Kurzweil PC4

[Mr. Nightime]

There is one thing that I don't care for on the PC4. I HATE the Leslie. The KB3 sounds are great, but the Leslie does not.

 

So, I took one of the KB3 patches, and changed around the effects so that the Leslie is bypassed, then routed to the B outputs. That way I run it through my Vent.

 

Much better.

 

I just need to tweak it a bit so I can get C3 chorale to work properly.

[ElmerJFudd]

There is one thing that I don't care for on the PC4. I HATE the Leslie. The KB3 sounds are great, but the Leslie does not.

 

So, I took one of the KB3 patches, and changed around the effects so that the Leslie is bypassed, then routed to the B outputs. That way I run it through my Vent.

 

Much better.

 

I just need to tweak it a bit so I can get C3 chorale to work properly.

 

The lovely benefits of instrument developers offering additional and assignable outs on their keyboards!

[Mr. Nightime]

There is one thing that I don't care for on the PC4. I HATE the Leslie. The KB3 sounds are great, but the Leslie does not.

 

So, I took one of the KB3 patches, and changed around the effects so that the Leslie is bypassed, then routed to the B outputs. That way I run it through my Vent.

 

Much better.

 

I just need to tweak it a bit so I can get C3 chorale to work properly.

 

The lovely benefits of instrument developers offering additional and assignable outs on their keyboards!

 

Agreed

 

I played a Yamaha MM8 for a long time. I was in a band where I played left hand bass all night. In order to get it sounding right, I had to split the keyboard, then use the Pan controls to send the bass out of one side, and the rest through the others. I ran the bass through a QSC K10, and everything else through 12" Mackie Thumps. Forced to be Mono

 

So much nicer the have the assignable output.

 

I got used to that with my old Korg M1

[AnotherScott]

Assignable Outs and Aftertouch are two huge features in a live performance keyboard, which is part of what makes the PC4 "best in class" for me. And having some memory for custom samples, too. I was really disappointed when Korg took all three of these features out when they replaced the TR with the M50.

[Delaware Dave]

There is one thing that I don't care for on the PC4. I HATE the Leslie. The KB3 sounds are great, but the Leslie does not.

 

So, I took one of the KB3 patches, and changed around the effects so that the Leslie is bypassed, then routed to the B outputs. That way I run it through my Vent.

 

Much better.

 

I just need to tweak it a bit so I can get C3 chorale to work properly.

Grab my file on this site: double organ/leslie improvement. Extract the leslie I created in that file and use it instead of the delivered ones in the PC4.

 

As far as the C/V, forget it; the chorus cannot be fixed. What I've found is to run either C2 or C1; C3 is unusable and Kurzweil does not offer any menu adjustments that will improve it. The leslie I created however is now acceptable: i've removed most of the phaseyness out of the leslie.

 

Other issues with KB3, the percussion is routed through the C/V rather than around the C/V. Push in all the drawbars, turn on C/V, turn on percussion and hit a note; you'll hear the percussion with C/V applied to it. I petitioned Kurzweil years ago to make a firmware correction for this but no dice; worse than that they've moved that design forward to the Forte and PC4.

[bfields]

A minor annoyance: by default none of the controllers that work in program mode work in combi mode any more, so it seems you have to reconnect them with Edit->Controllers. In particular I usually want the sustain pedal to work in the usual way, but configuring that by hand each time gets a little tedious; are there any shortcuts I'm missing there?

[Modler]

A minor annoyance: by default none of the controllers that work in program mode work in combi mode any more, so it seems you have to reconnect them with Edit->Controllers. In particular I usually want the sustain pedal to work in the usual way, but configuring that by hand each time gets a little tedious; are there any shortcuts I'm missing there?

 

If you start with 'Clear Multi' none of the controllers will be assigned. But in 'Default Multi' they are.

One problem to be aware of though is possible conflicts between the different zones assignments to knobs, faders and switches.

 

I would recommend you to save your own default multi with all the controllers set as you like them, and use that as a template whenever you want to make a multi.

[bfields]

If you start with 'Clear Multi' none of the controllers will be assigned. But in 'Default Multi' they are.

One problem to be aware of though is possible conflicts between the different zones assignments to knobs, faders and switches.

 

I would recommend you to save your own default multi with all the controllers set as you like them, and use that as a template whenever you want to make a multi.

 

Doh! Of course, thanks so much, that makes sense.

 

Sometimes this forum is the best.

 

(I think you mean the "PC4 Control" multi, though, I don't see a "Default Multi".)

[bfields]

I'd kill for documentation of presets, by the way. The program and multi templates are very handy, but I was also thinking of the all others.

 

To the uninitiated, the typical preset list can feel like an impenetrable thicket of keyboard-geek in-jokes. I realize it must be partly the result of trademark or other IP issues.

[Mr. Nightime]

There is one thing that I don't care for on the PC4. I HATE the Leslie. The KB3 sounds are great, but the Leslie does not.

 

So, I took one of the KB3 patches, and changed around the effects so that the Leslie is bypassed, then routed to the B outputs. That way I run it through my Vent.

 

Much better.

 

I just need to tweak it a bit so I can get C3 chorale to work properly.

Grab my file on this site: double organ/leslie improvement. Extract the leslie I created in that file and use it instead of the delivered ones in the PC4.

 

As far as the C/V, forget it; the chorus cannot be fixed. What I've found is to run either C2 or C1; C3 is unusable and Kurzweil does not offer any menu adjustments that will improve it. The leslie I created however is now acceptable: i've removed most of the phaseyness out of the leslie.

 

Other issues with KB3, the percussion is routed through the C/V rather than around the C/V. Push in all the drawbars, turn on C/V, turn on percussion and hit a note; you'll hear the percussion with C/V applied to it. I petitioned Kurzweil years ago to make a firmware correction for this but no dice; worse than that they've moved that design forward to the Forte and PC4.

 

Thanks

 

I'll read through it before trying to make any changes

 

I think part of my problem with the Leslie effect is it's too fast on fast speed.

 

I am debating whether to fix it, or just keep using the Vent. I only use the KB3 sounds when I don't set up the SK2

[Modler]

 

(I think you mean the "PC4 Control" multi, though, I don't see a "Default Multi".)

 

 

Yes you're completely right. Sorry for the confusion :-)

[Scandel]

Not being familiar with uploading samples and mapping into the PC4, is it possible to load fast Leslie samples and make keymaps and layers that could be controlled by the drawbars?

[Coker]

I think the Leslie speed is related to an effect you apply to the raw organ engine. There are different types of Leslie effects you can chain.

[Dave Weiser]

Not being familiar with uploading samples and mapping into the PC4, is it possible to load fast Leslie samples and make keymaps and layers that could be controlled by the drawbars?

 

KB3 is a separate sound engine, doesn't use keymaps, layers or samples the way the rest of the VAST sounds do. The Leslie is an FXchain. To change the Leslie speed you'll need to edit the FX chain, and on many of the programs you'll need to do it twice. This is because the Kurz team discovered (back when I was working there) that you could simply stick two of their Leslie effects in series, and it sounded better. Uses a ton of resources, is unwieldy to edit, and is a bit too "extreme" for some players.

 

It's a pain, but here's what to do: Edit the program, find the FX page, select the Leslie FX chain and hit Edit. You'll now see a chain, a series of boxes, and there should be duplicates. Should look something like kb3A kb3B // kb3A kb3B. The FAST and SLOW speeds for HI AND LOW rotors are pretty easy to recognize, can remember if they're in the A or B block. But whichever one it is, edit the times in BOTH blocks.

 

It's a total drag, but it should work.

 

Anyone who gets stuck with this sort of stuff can feel free to shoot me an email. Also, I'm happy to share my custom PC4 set with anyone from this forum. Includes all kinds of goodies, some very useful pianos, several crazy-ass Bootsy Collins Mutron basses, more EPs (including my update No Quarter program!), a bunch of analog synths, and some stuff I've done for Broadway shows and big rock acts. weiserdav@gmail.com

[Delaware Dave]

I think part of my problem with the Leslie effect is it's too fast on fast speed.

 

Kurzweil doesn't use actual RPM's in their edit menu's they use Hz. So 6.0Hz (in the US) is 360RPM (6 x 60hz = 360RPM). if you look at leslie sims like the GSI Burn (as an example) they also use Hz rather than RPM where Hammond uses RPM if I recall correctly. For the GSI Burn leslie horn 'fast' has three options:

1) 6.2Hz (372 RPM)

2) 6.8Hz (408 RPM)

3) 7.6Hz (456 RPM)

 

I set my Burn to 6.2Hz (372 RPM) and found it to be the most pleasing to my ears. It was closer to my 122 speed which I am accustomed to (YMMV). So you might want to set the KB3 fast horn speed to 6.2Hz and see how it sounds

 

for the Drum "fast" speed the GSI Burn uses these options:

1) 5.8Hz (348 RPM)

2) 6.4Hz (384 RPM)

3) 7.2Hz (432 RPM)

 

I also found that the slowest speed above worked best for me (5.8hz - 348RPM). It was closer to my 122 speed which I am accustomed to.

 

Ramp up and down on the drum are way to quick. The drum especially should "coast" down from fast to slow (at least 6 seconds). This really made a huge difference for me vs. the quick fast to slow of the KB3 drum speed. As Dave Weiser mentioned above the double leslie has two KB3b boxes so you have to do this edit in both KB3b boxes (each one representing its own leslie) unless you chose a leslie effect that only uses one leslie, i.e. one KB3b box. The double leslies do sound better.

 

My two cents.....

[AnotherScott]

So 6.0Hz (in the US) is 360RPM (6 x 60hz = 360RPM).

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I don't think US has anything to do with it. Hertz = cycles per second. RPM = rotations per minute. So the reason you multiply by 60 is simply that cycling/rotating once per second is the same as cycling/rotating 60 times per minute. Since a minute is 60 seconds anywhere in the world, this is not US specific. The fact that electricity in the US happens to run at 60 Hz is an unrelated coincidence.

 

Interesting discussion about the rates though. People will prefer different rates, there's no "correct" setting. Even an actual Leslie 122 had a belt you could move to any of three positions on the horn rotor, to select from among three different (pairs) of speeds. I wonder if that's how GSI determined what their three settings would be for the Burn.

[Delaware Dave]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, I don't think US has anything to do with it. Hertz = cycles per second. RPM = rotations per minute. So the reason you multiply by 60 is simply that cycling/rotating once per second is the same as cycling/rotating 60 times per minute. Since a minute is 60 seconds anywhere in the world, this is not US specific. The fact that electricity in the US happens to run at 60 Hz is an unrelated coincidence.

 

Your correct, I got my theories scrambled.

 

I'm guessing that the ratios between the three cycles on horn and drum were probably the belts on different pullies. The ratios could be swayed by belt tension and motor wear; the overall times could also be swayed by a motor being gunked up with oil and dirt and other variables. Motion Sound modeled their leslie from a well maintained 147 published @ 40/48 rpm's for slow rotor/horn. Perhaps the motors were in better condition allowing for a slightly faster speed; hard to say. I could swap out a motor for another motor and get different speeds as well. I tried to set my Motion Sound, GSI Burn and Vent to match my 122; whether my 122 is correct or not is another story but I like to be able to move from leslie to leslie/sim with capturing both the same speed and ramp up/down times as it is one less annoyance variable to worry about.

[Mr. Nightime]

What I would like to match is the rotor/drum speeds and ramp time to my Vent.

 

I keep the controls for the speeds and acceleration set to 12 o'clock, which seems to be just right to my ears.

 

I have not really looked that hard yet (so much to learn on the PC4), but can you adjust the distance, like you can on the vent?

[Delaware Dave]

As far as I recall distance is the one parameter that is missing from the PC series, however there is a level parameter (I think) and I found that bumping up the levels of both the drum and horn provides an increased level of presence that is sort of like a pseudo mic distance (i.e. has some level of relevance) but not exactly mic distance.

 

i just remembered about this youtube video where the user made some adjustments and you can clearly hear a more upfront rotor (trying to simulate the close mic). Not particular to my taste but I remember making a mental note because he seemed to find a way to get the mic closer to the rotors than what you normally hear. I also think I wrote to the user years ago and he sent me the fx chain for this leslie; I wanted to more or less understand what adjustments he made to get the rotors closer without Kurzweil offering a mic distance adjustment. The point is what you are looking for is somewhat do-able.

 

[video:youtube]

[Scandel]

I guess my question wasn't clear. My question was about bypassing KB3 effects, not modifying. Buying B3 sample library packages, or making my own on a Nord, and loading into the PC4. Would'nt you make a Vast B3, bypassing the KB3 Leslie effect? I know I would probably lose ramp up and down, but could this reasonably work, and could I at least make drawbar settings work mapped out correctly? Someone must have tried on this or the Forte. Wondering how well this works, or is it best to get a Vent. Also thinking to get B3X, or a Leslie on my IPad and plug into Audio in. Then I'd have a 1 board does everything. Id love an excuse to get rid of the Electro 5d for the PC4-7.

[mate stubb]

http://www.hotrodmotm.com/images/misc/sampleb3.png

[bfields]

If you're happy with just a single setting, then sure, you can sample that. But, no, as soon as you want to fool with the drawbars, it's not going to work.

 

You might think you could isolate each drawbar, sample that through the leslie, then add them together to get any combination of drawbars, but I don't think the leslie effect is linear in that way: summing leslie'd samples of 80000000 and 080000000 isn't going to give you the same result as if you put 880000000 through a leslie.

 

Among other problems.

 

In summary: yeah, what Boromir says.

[bfields]

If you're happy with just a single setting, then sure, you can sample that.

 

Eh, ignore me, you'll get the same problem once you play more than one key at a time. Plus the leslie sound will restart each time you play a new sample, so they'll all be out of sync.

 

There's a reason romplers have effects. It doesn't work to just bake them into samples.

[Bif_]

Buying B3 sample library packages, or making my own ..... and loading into the PC4.......would probably lose ramp up and down, but could this reasonably work,...... Wondering how well this works, or is it best to get a Vent.

 

I've played Hammond/Leslie samples.......it's horrible. Since every sampled note is mapped over several notes the Leslie speeds are different for every note. It's horrible. And yes, you lose ramp up and down. That, IMO is one of the most important parts of the Leslie, when it's ramping. No, samples don't work.

 

Yes, get a Vent. The Vent also gives you something important besides the right speeds of fast/slow, no warble, realistic ramp times, it also has the tone of a Leslie.

[Delaware Dave]

I guess my question wasn't clear. My question was about bypassing KB3 effects, not modifying. Buying B3 sample library packages, or making my own on a Nord, and loading into the PC4. Would'nt you make a Vast B3, bypassing the KB3 Leslie effect? I know I would probably lose ramp up and down, but could this reasonably work, and could I at least make drawbar settings work mapped out correctly? Someone must have tried on this or the Forte. Wondering how well this works, or is it best to get a Vent. Also thinking to get B3X, or a Leslie on my IPad and plug into Audio in. Then I'd have a 1 board does everything. Id love an excuse to get rid of the Electro 5d for the PC4-7.

 

KB3 organ using a Vent. I think that this is very passable and allowing to perhaps get rid of the 5D.....

 

[video:youtube]

[Mr. Nightime]

I took the 888000000 KB3 patch, bypassed the Leslie effect, and have it coming out of the B output through the vent.

 

That way I can use the sliders as drawbars, and have a good Leslie.

 

Good enough where I will sometimes leave the Hammond at home

[Scandel]

Thank you all. This is some awesome info, but now another question. When you routed the FX out to B, then to the neo, which original FX setting did you edit out the KB3A, and/or B? A single or double leslie? Did you keep 1 or 2 Chor/vib boxes? Does it matter?

[Dave Weiser]

Thank you all. This is some awesome info, but now another question. When you routed the FX out to B, then to the neo, which original FX setting did you edit out the KB3A, and/or B? A single or double leslie? Did you keep 1 or 2 Chor/vib boxes? Does it matter?

 

I would just get rid of all FX on the program. The chorus/vib is not good enough to make it worth keeping.

 

KB3 through a Vent is awesome - I was just playing that set up this afternoon, as my 5 yr old is obsessed with Deep Purple, wanted me to play along with Back Door! Now we've got the Vent hooked up to his kid-sized Loog 3-string guitar.

[Griswold]

Dave, I can't believe your son is FIVE already. I guess he has outgrown that Sesame Street guitar I gave Him:) Save up your money because Berklee is not cheap.

 

Btw I still use your custom organ patches extensively & almost always receive compliments on the sounds. Thanks man for your continued hard work & generosity.

 

For anyone that doesn't have Dave's Kurzweil sets, just reach out to him. You'll be glad you did.

 

Cheers,

Larry

[Dave Weiser]

Dave, I can't believe your son is FIVE already. I guess he has outgrown that Sesame Street guitar I gave Him:) Save up your money because Berklee is not cheap.

 

Btw I still use your custom organ patches extensively & almost always receive compliments on the sounds. Thanks man for your continued hard work & generosity.

 

For anyone that doesn't have Dave's Kurzweil sets, just reach out to him. You'll be glad you did.

 

Cheers,

Larry

 

Ha he loved the Elmo guitar and still rocks it occasionally! Thanks again!

 

Happy to share my custom sounds with anyone from this forum, free of charge. Just shoot me an email. Includes stuff I've done for Broadway shows and acts like The Who and Brian Wilson. Just added my updated version of No Quarter to my PC4 set!

weiserdav@gmail.com