Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[cedar]

I find my SS works fine in the <75 to 150 club, I am going thru the PA but the band hears me fine.

 

Would the SS work fine in a 75-150 club without a PA?

[cphollis]

I find my SS works fine in the <75 to 150 club, I am going thru the PA but the band hears me fine.

 

Would the SS work fine in a 75-150 club without a PA?

 

That would be a grey zone for me. How loud are the other players, what kind of music, how noisy is the crowd, etc. Not out of the question, not a sure thing either.

[garnermike]

When not using a Motion Sound K-8o as the sub amp on my GrooveTubes MarkII, I use a Promethean p3115 bass combo (300w, 15" woofer). It works just fine.

[AndyW]

When not using a Motion Sound K-8o as the sub amp on my GrooveTubes MarkII, I use a Promethean p3115 bass combo (300w, 15" woofer). It works just fine.

 

Thanks!

[Jazzmammal]

Would the SS work fine in a 75-150 club without a PA?

 

I posted that exact scenario (~100 people) but this thread is moving fast. I think it's about 10 pages back. Bottom line, loud 5 piece blues band and a girl singer. Only the vocals and sax in the PA. Loud drums and loud bass. I was plenty loud enough and frankly it surprised me. I had my ELX112P in the car and didn't need it. But to A.C's point I wasn't doing heavy minimoog synthy bass lines or other strong stuff like that, it was the usual SK1 organ and AP/EP/Clav.

 

Bob

[HAMEGZ]

Would the SS work fine in a 75-150 club without a PA?

 

I posted that exact scenario (~100 people) but this thread is moving fast. I think it's about 10 pages back. Bottom line, loud 5 piece blues band and a girl singer. Only the vocals and sax in the PA. Loud drums and loud bass. I was plenty loud enough and frankly it surprised me. I had my ELX112P in the car and didn't need it. But to A.C's point I wasn't doing heavy minimoog synthy bass lines or other strong stuff like that, it was the usual SK1 organ and AP/EP/Clav.

 

Bob

 

 

I was setting some patches at a club recently before the gig started and the guitarist, who was sitting out in the audience came up to me and said "your too loud in the PA, turn down!!"

 

The thing is,the pa was OFF at that point, LOL.It was a little bar, though, a50-75 patron size.

[mate stubb]

Guitar players.

[Aspen]

This is something that Aspen needs to chime in on, being that the capabilities in this regard are baked in. This is a question that needs to be answered in the owners manual and hopefully in the sales literature being that this system is optimally set-up with a sub.

OK, chiming in here. First off, let me clear something up; the SSV.3 really doesn't "need" a sub for the job it was designed to do...it sounds very good in the lower register "as is". Yes it starts to roll off about 3dB per octave @ 100Hz, but this is no big deal for a box of this size...in fact it has a surprising GOOD bass response!

Of course, if size were no issue (which it is), and it had a much larger box, it could go down smooth to 60Hz. But size was a target spec so that's my trade off. The 8" speaker can easily go flat to 60Hz, in the right cab design, but that is a mute point (3dB mute anyway : > ).

The sub out is there as an option for the really big bottom fans...again in most band situations the bass player is rattling that area already, and a sub sonic is lost (and BTW, IMHO, 100Hz IS bass, and not low mid!)

Look guys, we are all geeking out about "which sub", what "size", how much "power", which "xover point" and all that. But frankly IMHO we are talking about that last 2%! In fact, 98% of your patches do not NEED "flat to 20Hz".

The many players who've actually used the V.3 on stage by now have come to realize; V.3 is just fine w/o a sub....REALLY!!

IE: I recently demoed the V.3 to Leland Sklar at Michael Boddicker's Moog foundation charity gig a few weeks ago (he was in the band that night...amazing band). Well, I think you may agree that Lee knows something about bass. So we got to talking about subs, and right out of the box Leland says "I hate Subs!".

I do see his point, and I think subs, when too dominant, can be counter productive. And if used, it should be sparingly under 100Hz, and no more than 125Hz. Using too much sub overshadows the great sound of a well tuned tri-amped design. So my advice is, go easy because a sub can make your KB sound just too "boomy".

So anyway back to my Leland demo; I was in Michael's studio, set up in the piano room w/ his C7. Not too small and a nice sounding room. I had my little $50 swap meet Polk audio 10" swap meet sub under my V.3, but (as usual) just turned on a hair. For this initial demo I usually use Steely Dan's Babylon Sister to show off that big dopler Rhodes image...and then do the "with/without" the sub demo...placing the sub back on the floor when I unplug the sub. It is not a drastic difference, and while I do like "a touch" of sub for full bands, it sounds just fine w/o it. Leland actually liked the sound of the V.3 better w/o the sub!

 

Another thing to keep in mind, unlike 99.9% of all other keyboard amps on the market and/or that you have ever used...my SS V.3 is TRI-AMPED! This GREATLY reduces the negative effect a low bass dynamic from your LHB can have the midrange and HF components. (aka: IMD, intermodulation distortion). The triamped design is what produces it's "tight undistorted" bass and unusual full range clarity. Again, the sub doesn't "fix" anything here, and the SS V.3 bass response is NOT BROKEN!

But we gave the option and a sub can help add a bit more SPL, when needed for those larger gigs. But IMHO a sub should be "felt, but not "heard"....and my $50 HiFi sub has been plenty for 15% of situations where I needed one.

 

[Al Coda]

Yes it starts to roll off about 3dB per octave @ 100Hz ...

 

Thank you !

 

So,- for everyone wanting a sub occasionally and not to spend big money, the Behringer B1200D Pro seems to be the perfect match from specs when connecting the following way:

 

Mixer stereo-out > B1200D Pro stereo in

D1200 Pro filtered stereo out > CPS SpaceStation V3 stereo in.

Behringer B1200D Pro HP filtered audio out is a 18dB/ 100Hz Butterworth HP and meets the SSV3 at it´s -3dB (100Hz) point.

I think that´s perfect.

The Behringer B1200D Pro comes w/ an additional 70-150Hz / 24dB slope Butterworth hi-cut control, so it can be perfectly tuned to the SSV3,- IF all works reliable and as advertised.

Behringer filtered output is balanced 600 and unbalanced 300 Ohms on XLR.

XLR > TS cables needed for the SSV3! Easy DIY job.

Best,- it´s cheap and very compact too.

B1200D Pro

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[HammondDave]

Aspen is correct. I would never use a sub with a bass player in the band. One of our challenges as keyboard (especially Hammond) players is not to step on too many frequencies. Try playing with a damn Harmonica player! You really have to be careful with your drawbar registrations to stay in a supportive role and not gum up the mix.

 

Plus, who really needs to schlep around all that weight?

[Al Coda]

Aspen is correct. I would never use a sub with a bass player in the band. One of our challenges as keyboard (especially Hammond) players is not to step on too many frequencies. Try playing with a damn Harmonica player! You really have to be careful with your drawbar registrations to stay in a supportive role and not gum up the mix.

 

Plus, who really needs to schlep around all that weight?

 

I was only interested on the tech side of the coin, not personal philosophy how to pick up and set up gear.

I´m no "mono" guy since decades, my rig was stereo always.

At least I´d schlep 2 cabs regardless it is Aspen´s SSV3 and a small sub or any other conventional stereo system.

 

The Behringer is lightweight and compact and also acts as a stand for SSV3 to get it closer to the ears for a sitting position player.

That´s the position I prefer at rehearsals and/or small gigs now and in my age.

The way of setup I described in my post above for sure protects the SSV3´s woofers from any subsonic and low end stuff below 100Hz and that´s exactly what I have in mind when buying a SSV3.

 

In my home I play thru studio monitors, which I hate when not arranging & recording because I´m not always in the sweet spot when playing keys.

I have 2 pairs of 8" coax as well as a pair of 6.5" two way speakers.

NONE of ´em have enough low end for some synth sounds and (synth-) bass.

 

I wanna use the SSV3 also at home and play my rig.

There´s no bass player.

 

I think I´m not the only one.

 

IMO Lee Sklar is one of the best, if not the best bassplayer in the world, but he plays bass guitar and no keys.

Great he likes the SSV3.

When he goes on tour he gets all the gear he wants.

There´s in-ear for the big gigs anyway.

 

A.C.

[B. J. Love]

Well. From everything Aspen just wrote, I think I'm going to be very happy with my "cheapo" Behringer sub.

[Jazzmammal]

The Behringer is lightweight and compact and also acts as a stand for SSV3 to get it closer to the ears for a sitting position player. That´s the position I prefer at rehearsals and/or small gigs now and in my age.

 

Al you're assuming the SS is like a regular cabinet. In that case what you said is correct, I've done that too.

 

Trust me this SS is very different. I set it up on one of my EV SXA 100's in my living room and it hurt my ears. Seriously. That 6.5" bottom speaker is mounted sideways, the bottom of the cabinet is open to the air and if it's set up too high it's pointing right at your face. That side firing speaker plus the stereo voodoo Aspen has created is the reason the bass player at that bar gig actually told me to turn down at one point. I had the SS just 4" off the floor and in that loud environment I heard myself great.

 

I really was assuming I would need to schlep my ELX112P from the car, I was worried I wouldn't be heard but I decided to risk it for the first set and bring it in on the break if needed. Not only was it not needed, it wasn't close to being needed. I still had volume to spare because during the loudest songs the SS still sounded very clear I did not get the feeling I was pushing it at all.

 

Bob

[Al Coda]

Well. From everything Aspen just wrote, I think I'm going to be very happy with my "cheapo" Behringer sub.

 

YES !

It´s 100Hz HPF in the output is perfect as is it´s variable LPF w/ volume control for the sub itself.

I compared several small/"cheapo" subs and only the Behringer comes w/ these specs and features.

In the end it depends on if these are real or on paper only.

 

I´m not a big Behringer fan and as a result I´m sceptical always.

But let´s hope for the best, companies learn too.

At Behringer it´s not a problem of construction, it´s a problem of quality control when their chinese plant manufactures plethora of gear.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

 

Al you're assuming the SS is like a regular cabinet. In that case what you said is correct, I've done that too.

 

I´d say, I assume there are regular speakers in that cabinet.

 

Trust me this SS is very different. I set it up on one of my EV SXA 100's in my living room and it hurt my ears. Seriously. That 6.5" bottom speaker is mounted sideways, the bottom of the cabinet is open to the air and if it's set up too high it's pointing right at your face. That side firing speaker plus the stereo voodoo Aspen has created is the reason the bass player at that bar gig actually told me to turn down at one point. I had the SS just 4" off the floor and in that loud environment I heard myself great.

 

There is obviously some misunderstanding in the ballpark here.

I never said someone urgently needs a sub w/ the SSV3,- I cannot say that because up to now, I don´t have one.

 

When it comes to the (optional !) sub usage,- I also wasn´t talking about loudness,- I just only imagine I´d get better low end performance WHEN I need that.

I think I will because it´s a 12" long excursion woofer and the much smaller diameter SSV3 woofers and related amps have less work to do then.

You can easily saturate a 100W amp w/ a deep bass note, a kickdrum hit or a sample.

Using a sub w/ dedicated (the SSV3 matching !!!) HP and LP filters, you won´t !

I don´t think there´s anything wrong w/ that.

 

The discussion also started w/ the question whether it would be an improvement going w/ the stereo signal from a mixer into the sub 1st, then pass-thru to the SSV3 stereo inputs or not.

That question came up because the SSV3´s mono sub out doesn´t activate any HPF for the SSV3 when something is plugged in,- and it was not my question.

 

When asking for the -3dB point of the SSV3 it was all about finding the right, small, and hopefully affordable sub for that purpose and now we have it I think.

 

When I watched the early vids of the SSV3, it also impressed me Aspen demonstrated the box on top of his cheapo 10" sub, the SSV3 standing on that rotating shelf.

My visual impression alone was "that´s the right setup and height" of that speaker.

 

I think the little Behringer and the SSV3 makes a cool small stack,- at least for me.

 

A.C.

 

 

 

 

 

[drawback]

While I too have been devouring this thread since mid-summer, are we near the semantic saturation point yet?

 

I suggest we start a new debate: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently black

 

Discuss.

 

 

[Al Coda]

... are we near the semantic saturation point yet?

 

Yes, all said I think.

 

A.C.

[TomKittel]

... are we near the semantic saturation point yet?

 

Yes, all said I think.

 

A.C.

 

No, it's not all said yet: I want one!!

 

;-)

[spazzkey]

me too!! although I have to admit my AI amp continues to impress even in the loudest stage conditions... GAS? nothing like new toys...

[garnermike]

HammondDave I can totally understand your reasoning on when--or when not--to use a sub with this amp. But I think you'll agree with me that it depends on the band, it's sound, and a keyboardist's role in it.

I play my SK1 through the earlier iteration of the v3(SpaceStation MarkII) in a 3-piece band (guitar, drums, SK1 on the right hand and a dedicated keyboard for bass playing with my left hand). We play a lot of reggae and R&B which needs "grunt" from the keys. So I always have the mkII sub'ed out to an amp with good low end.

Being just a trio, I don't have low-frequency sound conflict issues between the SK1/mkII and the bass playing.

[RandyFF]

HammondDave I can totally understand your reasoning on when--or when not--to use a sub with this amp. But I think you'll agree with me that it depends on the band, it's sound, and a keyboardist's role in it.

I play my SK1 through the earlier iteration of the v3(SpaceStation MarkII) in a 3-piece band (guitar, drums, SK1 on the right hand and a dedicated keyboard for bass playing with my left hand). We play a lot of reggae and R&B which needs "grunt" from the keys. So I always have the mkII sub'ed out to an amp with good low end.

Being just a trio, I don't have low-frequency sound conflict issues between the SK1/mkII and the bass playing.

 

Yes, and I think the need for a powerful, well-matched sub is the difference between

1. Using the SS as a monitor (no need for extreme volume, not as much need for a sub), and

2. Using the SS as FOH. Besides bass, which doesn't always have it's own bass cab, there's the kick that benefits from a strong low end, and even with a bass player, there are moments when having a strong low end from the keyboard is called for. Having a powerful sub means there's less stress on the SS, so it can be turned up more.

 

When using the SS as FOH, you'll need all the help you can get when you get in larger venues. I for one would love being able to blanket the audience with stereo sound, and with larger venues/crowds that would be tricky with just a single SS and no sub, which is why I asked Aspen how he'd configure two SS's for FOH.

[Alan Steinberger]

I thought I'd throw in my 2¢, as I'm often performing on keyboards in halls seating 2000-3000 without benefit of a front of house system. I have in the past used multiple Bose L1 systems, which are of course superb, but it's a lot of gear to set up and tear down, and these days I'm down to just one L1 Model II.

 

I've been working this week in the 2265 seat Walt Disney Concert Hall, playing Hammond organ parts with the LA Phil. The tech-savvy conductor, Esa-Pekka Salonen (https://www.apple.com/your-verse/orchestrating-sound/), preferred I use a synth to a real B3 and Leslie, so I brought my Nord C2, and Aspen very kindly lent me a Spacestation v.3. He and I were both curious to see how it might work in a venue considerably larger than ever intended for its application.

 

Not only did I have plenty of volume, but the sound in general, and the built-in Leslie simulator in particular (my Vent II is still in transit), was by far the smoothest and creamiest I've ever heard out of the Nord. I neither felt the need nor desire to add a sub, despite having some left hand bass. Aspen attended last night's concert, and reported that even up in the balcony he could clearly hear the organ in stereo. Both musicians and technical staff were highly complimentary.

 

Needless to say, I placed an order with Sweetwater immediately after the first performance. This little box is a no-brainer purchase for everything from jazz clubs to concert halls, and will become my stereo stage monitor for larger venues like the Hollywood Bowl.

[RandyFF]

Wow, that must be a thrilling setting to play in!

 

It might not be fair though to compare that venue to a sound challenged venue like many of us face. I'm sure it's a multi-million dollar facility that was optimized for acoustics, meaning that you get maximum audio coverage with minimal volume. That is a killer endorsement though!

 

Must feel great to know the audience is hearing what you're hearing. Stereo for everyone is the holy grail as far as I'm concerned!

[Jazzmammal]

Alan that is amazing. Everybody knows I'm a big fan of the SS and even I am surprised by this. I've seen several shows there and I enjoyed the TV special some years ago about how they tuned the acoustics.

 

Bob

[Alan Steinberger]

No, I offer it as a contrast to the usual venues in which we'd use a Spacestation, and I still do my share of cheap jazz gigs in multi-thousand dollar facilities that are optimized for serving food and alcohol. :-) The challenge when working with orchestras is being loud enough in the house without leveling four stands of string players directly in front of me.

 

I was lucky in that the harpists, sitting immediately to my left, and thus with the side speaker pointing right in their direction, were off-stage for the selections I played on. We would have otherwise needed to provide them a baffle.

 

On the other hand, the drummer and pianist sitting behind me were both able to hear the Nord quite easily.

[AndyW]

Alan, thanks for the info. I'm not surprised at the SS sounding great with an orchestra. In fact, orchestras that occasionally use digital keyboards for convenience (celeste, harpsichord, organs, effects) may be a great market for Aspen to tap! I'll be your traveling salesman for that if you want.

 

As for the Leslie sim and the C/V--yes! everyone is blown away by that. Basically anything with stereo effects NEEDS the SS. C/V3 on my SK2 is so strong I thought about lowering the effect last night at a church gig.

 

One cure for blasting the person to the side of the SS (if the band is crammed in a corner) is to place the SS in the corner. This worked for me in a small, loud bar setting a couple of weeks ago. I wish I had an Aspen bobble-head to put on the top.

 

Also, listening to recordings--you'll hear new things you never realized were there.

[Alan Steinberger]

Thanks for the welcome and kind words, guys, and Andy, I'll try that tip sometime of putting the SS in a corner. Or, more likely, I'll just aim the side speaker at that one table whose diners never shut up. :-)

 

(Some awfully nice pianos among this forum's members, by the way. This is a classy crowd!)

[cphollis]

Alan, couldn't agree more: the SSv3 is a MONSTER when it comes to organ amplification. It's actually better than the high-priced stuff I usually use. If anything, I find myself dialing the bass down a bit. No sub for me!

 

I haven't quite figured out why that is yet, but I will. For some reason, it does organ/leslie sim amazingly well. Like supernaturally well.

 

Did a rehearsal tonight in an acoustically damped room, very little reverb etc. The little champ sounded amazing on just about everything I ran through it: organs, APs, EPs, samples, clavs, etc. The more I play through it, the more I like it. Best $599 I've spent in recent memory

[AnotherScott]

I'll try that tip sometime of putting the SS in a corner.

Nobody puts SS in the corner.

 

Okay, lame joke. But seriously, as a solution for the side-firing speaker blasting out the drummer, what about placing the speaker upside down, so that the side-firing speaker is facing the opposite direction? Assuming you are elevating the whole unit (so the HF driver wouldn't be on the floor), would this be a viable solution?

[AndyW]

Last night I played w/out sub in a restaurant/bar that holds 95 people. This was alto sax, Hammond, and drums. SS covered the low end great and even though there is a 5 feet tall wall that helps divide the bar everyone could hear the SS, bass and all. I have normally used a Motion Sound KT-80 as a 'sub' but now know its not needed. I did need to tweek the EQ a little and take some of the higher drawbars out (from 8 to 6). What I noticed is that at soft volumes the bass is lost but as you get cranking the balance of low/hi improves. Maybe Aspen can comment on that. I had a Leslie 147 that did this too a few years ago.