soundfont libraries to .KRZ format to load into my PC4. I think the free demo allows conversion of just the first program in a soundfont.

4) It's no longer state of the art, but I got the Kurzweil Bass Gallery CD-ROM many years ago for my K2500 and now have some of these sounds on my PC4. It has over 600MB of .KRZ samples from 17 electric and acoustic basses and is listed on Reverb for $8.99 with free shipping from Alto Music.

 

I thought I read that it was impossible to get the data off that CD-ROM without an SCSI drive and K-series board (neither of which I have) because of its formatting. Is that not true? Could a person get that CD-ROM, open the files on a computer, and convert from there?

[jarrell]

I thought I read that it was impossible to get the data off that CD-ROM without an SCSI drive and K-series board (neither of which I have) because of its formatting. Is that not true? Could a person get that CD-ROM, open the files on a computer, and convert from there?

 

Max, I'll let you know as I just bought it :-) I do have a K2500R and an old SCSI drive somewhere, but I doubt those are needed. Anyway, if it works I'm happy to send it along to you when I'm done.

[AnotherScott]

I'd have to sample each instrument, just like sampling a live instrument (does that make sense?). In other words, a more laborious project - play each note (or small note range) at several different velocities, and record it, to build up a sample set. Does this make sense, and has anyone done this?

There is software specifically to automate this process. SampleRobot is probably the name brand here. Others include Samplit and the AutoSampler that is part of Mainstage. (Since you have a Mac, I'm only listing Mac programs here.) I think Chicken Systems has programs that do this as well... possibly even included in the Kurz Creator (which I have not had an opportunity to look at yet).

[jarrell]

4.) Any good bass libraries out there (with non copy protected samples) people have used? Max, did you get any bass samples loaded in your PC4?

2) I've used the Windows program Awave Studio to convert soundfont libraries to .KRZ format to load into my PC4. I think the free demo allows conversion of just the first program in a soundfont.

4) It's no longer state of the art, but I got the Kurzweil Bass Gallery CD-ROM many years ago for my K2500 and now have some of these sounds on my PC4. It has over 600MB of .KRZ samples from 17 electric and acoustic basses and is listed on Reverb for $8.99 with free shipping from Alto Music.

 

Thanks for the info; I figured $9 - why not, and ordered the CD-ROM...

[jarrell]

I'd have to sample each instrument, just like sampling a live instrument (does that make sense?). In other words, a more laborious project - play each note (or small note range) at several different velocities, and record it, to build up a sample set. Does this make sense, and has anyone done this?

There is software specifically to automate this process. SampleRobot is probably the name brand here. Others include Samplit and the AutoSampler that is part of Mainstage. (Since you have a Mac, I'm only listing Mac programs here.) I think Chicken Systems has programs that do this as well... possibly even included in the Kurz Creator (which I have not had an opportunity to look at yet).

 

Thanks Scott. I just downloaded and briefly looked at the Kurzweil Creator manual, and it includes auto sampler functionality. I checked out SampleRobot - definitely pricier; not sure if it's better but no support for any Kurzweil formats on output that I could find...

[AnotherScott]

Thanks Scott. I just downloaded and briefly looked at the Kurzweil Creator manual, and it includes auto sampler functionality. I checked out SampleRobot - definitely pricier; not sure if it's better but no support for any Kurzweil formats on output that I could find...

Good point... If you used SampleRobot to create a soundfont, you still might want the Kurzweil Creator to load that Soundfont into the PC4, so might as well just use Kurzweil Creator to begin with! Unless SampleRobot has features that either make it faster/easier to do the sampling, or provides better results. They also have a free demo, IIRC.

[felis]

There's some older Kurzweil bass patches, among others, to hold you over, here: https://www.sweetwater.com/k2000/sounds.html

[jarrell]

Thanks Scott. I just downloaded and briefly looked at the Kurzweil Creator manual, and it includes auto sampler functionality. I checked out SampleRobot - definitely pricier; not sure if it's better but no support for any Kurzweil formats on output that I could find...

Good point... If you used SampleRobot to create a soundfont, you still might want the Kurzweil Creator to load that Soundfont into the PC4, so might as well just use Kurzweil Creator to begin with! Unless SampleRobot has features that either make it faster/easier to do the sampling, or provides better results. They also have a free demo, IIRC.

 

Yeah, I thought of using them both as well... I'll probably opt for Kurzweil Creator, see how working with it is, hopefully it is good enough. SampleRobot only has a demo for the $300 Pro version, not the $200 Multi-X version, so I'm rooting for the Chicken (hmm, good potential song title)...

[jarrell]

There's some older Kurzweil bass patches, among others, to hold you over, here: https://www.sweetwater.com/k2000/sounds.html

 

Thanks for the link... As old as these are, they may not come with a rich enough sample set (or any samples), but I'll check them out.

[Jwave]

I thought I read that it was impossible to get the data off that CD-ROM without an SCSI drive and K-series board (neither of which I have) because of its formatting. Is that not true? Could a person get that CD-ROM, open the files on a computer, and convert from there?

Good question - I forget how I got the files onto Windows and no longer have that CD-ROM. Maybe it was formatted as a DOS disk image which my PC was able to read. I've just ordered the related "Vintage Synth" CD-ROM and will let you know if I'm able to load the files in Windows.

[Chris Allen]

Hi All - am new here and just wanted to thank everyone for the comments opinions and advice on the PC4.

 

I have now been inspired to buy one! It arrives tomorrow so am looking forward to that although as a long time Roland devotee this is a first leap into Kurz world for me so am going to have to take some time getting used to a different way of doing things.

 

Hopefully this board gives me everything that I am looking for which is primarily a single board for gigging that can do everything reasonably well and which means i dont have to keep lugging 3 boards around. The light weight of the PC4 was a big selling point for me - am not getting any younger so things like ease of lugging, size and weight really matter now. (Drawbar control in KB3 mode and of course the plethora of assignable knobs sliders and buttons are also a real attraction for me.)

 

Some of the initial feedback on here has been really useful and also some of the links to other forums and sites are welcome - especially re VAST which I find both intriguing and daunting at the same time and I cant wait to delve into that particular world of opportunities.

 

Once again thanks for the research material - lets hope I like it!

[miden]

Referring to posts above, that Kurzweil Creator looked ok UNTIL, I read it needs iLok

[Jwave]

I thought I read that it was impossible to get the data off that CD-ROM without an SCSI drive and K-series board (neither of which I have) because of its formatting. Is that not true? Could a person get that CD-ROM, open the files on a computer, and convert from there?

Good question - I forget how I got the files onto Windows and no longer have that CD-ROM. Maybe it was formatted as a DOS disk image which my PC was able to read. I've just ordered the related "Vintage Synth" CD-ROM and will let you know if I'm able to load the files in Windows.

I've received the Kurzweil Classic Synth CD-ROM from Alto Music, containing over 2000 emulations of patches from 20 vintage analog and digital synths. I was able to copy the entire CD-ROM contents to my Windows 10 Dell laptop using the program "kcdread.exe" and the driver "FrogASPI.dll" (which needs to be renamed to "WnASPI32.dll" in the same directory). The instructions are here.

I just tested the first sawtooth brass program from the "ob8.krz" file and it sounds fine on my PC4. You can get the "Kurzweil Power Trio" bundle from Alto Music at Reverb for $9.99 (including shipping), which has both the Bass Gallery and Classic Synth CD-ROMs: CLONK

[Jaspla]

When you get your PC4 or SP6 (incl pc4-7 or sp6-7) -

 

- first thing: go to Kurzweil.com and download the 'Musician's Guide' PDF for your board - it doesn't ship with the unit and is absolutely needed (it's how you'll find instructions for Global settings noted below)

 

- second thing. As you 'plunk around' on the keys trying to feel out the action. Don't spend much time until you go into the board's Global settings and try the different 'Velocity Map' settings, and on the PC4 also the 'Pressure Map' settings.

For the PC4 there are 10 velocity settings and 7 pressure map settings...so using 'Fuzzy math' - somewhere in the area of 70 combinations of key velocity and pressure are available to optimize your 'touch'

If you're an 'acoustic' or EP (weighted keys) player, on the pc4-7, you might like one of the 'Hard' Velocity map settings along with a 'Harder' pressure map setting.

...checking these settings is quite important if your trying a board at some shop or studio - you have no idea how the last player left the settings.

 

As far as learning VAST, tutorials, etc. There are some in various areas including youtube, Facebook groups, and the 'Community' links on the Kurzweil web site, etc.

Note that for PC4, a percentage of the Forte video tutorials can be useful.

[Scandel]

Has anyone made a multi, say piano top, KB3 bottom half, that has the KB3 using the drawbars correctly, and moving each volume control to the knobs instead, and use the rest of knobs for presence, filter, reverb, or any important feature. Also, a Rhodes instead of piano and adding a Wah on modulation wheel like PC3.

[Fuzzy1]

When I make a Multi I always use CLEAR MULTI ! Simple reason is they made their ROM multis(50) - they work great - but I wouldn't use even one of them ! I want my stuff set up my and only My settings, my controllers , my splits, my layers what I want MY instrument to do! And Using PC4 CONTROL MULTI that's a great way of using all those wonderful controllers but I Won't using this MODE either - - cause How are you going to do Drawbars if it's set-up in this fashion? Simple use CLEAR MULTI !. This is really easy to do ONCE You understand Your midi cc controllers ! Jeez You can do about anything You can think of ! Have FUN & above all use Your imagination ! You'll be thrilled !!

[Fuzzy1]

And Scandel - -go invest into some volume pedals & sustain pedals cause on a PC4 You can use two cc vol. , controllers & 4 sustain type controllers . and they do work! My expression (vol.) pedals are 6 KEP100 On-Stage Stands KEP100 Expression Pedal from SweetWater Music instruments for 26.95 apiece and they work fine! Sustain pedal are a dime a dozen but get good ones ! The reason I got 6 Exp. pedals is for other keys too! Have fun ! Use the knobs for other stuff instead of vol. control!

[Scandel]

Thanks. I guess I can go make it, but you would think someone would have made an Organ split with active drawbars so far. Also, where is the Kb mutes? Did they remove it?

[Fuzzy1]

#1 I make mine in CLEAR MULTI and always start with zone1 for KB3 programs - zone 2 for pianos , elec. pianos - zone 3 for strings ,zone 4 , 5 , 6 ,whatever You want - splits & layers Your choice . There can be only 1 KB3 at any given time so that's why I put the KB3 programs in only zone 1 . Then I use these as templates mutes are what you make - for instance on my Pink Floyd's comfortly numb I have zones 2,3 and 4 open for the violin and brass sections and zone 1 (the KB3 ) is mute but when I hit button 1 it comes on seamlessly and 2,3 and4 are muted simultaneously.

#2 In zone 1 I assign the cc controllers to the sliders to work like drawbars . If You want to know what drawbar cc setting are just go to a KB3 (not a vast organ) program and hit edit - -I think You'll have fun there in the soft button called controllers and another thing look around in there and all the other places . Just remember when You go to the other modes( rom programs ,rom multis )these modes are limited -- -- Clear multi mode the sky the limit! Also - -save often review your work and realize this is a deep machine . It does take some time to set up Your templates. But once Your done its easy as pie!

[AnotherScott]

If You want to know what drawbar cc setting are just go to a KB3 (not a vast organ) program and hit edit

It would be nice if the PC4 manual included a list of the factory standard CC assignments.

 

I guess I can go make it, but you would think someone would have made an Organ split with active drawbars

I'm sure people have. But what are the odds that someone else will have chosen the same KB3 organ sound, the same split point, the same second instrument, and the same other knob assignments you want? I think the only thing you'd be saving over doing it from scratch yourself would be entering the 9 drawbar values. You'd probably have to alter all the other settings anyway, and would need a lot of the same knowledge. So while it would be nice to have that time-saver, at least maybe this will make you feel better, realizing it wouldn't save you so much time anyway. ;-) And once you do it once, you can copy and use it again as your own template for variations.

 

One I intend to do is setting up the 9 drawbars, but still use the first 4 buttons (normally brake and C/V settings in KB3 mode) as zone on/off buttons, and using the first 4 knobs as zone volumes. (I really have no need to use the brake or C/V buttons in performance.)

[Scandel]

You're right. So I made a split from the clear multi. Split at G3, 9ft grand top, Big rotary bottom transposed 2 octaves up. All sliders and switches made like the

stock B3 programs. I do like brake, but i probably don't need to change switch 3 and 4 often and thought about a place for piano presence here. Any setting besides Chor 1 does'nt sound good. Modulation wheel is distortion for organ, variation button is for leslie slow/fast, though stock fast leslies are not usable yet. Knob 1 is Piano volume, Knob 2 is Organ volume. Here I realized just adjusting the drawbars was more natural to get that volume balance correct. knob 3 to 6 I used for piano equalization. Knob 7 I put piano filter feq midi 12, then knob 8 and 9 is separate reverb for each instrument. Pretty happy with it

 

I then switched the top program to synth sound Gig lead. Off to the the races I went with Shine on you crazy diamond. Now I'm having fun. Need to make an adjustable delay for the synth on a knob though.

[Fuzzy1]

Now Your talking ! Have fun and go to www.masteringvast.com and get a subscription (costs about $4~5 bucks) this is where the Vast Guru's are! And above all else ENJOY! The Leslie that works for me is 1023 70s drawbars rtyx this a stock FX ! I changed Mine up a little but the thing is it's a has a double Leslie and when You raise the Modulation wheel the distortion kicks in - -to get to the FX hit edit - go to FX and highlight any of the colored boxes and hit edit again and Your there ! There You can customize those five boxes any way You like ! There's a lesson on Mastering Vast.com on how to make Your Leslie's sing !

[Synthaholic]

It would be nice if the PC4 manual included a list of the factory standard CC assignments.

 

7-20 of the PC4-7 manual.

 

Huh. I just went to try to grab the link, but Kurzweil.com is down.

[Synthaholic]

just got my PC4 and trying to setup multis that I had used with my PC1x for gigging .. wanted a simple 4 zone multi of 4 sounds that I could solo, mute etc when needed .. what a night mare .. sometimes the button is blue, sometimes purple, sometimes not at all, sometimes red ... it was so simple to solo, mute, layer etc on the PC1x ... what am I missing ????

 

 

Try this:

 

Hit "Multi'. Select #2047 - 'Clear Multi'. Hit 'Edit'.

On the left side, program 1 should be 'active' and the other 3 'muted'.

 

Set all 4 to active - the buttons should turn purple.

Select your sounds, set volumes and so on.

 

Now press 'Controls'. Hit 'enter' and one of the switch buttons at the same time.

If they're not set this way, set all switches with these settings (one at a time):

 

Switch - (1, 2, 3, or 4 - one at a time)

Mode = Midi CC

Type = Toggled

 

Destination = Mute Zone (149)

On Value = 0

Off Value = 127

Entry State = On

Exit State = None

 

What you end up with, is the buttons are purple when the zone is active, and if you push a button to mute a zone, the button is unlit.

 

Probably save it as a template with a new name and number. It sounds like a lot, but it's pretty quick to do.

If you're proficient with the keypad, that can help, and once it's done, you'll have a template to work from.

 

'Solo' zone is kind of funky right now. I think it's more for when you're setting things up than when playing. Maybe they'll change it if they get some input.

You have to be in "Edit", then hit the 'More' button (right or left) until you see one of the 'soft' buttons labeled "Solo Zone".

You also have to select the zone on the "Overview" page. Then when you hit the solo button that zone will be soloed.

 

Much quicker just to mute whatever zones you don't want to hear.

When you call up Clear Multi it has Zone 1 Active, but all 4 Zones are identical, correct? Then why, when unmuting each Zone, do I only get sound from Zone 1 and 2?

[sherry]

I really wish someone would post on Youtube how to achieve what Synthaholic posted. I'm also looking how to have a multi with a program/sound assigned to each of the buttons below the sliders, be able change sounds with ONE BUTTON PUSH. And, of course, no cutoff in sound. (I know, it all depends on the number of FX's assigned to each program) I've looked all over the net and can't find a posted video how to achieve this. Thanks.