Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[16251]

Talked to sweetwater yesterday, confirmed the next shipment won't be there til 12/23. I redirected my funds for the SS to an Ultranova. I have enough gigs between now and Dec to refund the SS kitty.

Since they're not shipping until around Xmas, maybe there will be a free case shipped with it.

[AndyW]

I wonder how a Fender Rumble 200 bass combo would sound as a 'sub'?

[HAMEGZ]

I wonder how a Fender Rumble 200 bass combo would sound as a 'sub'?

 

I thought about one of those until I found my deal on the TC Electronics 112 Bass Combo.

 

I think a bass guitar amp would work very well.

[AndyW]

I wonder how a Fender Rumble 200 bass combo would sound as a 'sub'?

 

I thought about one of those until I found my deal on the TC Electronics 112 Bass Combo.

 

I think a bass guitar amp would work very well.

 

Are you using that for Hammond tones?

[HAMEGZ]

I wonder how a Fender Rumble 200 bass combo would sound as a 'sub'?

 

I thought about one of those until I found my deal on the TC Electronics 112 Bass Combo.

 

I think a bass guitar amp would work very well.

 

Are you using that for Hammond tones?

 

 

Well AFA playing LH Bass, no, I am not playing bass pedals/tones on the organ or any other patch.

 

But the organ, pianos, and everything else are going thru the sub out to the bass amp, yes.

[HAMEGZ]

I just received my cover for my SS today, It looks good, will give a report when I can slip it over the SS

[AndyW]

Got my cover today too.

[Les Mizzell]

So, if you're going to use a sub with the SS, optimally you'd look for a sub with stereo inputs and a crossover on the outputs to patch up to the SS. Otherwise, you'd need a external crossover to get optimal performance, yes?

[Al Coda]

So, if you're going to use a sub with the SS, optimally you'd look for a sub with stereo inputs and a crossover on the outputs to patch up to the SS. Otherwise, you'd need a external crossover to get optimal performance, yes?

 

Ideally yes,- because that takes load from the SSV3´s 8" (center) and 6" (side) woofers.

Leaves the question what the ideal x-over frequncy for the SSV3 is,- the manual/specs say "100Hz - 20KHz usable".

Now "usable" can be -3dB, -6db or -10dB @100Hz and 20KHz,- depending on the measurement method.

From my experience, the lowest usable frequency of the mid/hi speaker isn´t the ideal x-over frequency, you might need a somewhat higher x-over frequency because of the filter´s slope which can also be -6db, -12 , -18 or whatever,- depending on filter type and order.

 

So, the best subwoofer is possible the one offering balanced stereo inputs, stereo thru-puts and filtered stereo outputs offering user adjustable x-over frequency within a range.

Additional phase correction and adjustable low pass filter for the sub itself makes it perfect.

 

Now, when I look at the cheap subs like Alto, Behringer etc,- I miss specs for slope of the filters.

The Behringer D1200 comes w/ a fixed X-over frequency of 100Hz which might not be ideal. I think 125 Hz would be better.

The Alto TS12 Sub offers a HPF, but it is 80Hz fixed,- too low IMO.

 

The much more expensive Yamaha DXS 12 comes w/ switchable LPF 80 / 100 / 120 Hz,- but that´s for the sub itself only.

The DXS 12 is missing a dedicated (HP filtered) pair of outputs to mid/hi cabs completely,- there are thru-outputs only and these are, to my understanding, fullrange.

 

It´s really sad a "125Hz" HP-switch is missing for the SSV3 and when using a sub w/ stereo ins and thrus.

Balanced stereo ins would be an improvement too.

 

It´s all compromizes.

From professional standpoint I see an external active stereo x-over unit, but that´s one more piece of gear in the ballpark.

 

A.C.

[Raymb1]

{Regarding your SSV3 sub out question; it's taken from the FRONT signal (L+R, mono compatible) and it is full range.}

 

Wouldn't this line from one of Aspen's posts negate the need for a stereo bass sub? Ray

[DanL]

Raymb1, I think the point is you don't necessarily want to feed a full range signal from the SS to the sub, you want to feed the signal from your mixer/keyboard to the sub to take advantage of it's crossover by taking the high pass outs of the sub and feeding those to the SS.

 

If you feed the full range signal to the sub from the SS, then you aren't using the sub's crossover and you will be getting higher frequencies being output by the sub which may not be desirable.

[Raymb1]

I know one needs a crossover. What I meant was is that the sub out from the SS is mono according to Aspen. So, there is no need for a bass unit with stereo inputs. Ray

[Ken Beaumont]

Exactly, you will get more head room out of the SS because it doesn't have to amplify the bass. Years ago for my PA system, I bought 2 subs and a crossover to get better bass, I quickly realized that doing that made my mains sound a whole lot clearer!

[B. J. Love]

This was addressed earlier in the thread:

This may have already been mentioned here somewhere, but does using the Sub Out also engage a filter to take the lows out of the SpaceStation itself?

 

There's no mention of it in the current brochure, but the MK2 had a 100Hz filter that automatically engaged when the sub output was connected.

 

Right, there is no mention for several reasons, 1) there isn't one, and 2) because we now are tri=amped in the Front speaker we avoided IMD (intermodulation distortion) in a much better way so this is not necessary anymore, and 3) we wanted to provide a full range Sub so it could also be used as a Front (L+R) booster option, like setting the V.3 on top of a powered PA cab and then pumping up it's Side to balance.

I bought the Berhringer, so I'll be able to test it both ways. I'm encouraged by the fact that the MK2's internal crossover was fixed at 100 Hz - same as the Behringer's - but I don't know how applicable it is considering how much the amplification has changed between the MK2 and the V3.

[AndyW]

This was addressed earlier in the thread:

This may have already been mentioned here somewhere, but does using the Sub Out also engage a filter to take the lows out of the SpaceStation itself?

 

There's no mention of it in the current brochure, but the MK2 had a 100Hz filter that automatically engaged when the sub output was connected.

 

Right, there is no mention for several reasons, 1) there isn't one, and 2) because we now are tri=amped in the Front speaker we avoided IMD (intermodulation distortion) in a much better way so this is not necessary anymore, and 3) we wanted to provide a full range Sub so it could also be used as a Front (L+R) booster option, like setting the V.3 on top of a powered PA cab and then pumping up it's Side to balance.

I bought the Berhringer, so I'll be able to test it both ways. I'm encouraged by the fact that the MK2's internal crossover was fixed at 100 Hz - same as the Behringer's - but I don't know how applicable it is considering how much the amplification has changed between the MK2 and the V3.

 

 

NEW STARTS HERE: guess we hit the max on quotes:

While a sub may not keep the SS from wasting amps on bass tones directly it will allow you to turn up the HF horn, mid, and width while keeping the 8 inch driver from overloading.

 

 

[Al Coda]

 

I bought the Berhringer, so I'll be able to test it both ways. I'm encouraged by the fact that the MK2's internal crossover was fixed at 100 Hz - same as the Behringer's - but I don't know how applicable it is considering how much the amplification has changed between the MK2 and the V3.

 

Now we´re talking !

 

The Spacestation mkII specs were "60Hz - 20KHz usable".

Spacestation V3 is "100Hz - 20Khz usable" ...

 

So, a 100Hz x-over frequency for the Spacestation mkII to me sounds good, but not for the SSV3.

IMO, it should be somewhat higher depending on the filters used in the sub.

It is not a question of "checking something out by ear".

You normally want -3dB signal level @crossover frequency and it also depends on how high your sub goes and how low the 8" and 6" woofers of the SSV3 REALLY go.

In fact, you not only want to operate your SSV3 save, you also don´t want overlapping frequencies of sub and fullrange cab too much and you also don´t want any gap in the audio too.

And as I said above,- usable lowest and highest frequency of a speaker and/or cabinet, if seriously measured, means -3dB but is very often -6db and sometimes -10dB SPL,- the latter is often the case w/ Yamaha b.t.w..

It makes no sense the additional sub does some work and the woofers of the SSV3 do the same work too, wearing out much earlier and delivering unwanted audio artefacts like phase cancellations and/or imprecise low end.

It´s not good for any 8" and 6" LS handling the low end.

These are typically low midrange speakers and only the mid-horn and super-tweeter extend the upper range in the SSV3.

 

A.C.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

It´s not good for any 8" and 6" LS handling the low end. These are typically low midrange speakers and only the mid-horn and super-tweeter extend the upper range in the SSV3.

 

I think you're making way to big a deal about this A.C. First, the 8" woofer is already spec'd at 100hz. That's not low bass, it's low midrange. Second, the amp is triamped. The woofer has it's own amp so it's protected. Third, what do you mean "it wears out much earlier? Earlier than what, 20 years? I've got speakers that are probably older than you are. The only thing that happens is the foam surrounds need replacing and if they're really, really old the magnets need regaussing. If they're being abused to the point of blowing out the voice coil your hearing isn't good enough to tell you're going into distortion? Any decent player will hear that and turn it down way before any damage.

 

Remember, this new SS V.3 is not a high powered solution to a 5 piece head banging prog rock band. It's either going to be used as a primary amp for small to medium venues or act as a stage monitor while the band is going out through a large FOH system.

 

I'm telling you when I was in Aspens studio listening to Al playing the new Casio piano, it sounded great just using that $50 thrift shop 10" sub. Listen to his video and do it with headphones so you can really crank it. Sounds very good. The only distortion I heard was when I tried to use the manual bass option on my SK1. That throws the pedals into the mix and yes for somebody playing bass pedals they'll need a proper pro stage sub.

 

All this talk about a concert grand piano's lowest note going to 27hz or whatever, where are you going to use that in a real world gig? In somebody's private house party in the Hollywood Hills like I did a few years ago? I was already told to turn down to the point I was quieter than a small upright would have been. Are you going to care about that in a quiet restaurant lounge solo piano gig?

 

You're never going to use that bottom octave in a band situation if you want to live. How many times do guys post here about how much better a simple compressed piano patch sounds with a full band live? An awesome multigig piano sample is too fat to blend in properly. True, you might have one piano intro where it's just you and you might, maybe use that last octave for one quick passage. Somebody is going to obsess about the perfect sub that "goes all the way down" just for that?

 

Bob

[RandyFF]

--------------Ooops, looks like Jazzamal wrote while I was typing. Bob, I don't think the questions raised are about getting the deepest possible low frequency using a sub (that's just a function of the capabilities of the sub), it's about the crossover point where the sub and SS meet. The question I understood is,

? Where is the -6 or -12 downpoint of the SS, so that you know where to set the corresponding downpoint of the sub, thereby not having overlapping frequencies where these two speakers meet and there's either a hole at that frequency or too much going on. Having 100 hz overemphasized for example, could get quite boomy, esp. at higher volumes.---------------------

 

 

I don't know how the SS v.3 is tuned and the low frequency capabilities of the 8" front firing woofer, but I doubt that what sounds like a good quality 8" eminence speaker is not easily going down to 80 hz, with the -3db down point being somewhere above 70 hz. Multiple people have commented on how the v.3 did a credible job even w/o a sub.

 

My guess is that what Aspen means by "useable" is that, paired with a sub, you can set the low pass filter on the sub at 100 hz and get good results. It doesn't make sense to me though, 'cause I would think there would be considerable overlap with a sub at least from 90 hz and above.

 

This is something that Aspen needs to chime in on, being that the capabilities in this regard are baked in. This is a question that needs to be answered in the owners manual and hopefully in the sales literature being that this system is optimally set-up with a sub.

 

There are numerous ambiguities like this that need clarification. We have the advantage of working this stuff out with Aspen, but for the majority of users this would be a huge question mark.

 

 

[drawback]

I've got speakers that are probably older than you are.

 

Can I use that?

 

 

[Al Coda]

I think you're making way to big a deal about this A.C. Bob

 

No, I don´t think I do.

I don´t criticize or blame the SSV3 at all.

My comments are only valid WHEN looking for the right sub for the scenario NOT using the SSV3´s mono/fullrange signal feeding a sub and using a stereo signal passing thru the sub to the SSV3 instead.

 

Everyone who wants it simple is free going the other way around and be happy,- or using it without a sub.

 

B.t.w. a loudspeaker is in no way protected at low end by a separate amp when that amp doesn´t get a HP filtered signal and I doubt the amps in the SSV3 are frequency band limited ones except these for the midrange-horndriver and HF tweeter.

The 100Hz is just only the 8" front speaker´s limit,- the 6" side speaker might be on par, but I´m not sure.

 

Playing Minimoog D bass w/o using the right sub is probably not the best idea.

 

A.C.

[Al Coda]

I've got speakers that are probably older than you are.

 

Can I use that?

 

 

I hope so, because that would be alnico magnet speakers for sure, cast iron gasket, 4 inch flat wound copper voice coil and such ...

 

A.C.

[Jazzmammal]

Playing Minimoog D bass w/o using the right sub is probably not the best idea.

 

Sure, that's what I said concerning the bass pedals. If you're doing that, you'll need a sub. Still, Aspen has already written a ton of technical posts about this. Maybe not as technical as some of you want but technical enough imo. Having a full range sub out is not a problem but I certainly know some of you guys just love batting around this stuff...

 

Bob

[Al Coda]

...it's about the crossover point where the sub and SS meet.

 

exactly !

 

The question I understood is,...

Where is the -6 or -12 downpoint of the SS, so that you know where to set the corresponding downpoint of the sub, thereby not having overlapping frequencies where these two speakers meet and there's either a hole at that frequency or too much going on. Having 100 hz overemphasized for example, could get quite boomy, esp. at higher volumes.

 

You understood that very, very good !

But we cannot hold back people from buying cheapo Behringer or other cheapo brands and do a test.

I hope they can trust their ears in the low frequency department.

All I know is, once someone buyed something, he WANTS it to be good even it isn´t.

 

And, you won´t believe how much I myself want to like the SSV3 and a cheapo sub in addition,- but eventually the SSV3 alone is better than together w/ a cheapo sub, you know.

 

I´m also pretty sure I´ll buy a SSV3 sooner or later because it´s the only cab I´d personally need since 2-3 decades.

All I needed backline wise for gigging/touring before was there,- always.

SSV3 is so cool and portable, I really want it for my small car and the "quicky" gig,- cheapo sub in addition if that works well.

In fact, it would be great when Aspen came and told us what the ideal x-over frequency for the SSV3 would be, just because there are not many specs available,- no SPL@1Khz/1mtr (3 feet), no SPL/dB values for the lowest and highest usable frequencies.

 

There is more to think about when buying a small sub.

When I get something w/ 500W peak, that´s in fact 250 continuous and 125Watts sine wave (or noise) power,- that´s o.k. as long the sub´s speaker is (very) efficient, but when it isn´t, you won´t hear the sub at all.

If it´s extremely efficient and there´s higher wattage, it probably will be overkill you have to pay for.

 

When I´ve seen the SSV3 vids and Aspen disconnected the sub and it wasn´t recognizable at all, at least on Youtube, I wondered if that is the result of a cheap sub,- and he said he used a 50 bucks sub, isn´t it ?

Anyway, that was a good result for the SSV3 itself IMO,- but WHEN I buy a sub,- I expect something different.

 

Multiple people have commented on how the v.3 did a credible job even w/o a sub.

 

Yes,- and it´s good they did.

I believe it works well standalone w/ many, many keyboard sounds,- but not w/ everything.

I play a lot of sounds which stress speakers to an excess,- deep Moog bass (thru FX) p.ex. or polyphonic ringmodulated and distorted stuff together w/ wah-wah and such.

It´s not always the bread and butter sound only and I do stuff beyond the piano, organ, stringpad and occasional flutey or sawwave synth lead.

 

My guess is that what Aspen means by "useable" is that, paired with a sub, you can set the low pass filter on the sub at 100 hz and get good results. It doesn't make sense to me though, 'cause I would think there would be considerable overlap with a sub at least from 90 hz and above.

 

I´m not sure what "usable" means for Aspen and the SSV3.

It would be great we´d get some info.

As long as I don´t have any, I believe I´d need an active x-over unit to wire it the way I want.

I just only wanted it to sound like I think it should and w/ my gear and not following the other "experts" talk.

 

This is a question that needs to be answered in the owners manual and hopefully in the sales literature being that this system is optimally set-up with a sub.

 

Yep.

 

A.C.

[cphollis]

So, my continuing saga with the SSv3.

 

It's now my go-to rehearsal speaker. More than adequate, and I love the stereo-everywhere. The guitarists are like "WTF? What's up with that small thing?" They keep wondering where all the stereo is coming from. And when I need to, I can turn up pretty loud.

 

I've used it for a few small gigs (without sub). No, it wasn't as great as my high-end amp rig, but it was easy to schlep, sounded decent and filled the room with my sound. Hey, when you're making only $50 a night, why break out the good stuff?

 

The bigger stage gigs, I'm still bringing my major firepower, but for everything else, it's the SSv3. Aspen did right on this.

[RandyFF]

cphollis,

i take it you're using your gear for FOH for the larger gigs? Do you have access to a sub with a built in crossover? would be curious to know what you think about the SSv3 coupled with a sub in a larger setting, and at what frequency it sounds best to you on the xover.

[cphollis]

cphollis,

i take it you're using your gear for FOH for the larger gigs? Do you have access to a sub with a built in crossover? would be curious to know what you think about the SSv3 coupled with a sub in a larger setting, and at what frequency it sounds best to you on the xover.

 

Sorry, wasn't planning to try that anytime soon. For larger gigs, I'd just use the larger pieces, and probably wouldn't mess with a sub.

[cedar]

I've used it for a few small gigs (without sub). No, it wasn't as great as my high-end amp rig, but it was easy to schlep, sounded decent and filled the room with my sound. Hey, when you're making only $50 a night, why break out the good stuff?

 

The bigger stage gigs, I'm still bringing my major firepower, but for everything else, it's the SSv3. Aspen did right on this.

 

Can you be more specific about where you draw the line between the small gigs where the SSv3 works fine, and the larger gigs that require your "major firepower"?

[cphollis]

Still learning, but here's where I'd personally draw the line today.

 

SSv3 works fine: smaller gig, modest-size room, maybe 20-40 patrons, tiny stage or corner of the room, we get loud but only occasionally, FOH is vocals only. SSv3 fills the space nicely.

 

Consider bringing reinforcements: larger room, 100+ patrons, bigger area to set up, playing at healthy volume most of the time, FOH may be vocals only, or full band. Basically, any situation where I need to project. Haven't tried mix-and-match yet.

[AndyW]

Any one heard the Fender Rumble 200 (new) bass combo?

 

SamAsh has a great deal for that today, looks like it could be a decent keyboard amp and sub for SS.

[HAMEGZ]

Still learning, but here's where I'd personally draw the line today.

 

SSv3 works fine: smaller gig, modest-size room, maybe 20-40 patrons, tiny stage or corner of the room, we get loud but only occasionally, FOH is vocals only. SSv3 fills the space nicely.

 

Consider bringing reinforcements: larger room, 100+ patrons, bigger area to set up, playing at healthy volume most of the time, FOH may be vocals only, or full band. Basically, any situation where I need to project. Haven't tried mix-and-match yet.

 

I find my SS works fine in the <75 to 150 club, I am going thru the PA but the band hears me fine.