Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Aspen]

If there ever is to be a tube version of the SS maybe a separate head and cab would be the way to go.

 

There was; my first generation SFX line had an E1 CPS signal encoder (Chuck's "secret decoder ring") and two sizes of side cabs (S12 2x12" and S15 2x15"). So you could make a system with any number of separate components. You could use your favorite tube combo amp that has an FX loop and/or build most any system you like using your favorite QSC PA speaker for example. The Front speaker, and type of amp (tubes for me!) was completely optional, and could be what you already have!

Here's a link to a shot of my old SFX component line, you know it's an old shot because I still had some hair:

http://www.aspenandassoc.com/cpsgt.php

[Ken Beaumont]

I think you answered it with 'compress naturally', I can't give the physics why but every tube amp I've owned including a McIntosh stereo amp I refurbished myself back in the 90's just sounds better. I used to collect audiophile gear for years as a hobby. I only quit after losing partial hearing in my left ear due to restricted blood flow (mini stroke). And yes those amps can weigh a ton.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I remember reading that QSC found it cheaper to put two identical 500 watt amp modules, rather than two different wattage modules. Of course 500 watts to a horn is overkill, but it certainly gives one peace of mind that you will never send a clipped signal into that horn! I'm guessing they use their internal DSP to maintain the signal sent to the HF amp at a reasonable level otherwise QSC would be replacing a whole lot of horns!

 

If the QSC is like the JBL EON G2 series (I haven't been into my K10's), the amplifier module is a single stereo integrated amp. The cost savings come from the fact that these modules are made in large quantity for various home entertainment systems. Using standard parts that are produced in high volume results in lower cost of materials - even if some of the available power is not used.

 

[Aspen]

I've always heard that tube amps compress naturally as they approach saturation. I would think that the transients from a dynamic acoustic piano sample set would need a pretty powerful tube amp to be able to play loudly while having headroom available for transients. And powerful tube amps means large power transformers which could mean added weight. Not to rain on any parade and I'd be happy to be educated more on this topic, if not proven wrong completely!

 

You are mostly right here; tube amps weigh more, and much more than Class D amps. But it is not JUST that they sound better turned up, they sound better at ANY level. Yes, they "softly compress" (rather than squash nasty) much better than SS amps when hitting the ceiling of their output. But even at low levels they are dynamically superior to SS amps, although IMHO Class D amps are a big advance on this gap. I point to studio products that do not have "distortion" issues, like compare a AKG C12 tube mic to the evolved SS version of the AKG 414, or a Neumann early U47 as compared to their newer SS versions. The tube mic versions (w/ basically the same capsules) are far more popular with engineers that can afford them. And weight is not the issue here.

 

Then while most Hammond modeling samples are wonderful today, how many of you prefer the real thing and a Leslie given the choice, as we have in APR studios. Or listen to a Twin Reverb amp down low...deep amazing 3D image tone, and one that has an acoustical interaction with the player so every guitarist get's his own sound thru a tube amp, much like every piano player does on a real AP. I love the old "clean" Hendrix tracks (he used a Twin Reverb for many of his studio recordings), tone for days long before it hits "distortion" or compresses...in fact, that kind of dynamic realism is what guitar players want and why they continue to choose tube amps.

 

But what's that old saying; no pain, no gain! Life is full of trade offs!

 

But for me, and because I do not "tour", I have an all tube CPS guitar rig at APR studios; GT trio preamp into a GT D75 tube amp, driving a G3 SFX Cab. You won't believe how good this sounds until you play and hear it....nothing comes close when I add reverb, delay or chorus...as you are hearing with your Leslie sims now.

 

Ted Nugent heard my all tube system while walking down a NAMM aisle years ago. Jimmy Wigle, my guitar amp guru at GT, started playing Cat Scratch Fever and Ted whirled around and said "gimme that guitar". He proceeded to do a 20 minute set for a wide eyes crowd...then he ordered one on the spot. The irony was that Peavy had flown Ted in and paid all expenses for him to sign autographs on a new product he was endorsing. But by prior agreement, he would not play live in the booth!

 

Ted was an early proponent of SFX technology (we labeled the systems SFX back then, that was Fender's TM and used with their permission).

 

NOTE: But in 30 years I never gave anything away, or paid for endorsements...I always felt that was deceitful. Ted and all my Friends and Relations got good deal, nearly dealer price, but they always PAID to for their GT gear....so it really was an endorsement that mattered to me.

[Reezekeys]

I think you answered it with 'compress naturally', I can't give the physics why but every tube amp I've owned including a McIntosh stereo amp I refurbished myself back in the 90's just sounds better. I used to collect audiophile gear for years as a hobby. I only quit after losing partial hearing in my left ear due to restricted blood flow (mini stroke). And yes those amps can weigh a ton.

Yes this is what I've always heard tube amps have that "natural" compression and they also tend to distort in more "pleasing" ways when driven hard, than SS amps.

 

I understand why audiophiles might prefer that sound for their home stereos. I'm not quite sure if that would carry over to someone playing in a loud r&b band at their local bar, over the general noise of the bar patrons watching sports on the big screens while you're playing!

[Aspen]

Aspen, no anger- .... But there may be a little frustration with Sweetwater. Look over the postings here and you see that we got some widely varying responses to basically the same question, asked within a day or two. Some reps seemed determined to hold out hope, others to tamp down expectations. Aspen has given us all what we wanted from Sweetwater: a simple, honest answer.

 

To be fair, I must take all responsibility for that. I also had higher hopes like some of those SW reps echoed, to deliver sooner, but then stuff happened at the factory that pushed out delivery dates (NOTE: I have detailed just two of these misadventures here earlier, but there were at least a dozen attacks by the adversary while on my path home to Kansas). Sweetwater was just echoing my updates as "caca occured". So please don't blame them...blame me (while I blame evil forces, or maybe it was the wicked witch of the East!).

[Ken Beaumont]

I understand why audiophiles might prefer that sound for their home stereos. I'm not quite sure if that would carry over to someone playing in a loud r&b band at their local bar, over the general noise of the bar patrons watching sports on the big screens while you're playing!

 

True, but if I were playing a more intimate setting featuring a lot of solo piano then I would want something that sounded nice throughout the room.

 

Most of the patrons in a loud bar wouldn't notice the difference between the Spacestation and a Roland Amp. Sometimes you just have to please yourself.

[Reezekeys]

Aspen, thanks for the perspective, I appreciate the thorough reply! Of course I'd be interested to hear what a tube amp might sound like with my laptop rig. Maybe someday I'll get that chance. Once at a rehearsal studio I used a Twin to play my Rhodes sample set, it sounded awesome (not so good on AP sounds as one might expect). I think the speaker & cab must have a say in shaping the sound too though. When both a SS and tube amp are not close to clipping, what is the tube amp doing differently? Adding subtle harmonic distortion not present in SS amps? Or is it how they couple to speakers? This could probably open a can of worms, I know the tube vs SS debate has been going on a long time and I don't mean to start anything! I know that for my gigs I really need clean, punchy (i.e. fast slew rate), low-noise amplification with tons 'o headroom for those times I have to dig in. Maybe what you're taking about is more of a product for the recording studio than a traveling musician's arsenal.

[AnotherScott]

I understand why audiophiles might prefer that sound for their home stereos. I'm not quite sure if that would carry over to someone playing in a loud r&b band at their local bar, over the general noise of the bar patrons watching sports on the big screens while you're playing!

 

True, but if I were playing a more intimate setting featuring a lot of solo piano then I would want something that sounded nice throughout the room.

 

Most of the patrons in a loud bar wouldn't notice the difference between the Spacestation and a Roland Amp. Sometimes you just have to please yourself.

I agree with all of that. But also, at a gig a while back, my sax player walked out into the audience while we were playing, and his comment was basically that, while the band sounded spacious, it sounded like my keys were coming from a box at the side of the stage. Which they were (my keys were not in the mains for that gig). Of course, the guitarist's sound would also have been coming out of a single box behind him... but I think people expect to hear the sound of the guitar coming from where the guitarist is standing, and it still sounds "real" that way, where maybe it is a bit more disconcerting to hear, for example, a string section or a brass section or even a piano sound emanating from a single point, and these things lose some of their realism when spatially collapsed.

 

That said, I don't think the average audience member would have noticed anything "wrong" and it didn't stop people from dancing or affect my pay. ;-) But a more spacious sound might have created an even nicer audience experience (even if they wouldn't have been able to tell why), and/or been more pleasing for me and others on stage.

 

Though if you just want to get some "spread" to the sound, I suppose you can accomplish that even in mono, simply by placing another speaker at the other side of the stage. Which is basically all that happens on the gigs where I am also in the mains, since we usually run our mains in mono anyway.

[AnotherScott]

Once at a rehearsal studio I used a Twin to play my Rhodes sample set, it sounded awesome (not so good on AP sounds as one might expect).

Yes, for EP and organ, a Twin sounds great! They really benefit from the warm tube distortion. AP doesn't like distortion. So in a musical amplifier context, I wouldn't be looking to put an AP through tubes. OTOH, very high end stereo systems can still use tubes, and reproduce piano beautifully. So it's not merely the tube per se, it's the purpose of the design. A Twin is not designed for highly accurate sound, it is meant to impart its own tone, a very desirable tone for electric guitar and some other instruments. But that doesn't mean you can't design a tube-based system that is also accurate. But for live gigging, the extra size, weight, and expense for a type of improvement you'd be unlikely to hear in that context wouldn't seem to make it very practical!

[HAMEGZ]

I understand why audiophiles might prefer that sound for their home stereos. I'm not quite sure if that would carry over to someone playing in a loud r&b band at their local bar, over the general noise of the bar patrons watching sports on the big screens while you're playing!

 

True, but if I were playing a more intimate setting featuring a lot of solo piano then I would want something that sounded nice throughout the room.

 

Most of the patrons in a loud bar wouldn't notice the difference between the Spacestation and a Roland Amp. Sometimes you just have to please yourself.

 

Maybe not the audience, but I can tell you my band mates notice a huge difference in tonality and coverage between the SS and anything else.

 

 

My new sig line, SpaceStation V3, anything else is just a box.

[Al Coda]

Tube amps do a lot better job than digital amps.

 

There are not only tube- and digital amps out there.

 

I never understood why we now need 1000 or 2000W amps to get a good sound.

 

When I took my old and trusty Bryston 3B Pro amp (120W RMS into 8Ohm and 200W into 4 Ohm loads) and powered a pair of EV 1503 or 4 Dynacord FE 12.2, my sound was loud and clear indoor and outdoor and handled low end (Minimoog bass !) very good as well.

The EV 1503 were a EV EVM 15L, a 6" midrange speaker and a HF horn, the cab rated@ 100W RMS/8Ohms.

The Dynacord FE12.2 was a EV EVM 12L and a Mid/Hi horn-tweeter, the cab rated @150W RMS/8Ohms.

 

I´ve rarely seen any midrange- and/or HF driver handling more than 40-50W RMS when the X-over is ~2.5KHz lowest,- some handle only about 20W RMS.

 

So, I´d say we see these hi wattage because it´s needed in the digital amplifier technology and for the DSPs controlling mediocre and inefficient speakers.

 

Unfortunately the times are over when we got hi-quality Goodmans, Jensen, JBL or EV speakers when buying a professional amplifier.

Some still came w/ Alnico magnets like the JBL D120, D130 & D140s in Fender amps and cabs.

 

I remember the times when a RCF, Celestion or Eminence speaker was reviewed as a cheapo and lower quality product compared to JBL or EV chassis,- and now we see Eminence in almost every combo amp or cab manufactured.

Some use B&C chassis though, which is a step up.

I cannot comment on how the quality of the cheap speakers improved now ... did it ?

 

All I can say is, my Bryston amp is a solid state amp, has 2 independend PSUs and came w/ very large Roederstein electrolyt capacitors which obviously never fail,- and a 25 year warranty.

After 27 years we did a service and there was nothing to replace than a small cap related to the powerswitch.

The amp works like on day 1 and when I connect a 4 Ohm load per side, it´s loud as any guitar rig,- but undistorted !

Disadvantage, the amp is 3HU (but very short) and has a weight.

 

I have no clue what math is in use when small and lightweight active speakers are rated @1000 or 2000 watts,- but something might have changed here.

 

Nonetheless, an all tube keyboard amp solution might be interesting but will come bulky and power hungry I fear as I also fear broken tubes by transport which I had a lot in the past.

Do we get more reliable tubes today ?

 

A.C.

 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

Just wait until our relations with Russia and China get worse. No Tubes. Better buy a few sets and put them away.

[TomKittel]

 

When I took my old and trusty Bryston 3B Pro amp (120W RMS into 8Ohm and 200W into 4 Ohm loads) and powered a pair of EV 1503 or 4 Dynacord FE 12.2, my sound was loud and clear indoor and outdoor and handled low end (Minimoog bass !) very good as well.

The EV 1503 were a EV EVM 15L, a 6" midrange speaker and a HF horn, the cab rated@ 100W RMS/8Ohms.

 

 

 

Yeahh, those were the good times! I never again had better speakers for my keyboards than my two EV 1503 in stereo back then. And I was young enough to schlepp them...

[VLH]

They were good times until you moved your gear. And then they wrecked your back, because that gear weighed 3-6 times more than today's.

It's always a trade-off, unless you're really rich and can afford heavy gear and the people to move it for you.

[cphollis]

For those of us who do our own schlepping (and aren't exactly young anymore), weight really, really matters.

[Brettymike]

Lifting heavy gear has never strained my back so much , but my hands definitely don't feel like playing keys nicely.

After all the lifting I have to let my hands recoup so I can play properly.

 

BTW Aspen , I love your new product , and brilliant attitude all the way , it's been fascinating reading to say the least - hope you make a pretty penny .

 

Brett

[RandyFF]

Continuous watts are not the same as rms. If you go over to Harmony Central Live Sound and Production forum HC Live Sound and Production , they have quite a few electrical engineers and lots of very serious and experienced sound engineers; you can learn alot just by following this forum. They're constantly lambasting "Peak Power" "Continuous Power", etc. Note that Aspen has rated his units in RMS, which to my understanding translates to 1/2 to 1/4 the inflated "power" that is being advertised today. And as most of you know, the number of watts is only part of the story- the efficiency of the speaker is important as well.

 

However, most powered speakers these days benefit from compressor/limiters built-in. Some work much better than others,and instead of forcing the amp to be the limiter, it eases the overload. So perhaps as the SS evolves, there will be a well-designed limiter built-in to it.

 

Also, most live pa speakers that I read about these days have a LED that turns on when you're clipping or close to clipping the amp. That would be helpful in setting the maximum gain structure. An overload LED would be helpful at the input stage as well.

 

And I wonder how relevant getting a maximum db spl reading would be for the SS. For starters, most amps these days are inflating that number as well, calculating what it would be and not necessarily measuring it. And there is no industry standard, so they're free to go with whatever will give them the highest number. And, being that the sound transmission is not a directed as normal speakers, it's a bit of apples and oranges. If you can get a full, loud, satisfying sound without having to turn it up as drastically as conventional speakers have to in order to be heard by everyone, then I'm guessing there could be a difference of 10 db or so between the SS and everyone else. Personally, I'd rather hear a spacious, stereo sound than be blasted by sound systems that have to get really loud to achieve some kind of satisfaction.

 

So far I've heard mostly about this product as a personal monitor. I'm curious what a larger version of it or two SS v.3 stacked on top of each other FOH would do in your typical bar gig, where hard surfaces, low ceilings, etc., make for a smeary, out-of-control sound.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I posted my gig report in a typical medium sized loud bar (~100 people) a few days ago. It was loud enough to make me think about using my ear plugs and the SS was not maxed out. Sounded great. And sure, it would work very well as a personal monitor too on a big gig with a large FOH PA.

 

Bob

[Brettymike]

I can just imagine 3 or 4 or more of these SS's stacked on top of one another (in quadruple stereo ) , for a tall and very serious pillar of sound for the big gigs :-)

 

Brett

[Theo Verelst]

Most musical instrument amplification setups concern themselves with some way of limiting dangerous power levels, mainly in the mid-frequency range. Also, at higher volumes, only very good (usually the bigger ones) PA systems try for some amount of neutrality. A combo amp, not completely unlike a guitar or bass amp will distort in some ways, and favor certain frequencies and resonance modes, and of course fail to neutrally reproduce sub-low information, both transients and actual low notes.

 

It's hard to get studio norm or other forms of listener oriented neutral sound to come from a speaker solution, even if it's a big speaker. I agree: big, at least 3-way systems with very good (and probably tuned to the setup at hand) neutral amplifiers have the most potential to get good power to an audience, but clearly that still costs weight, mastering of complexity and in some cases more watts than desirable.

 

Many digital instruments make (IMO wrong) assumptions about sound reproduction, do people seem to think it OK to have an amplifier speaker system that makes their samples sound a certain way,. Unfortunately that isn't a real solution to the science at hand: normal DA converters make mistakes that require a filtering to correct that cannot come from speaker units/amps.

 

I don't think tubes are solution to bringing the warm and usable and safe power back (that makes people justifiably not afraid of the sound, but actually like it, and like louder because of the interest and warmth of the sound made by the amplified musician). Nice for guitars, and maybe sometimes, but generally that makes no sense to me. A combo amp variation with relatively and well adjusted amplification, a light supply unit with enough current peak ability, and some controls for "getting" a usable sound makes sense, because getting a full range sound from small cabinet, no matter what some specs suggest, easily will arrive at hard physical limitations. You can't get a neutral sound with a standard DA converter trying to compensate for small cabinet reflections and cone-displacement inaccuracies, and a 10 incher can't produce enough real low to bulge a plastic door, it would have to move back band forth 10 cm to do so...

 

So generally, a bit wide-frequency range light and medium sized cabinet with quality and low weight electronics are about the best to hope for, and certainly using moderate cabinets with tuned speaker solutions driven with not too neutral power, but decent properties is an option, too.

 

Theo V.

[Aspen]

...what is the tube amp doing differently? Adding subtle harmonic distortion not present in SS amps?

 

...I know that for my gigs I really need clean, punchy (i.e. fast slew rate), low-noise amplification with tons 'o headroom for those times I have to dig in.

 

OK then, IMHO, you are describing a tube amp, period. But of course for comparable power/SPL, that would also be heavier, more expensive and require maintenance.

[Aspen]

every tube amp I've owned including a McIntosh stereo amp I refurbished myself back in the 90's just sounds better.

 

Exactly, agreed, and while there are various explanations why that is (most wrong IMHO), it really doesn't matter "why".

[Aspen]

...if you just want to get some "spread" to the sound, I suppose you can accomplish that even in mono, simply by placing another speaker at the other side of the stage. Which is basically all that happens on the gigs where I am also in the mains, since we usually run our mains in mono anyway.

 

IMHO, Mono is like black and white TV, it's fine until you see color TV (stereo).

 

It amazes me how can any keyboard player who has heard his board thru headphones would NOT want to play in stereo.

 

IMHO, it's more about "depth", and less about "spread". More mono amps (spread) is just like a bigger Black and White TV...still lacks color.

 

Keyboard are 99% stereo, but keyboard amps are 99% Mono. We are trying to reverse an obvious inequity :>)

 

You want folks to dance? Then give them a Leslie that really spins in 3D stereo.

[Aspen]

... I can tell you my band mates notice a huge difference in tonality and coverage between the SS and anything else.

 

My new sig line, SpaceStation V3, anything else is just a box.

Awesome line, I may steal it!

[Aspen]

But that doesn't mean you can't design a tube-based system that is also accurate. But for live gigging, the extra size, weight, and expense for a type of improvement you'd be unlikely to hear in that context wouldn't seem to make it very practical!

 

Exactly! Well said.

[HAMEGZ]

But that doesn't mean you can't design a tube-based system that is also accurate. But for live gigging, the extra size, weight, and expense for a type of improvement you'd be unlikely to hear in that context wouldn't seem to make it very practical!

 

Exactly! Well said.

 

Unless you have roadies and a keyboard tech, in which case would play thru one of Aspens one off monster rigs also..

 

BUT since I am a weekend warrior and shlep my rig in a pickup truck myself, the SS is the ticket.

[Al Coda]

... and two sizes of side cabs (S12 2x12" and S15 2x15"). So you could make a system with any number of separate components.

 

Hi Aspen !

 

In your side cabs, why are the speakers mounted face to face to a single baffle board, instead each one fireing the normal way, one mounted to the left and the other to the right side of the cab ?

 

I understand you´re using the rear of the speaker cone(s), but speaker cones move back and forth, so I wonder what´s happening there physically.

 

Is there the typical speaker cutout in the baffle board ?

What´s up when one speaker cone pumps in the direction to the other ?

Is the other moving in the opposite direction then ?

 

I like the idea using a component system of M/S controller, dedicated side-cab and amp(s) and a separate (active) front speaker solution.

 

Nonetheless, I think the SSV3 is not only in the sense of portability an excellent solution for most gigging keyboardplayers, at least for the small gigs, rehearsals and at home.

A component system would be an alternative for the future though and possibly some artists would use both, depending on what the venue really needs.

 

I appreciate your sales work well which makes it possibly easier to find a europaen (or german) distributor/dealer, I hope.

 

A.C.

 

 

[Ashville.Guru]

Spent a few hours last night with mine. Here is what I wrote up.

 

-- Chuck

Chuck, thanks for the very informative, balanced, well written review. It answered most questions that I had. I'm hoping you can answer a couple more.

 

AP sounds are what I'm primarily interested in. You say that the SS imparts a certain color to the sound, in contrast to your high-end powered speakers. Yes, there are always tradeoffs, but let's simplify it to one hypothetical question:

 

If you were forced to choose between

1. 
   
2. A single (mono) powered speaker which is transparent, yet mono
   
3. The SpaceStation, which is colored, yet stereo

Which one would you go with? (1) is faithful to the tone, while (2) is faithful to the spatial image of playing at a grand piano.

 

In other words, is the stereo spatial image rewarding enough to compromise with the slight coloration the amp imparts?

 

I would value your insight in this matter.

 

- Guru

[cphollis]

Guru -- a great question, one that I really haven't answered for myself yet.

 

I think for me it's going to boil down to the role I want to play in the music we're performing.

 

If the APs need to be "up front" and very distinct, I'd probably go with the transparent speaker. Actually, two in my case, because I love stereo and big soundfields.

 

But I also perform music where APs are just fill for what's going on with the vocalist, guitarist, etc. Maybe I step out once in a while, but it's the exception vs. the rule. In that case, it's the Spacestation for me.

 

If you forced me to precisely answer your question, I'd go with the Spacestation: more usable in more situations.