Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[JohnCorda]

Thanks for responding to me. I'm still figuring out what I want to do for something "new" and well, working. My current amp will probably be fixed as well (I hope) and so I will have that as an option in addition to whatever I get soon. Leaning more towards a Motion Sound KP-500 for the much higher head room and, it's lighter than what I've been using. No rotary but it's stereo. Add in the VentII.

 

The first thing I noticed with the SSv3 was the wattage of 280 vs my current 200w. It just doesn't quite cut it when the other players crank up or it's a loud room, and especially when I play LH bass, it's too much sound being pushed through. So being "forced" to get new audio I wanted to allow for more head room.

 

I did think of getting more than one at your excellent price point, but I would have to also invest in a sub. And would probably still get the Ventilator II because I prefer that over the SK1 sim. Also would rather carry one relatively heavy amp than two or three lighter ones. The one I'm looking at is 48lbs vs my current rig (KBR3D) at 70lbs.

 

At some point in the future, for single keyboard gigs.... well I trust everyone's reviews here and would love to have one. Congrats on all the success and I wish you more.

[Jazzmammal]

John, we all have our preferences as to how to get things done but for me at least, the overall sound quality comes first. This amp has that. I don't know if you've read this whole thread but if not you should. Lots of great comments from guys who are much more technical than me and then Aspen came in around page 12-13 or so and then the gig reports started coming.

 

Several of us including me had big concerns about the small size and power output and it turned out to be King Kong in a little box. It's amazing how this stereo voodoo works for spreading the sound all over the place. This SS fights way above it's weight.

 

This amp is completely different that anything else you've had. A $100 mixer will give you all the ins/outs you need and if you think about it much longer it looks like it will be March before you can get one.

 

Bob

[AndyW]

For Hammond sounds it is unlikely that you will need a sub, or the Vent. Hammond's Leslie effect is great in stereo.

 

I think I've said this twice before but since it is such a long thread I'll say it again--yelling!:

 

IF YOU USE HAMMOND SOUNDS YOU NEED A SPACESTATION!

 

I'm in NC, if you are near you can try it at my studio.

[HAMEGZ]

Aspen, I for one am happy you are concentrating one ONE product, and doing it right.

 

I already have a small rack bag that houses my Samson SM10 so one set of inputs is no issue for my two boards.

 

Also since I found the TC Electronics Bass amp, it is lightweight, and sits the SS at just the right height.

 

But not everybody likes corn beef, so to each his own, and I wish them good luck in finding their reproduction gear that suits their wishes.

 

My ears smile every-time I use my SS.

[AndyW]

I bought a Fender Rumble 200 (15 inch woofer) to round out the sound but realized it did not add anything to the SS sound.

 

The Rumble is a good keyboard amp by itself though; want to buy it?

 

I play bass lines and use pedals too.

 

Honestly, I do wish the SS had another set of inputs and an aux stereo 1/8 in input. I know there are plenty of good little mixers but for small time giggin traveling light is a must. (says the guy with bass pedals at almost all gigs, haha)

[TomKittel]

Honestly, I do wish the SS had another set of inputs and an aux stereo 1/8 in input. I know there are plenty of good little mixers but for small time giggin traveling light is a must. (says the guy with bass pedals at almost all gigs, haha)

 

That's why I bought myself a Casio PX5S. It offers exactly that: an additional set of L/R inputs and an aux stereo 1/8 input for ipod etc. That makes a perfect travelling setup: PX5S + SK1 + SS V3. No mixer needed!

 

;-)

[AnotherScott]

That's why I bought myself a Casio PX5S. It offers exactly that: an additional set of L/R inputs and an aux stereo 1/8 input for ipod etc. That makes a perfect travelling setup: PX5S + SK1 + SS V3. No mixer needed!

That has turned out to be a very convenient feature for me as well, something I didn't see much use for when I bought the keyboards! The Numa Organ and the Yamaha MOX/MOXF are two more boards with auxiliary inputs. If you have multiple boards like this, you can daisy chain from one into the other.

[Raymb1]

Hi Tom. Can a music app such as Band in a Box or iRealPro be plugged into the inputs of the PX 5s the same way as another kybd? Later, Ray

[Aspen]

The first thing I noticed with the SSv3 was the wattage of 280 vs my current 200w. It just doesn't quite cut it when the other players crank up or it's a loud room, and especially when I play LH bass, it's too much sound being pushed through.

 

Wattage can be deceiving (and sometimes I believe it is intended to be deceiving). It certainly does NOT translate to "loudness". Case in point; ever played in a band with a guitar player using a 100 watt Marshall tube amp w/ a double stack? So then, was your 300 watt Roland amp three times louder? Or, could you even HEAR it?

As a rule of thumb; Watts + Speaker efficiency = loudness.

Another rule of thumb; never judge an amp's "loudness" by it's advertised power.

So it's always best to listen and compare "loudness" for yourself, or barring that, listen to someone who has.

The SS V.3 "loudness" is enhanced by it's tri-amped Class D Front amp system rivin a custom high efficiency woofer and 1" id horn (BTW similar to the 147/122 Leslie horn driver), coupled with it's 300 degree dispersion, and it's lifelike 3D stereo sound field. So far, it has pleasantly surprised everyone who has used it live.

And, adding a sub (which also had WIDE dispersion due to the physics of bass frequencies), means your left hand bass will really rock the band.

 

BTW, having just got my PX5s a few weeks ago, I had not yet noticed that extra stereo input feature. So that could be anything from backing tracks to a guitar player's POD or a Hammond SK1.....how cool is that!

Those folks over at Casio are putting out some great stuff at terrific price points. We just downloaded and recorded some of their new piano patches for a new song writer project we are doing at APR studios, and it sounded wonderful! Really top notch!

[TomKittel]

Hi Tom. Can a music app such as Band in a Box or iRealPro be plugged into the inputs of the PX 5s the same way as another kybd? Later, Ray

 

Yep. Just plug in a 1/8 cable from your smartphone to the PX5S. The PX5S has a pair of 1/4 audio inputs for kybds PLUS an 1/8 input for smartphones and such.

[TomKittel]

BTW, having just got my PX5s a few weeks ago, I had not yet noticed that extra stereo input feature. So that could be anything from backing tracks to a guitar player's POD or a Hammond SK1.....how cool is that!

Those folks over at Casio are putting out some great stuff at terrific price points. We just downloaded and recorded some of their new piano patches for a new song writer project we are doing at APR studios, and it sounded wonderful! Really top notch!

 

I second Aspen's assessment of the Casio PX5S. It's an amazing instrument. Really great piano sounds combined with a fantastic weighted keybed. Especially the piano patches by Mike Martin offered in the Casio music forum are killer.

 

I sold my Nord Stage 2 for it. With the proceeds of the Nord sale I bought a used Hammond SK1 AND a Casio PX5S (both like new) and still had some cash down for a Spacestation V3! In my view the Nord Stage is heavily overpriced but it seems to keep it's used price... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cut it for me. I wasted hours by hours in downloading tons of Nord piano samples but none of them ever sounded right to my ears when played live with a band. In contrast the PX5S pianos simply sound right and the keybed is a dream to play.

 

I never was happier than with my new PX5S + SK1 keyboard setup. Highly recommended. BTW don't let the PX5S fool you in a musicstore showroom. It has soo much more to offer than what you can see on first view. Truth be told, a little while ago I already had a PX5S for testing and I sent it back because I didn't find the time to tap it's full potential then. Shame on me!

 

Can't wait to get my hands on a Spacestation.

 

[AndyW]

My Hammond XK2 had extra inputs but the SK line is stripped down and lacks them.

 

Are there any good passive little mixers or do those cut the signal too much?

[Raymb1]

Thanks Tom

[16251]

... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cut it for me. I wasted hours by hours in downloading tons of Nord piano samples but none of them ever sounded right to my ears when played live with a band.

 

I agree! (To the naysayers who know my feelings. I have every right to bring up this issue when the opportunity presents itself.)

[HAMEGZ]

... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cuter sounded right to my ears when played live with a band.

 

I agree! (To the naysayers who know my feelings. I have every right to bring up this issue when the opportunity presents itself.)

 

Yes you do have the right, but is this necessarily the thread to do it in? :idk

[TomKittel]

My Hammond XK2 had extra inputs but the SK line is stripped down and lacks them.

 

Are there any good passive little mixers or do those cut the signal too much?

 

I have positive experiences with the Mackie 402 VLZ3/4. No audible signal cut. The tape input can also be used for stereo keys so that it offers a total of three stereo input pairs. Very handy footprint. Should fit on top of any keyboard. The only drawback is the unavoidable wall mart.

[16251]

... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cuter sounded right to my ears when played live with a band.

 

I agree! (To the naysayers who know my feelings. I have every right to bring up this issue when the opportunity presents itself.)

 

Yes you do have the right, but is this necessarily the thread to do it in? :idk

This thread has 24 pages, please make sure to call out all the other people who got off topic here. BTW, I only added a thumbs up to another wise man's post.

[HAMEGZ]

... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cuter sounded right to my ears when played live with a band.

 

I agree! (To the naysayers who know my feelings. I have every right to bring up this issue when the opportunity presents itself.)

 

Yes you do have the right, but is this necessarily the thread to do it in? :idk

This thread has 24 pages, please make sure to call out all the other people who got off topic here. BTW, I only added a thumbs up to another wise man's post.

 

Some people jumps off a bridge and your going to follow suit?

Wasn't "calling you out" and don't want to argue with you,but to use "every opportunity", as you stated, to present your disdain for Nord could well be served in another thread. There is a difference in some of the OT posts, as you put it and using this thread to bash a product.

[16251]

... nevertheless the Nord pianos and the 76 weighted keybed never cuter sounded right to my ears when played live with a band.

 

I agree! (To the naysayers who know my feelings. I have every right to bring up this issue when the opportunity presents itself.)

 

Yes you do have the right, but is this necessarily the thread to do it in? :idk

This thread has 24 pages, please make sure to call out all the other people who got off topic here. BTW, I only added a thumbs up to another wise man's post.

 

Some people jumps off a bridge and your going to follow suit?

Wasn't "calling you out" and don't want to argue with you,but to use "every opportunity", as you stated, to present your disdain for Nord could well be served in another thread. There is a difference in some of the OT posts, as you put it and using this thread to bash a product.

 

 

damn, you just have to much time on your hands.

[AndyW]

My Hammond XK2 had extra inputs but the SK line is stripped down and lacks them.

 

Are there any good passive little mixers or do those cut the signal too much?

 

I have positive experiences with the Mackie 402 VLZ3/4. No audible signal cut. The tape input can also be used for stereo keys so that it offers a total of three stereo input pairs. Very handy footprint. Should fit on top of any keyboard. The only drawback is the unavoidable wall mart.

 

I want to avoid the wall wart so does anyone use passive mixers like this one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitMix4

?

[J. Dan]

The first thing I noticed with the SSv3 was the wattage of 280 vs my current 200w. It just doesn't quite cut it when the other players crank up or it's a loud room, and especially when I play LH bass, it's too much sound being pushed through.

 

Wattage can be deceiving (and sometimes I believe it is intended to be deceiving). It certainly does NOT translate to "loudness".

 

It's been discussed on other speaker/amp threads, but warrants further discussion due to the unique design.

 

First, every speaker has an efficiency, usually rated in it's SPL measured in dB at a 1 M distance with a 1 W input. Consumer, car, and studio speakers usually range in the mid 80s to low 90s. PA and MI speakers can range from mid 90s to over 100. In fact some horn drivers can get up to 112dB 1W/1M range. From that point, assuming the speaker can do something with it, every time you double the power you get a 3dB increase. So if you want 120dB out of a speaker rated 99, to get 21 dB over the 1W input...double it 7 times.....128W. 2 caveats: it has to handle the power, it has to have enough mechanical dispersion to turn that power into sound. Just because a speaker can handle power doesn't mean it can do anything with it. Maybe it can handle 1000W (meaning it won't burn up), but after 200W it's just turning the rest into heat.

 

Another thing to consider is dispersion and distance.....and this is where my curiosity comes into play with this design. Conventional speakers, the sound level decreases 6dB every time you double the distance. So in the previous example of 120dB at 1M would be 114dB at 2M, 108dB at 4M, 102dB at 8M, etc. Line arrays have a cylindrical dispersion, instead of spherical, so they attenuate at a rate of 3dB every time you double distance.

 

I suspect between the side wall reflections and some of the DSP going on, this design results in more sound making it to your ears than a conventional design. While it would be interesting to get Aspen's explanation, I suspect the best answer is the one he's already given - you just have to hear it.

[Analogaddict]

My SpaceStation has arrived..! I'll be back with a review as soon as I have some time to try it out.

[Daddyg3042]

My Hammond XK2 had extra inputs but the SK line is stripped down and lacks them.

That's a really good idea. I still gig regularly with my XK2, and probably will till it dies. I have 3 channels in my current amp, so have never even considered using the XK2s ins. Moving to the SS, since I already have a small mixer, I just thought I'd use that. Rig is an XK2, PC3 and sometimes the Voyager.

 

I'd love not to mess with the mixer when I'm just using the XK and PC3, but I can't get past a problem I see, and that is; if signal chain is PC3 to XK to Vent to SS, there's not a way for the PC3 to bypass the Vent, unless I'd use the bypass switch on the Vent, and that's not going to work for me. Is there another way to do this?

[Aspen]

I want to avoid the wall wart so does anyone use passive mixers like this one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitMix4

?

 

My 2 cents, and worth exactly what you pay for it!

 

I went to that site and read the specs on your passive mixer. The only one you need to pay attention to is this one: "insertion Loss: 12dB (typical)". Ooops, as expected...no gain, more pain.

 

That means it sucks gain, and this happens with all it's faders FULL UP(w/o any passive gain reduction). Trust me, 12dB is not a small amount of loss, you will hear it and you feel it!

 

BUT if your KB has a lot of headroom (technically speaking that is called "poop") you might be able to live with it. The SS V.3 has a pretty sensitive input stage so probably it can recover much of this 12 dB insertion loss (unlike most power amps). However the noise floor will rise +12dB no matter if the SS can recover the -12db loss.

 

IMHO, a passive mixer is to be avoided for these reasons. But remember my perspective is delivering my SS V.3 the best signal possible (so consider the source here, I am predujiced).

 

Of course they can "work", but certainly there will be some trade off, and hopefully gain loss is not the only thing lost (I suspect some FR as well, and probably some dynamics).

 

I also notice output impedance is lowered as well..not a bad thing in this case...so maybe a xfmr inside? But again, at what cost? What happens to the dynamics, much less the FR with a xfmr? (basically it's lots of wire...like a really long cable!). Exactly how much loss will happen w/ this passive mixer? That will depend on the KB's output stage, some are hotter than others.

 

A "powered" (active) mixer has many advantages, foremost being no loss of signal. It may even improve the way your KB drives an amp, especially a SS V.3. It also may add a mic input or backing track inputs useful for those smaller gigs, or just rehearsals. I like the Alesis mic pres in the Multimix series, and you will see me using them in my videos. I also like the hall reverb FX if I add a mic or maybe even on a AP. (believe me, I need all the talent enhancement I can get!).

 

Here are a few several small format mixers (albeit w/ wall warts) on the SW site I like:

 

@ $90 - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PowerMix3

 

@ $149 - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MM8USBFX

 

[Aspen]

I suspect between the side wall reflections and some of the DSP going on, this design results in more sound making it to your ears than a conventional design. While it would be interesting to get Aspen's explanation, I suspect the best answer is the one he's already given - you just have to hear it.

 

Excellent review of speaker efficiency physics. Of course I'd only add the 6dB increased efficiency of a mid horn over a cone is offset by it's more narrow dispersion. Transducers like mid horns, mag tweeters, cone woofers all have various strong and weak points, that's why we use them all!

 

And while it's fairly easy to make comparative measurements of conventional speakers, in mono, objectively comparing any of these to an unconventional speaker like our SS, in stereo, is very difficult (if not impossible...apples and watermelons).

 

Try to imagine a poly cone rubber mounted 8" woofer with extended LF AND HF, coupled with a mid horn driver, a neo magnetic tweeter and a high power 6.5" full range side (L-R) driver positioned out of phase, then DSP filtered to smooth all that out in a super compact cabinet to be driven by four class D amps with a 180 watt tri-amp front (L+R) system.

 

Of course you can not possibly imagine that, it has never existed before!

 

So I must agree with your conclusion; you just have to hear it.

 

When you do hear it, I think you will agree with those who have; Center Point Stereo is just different (very different), than anything you have ever heard before. In other words, it is "incomparable".

[AndyW]

I want to avoid the wall wart so does anyone use passive mixers like this one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitMix4

?

 

My 2 cents, and worth exactly what you pay for it!

 

I went to that site and read the specs on your passive mixer. The only one you need to pay attention to is this one: "insertion Loss: 12dB (typical)". Ooops, as expected...no gain, more pain.

 

That means it sucks gain, and this happens with all it's faders FULL UP(w/o any passive gain reduction). Trust me, 12dB is not a small amount of loss, you will hear it and you feel it!

 

BUT if your KB has a lot of headroom (technically speaking that is called "poop") you might be able to live with it. The SS V.3 has a pretty sensitive input stage so probably it can recover much of this 12 dB insertion loss (unlike most power amps). However the noise floor will rise +12dB no matter if the SS can recover the -12db loss.

 

IMHO, a passive mixer is to be avoided for these reasons. But remember my perspective is delivering my SS V.3 the best signal possible (so consider the source here, I am predujiced).

 

Of course they can "work", but certainly there will be some trade off, and hopefully gain loss is not the only thing lost (I suspect some FR as well, and probably some dynamics).

 

I also notice output impedance is lowered as well..not a bad thing in this case...so maybe a xfmr inside? But again, at what cost? What happens to the dynamics, much less the FR with a xfmr? (basically it's lots of wire...like a really long cable!). Exactly how much loss will happen w/ this passive mixer? That will depend on the KB's output stage, some are hotter than others.

 

A "powered" (active) mixer has many advantages, foremost being no loss of signal. It may even improve the way your KB drives an amp, especially a SS V.3. It also may add a mic input or backing track inputs useful for those smaller gigs, or just rehearsals. I like the Alesis mic pres in the Multimix series, and you will see me using them in my videos. I also like the hall reverb FX if I add a mic or maybe even on a AP. (believe me, I need all the talent enhancement I can get!).

 

Here are a few several small format mixers (albeit w/ wall warts) on the SW site I like:

 

@ $90 - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PowerMix3

 

@ $149 - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MM8USBFX

 

Thanks, I guess a wall wart is in my future.

[AnotherScott]

I guess a wall wart is in my future.

You could probably velcro a small power strip inside the SpaceStation, leaving the mixer's wall-wart and a short cord for the amp's own power permanently plugged in, to simplify setup. (Maybe there's even a way to leave the mixer itself permanently velcro'd in place.) One thing I've never seen, though, is a power strip which, itself, has a removable power cord, which would be handy for this kind of thing.

 

A nice possible enhancement for a future version of the SS--since it will so often need a mixer and there will definitely not be any mixer function built in--would be an auxiliary AC outlet for powering the mixer.

[DanL]

One of those 3 into 1 outlets could be mounted with the wall wart, and just plug an extension cord into the 3:1. It doesn't have to be a power strip.

Something like this, I use one of these hanging out of the back of my rack with a short cord on it to plug in my keyboard power cables.

 

http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/827214/827214003968lg.jpg

[Dglavko]

I want to avoid the wall wart so does anyone use passive mixers like this one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SplitMix4

?

 

My 2 cents, and worth exactly what you pay for it!

 

I went to that site and read the specs on your passive mixer. The only one you need to pay attention to is this one: "insertion Loss: 12dB (typical)". Ooops, as expected...no gain, more pain.

 

That means it sucks gain, and this happens with all it's faders FULL UP(w/o any passive gain reduction). Trust me, 12dB is not a small amount of loss, you will hear it and you feel it!

Agree 100% I bought one of those mixers and it did just that. Unuseable really.

[AndyW]

I also see you like elevating it, I like that too, and in "band scenarios" usually a good idea. But as you may also notice that reduces bass response, so it's a trade off.

However, and IMHO when playing in those larger bands, elevating the SS on top of a medium sized powered sub (150-200 watt w/ a 10"or 12" woofer) and set for 125Hz limit, should give you more "poop" before distortion in future, and add a floor of sonic support that will surely satisfy someone who's reference is a real Leslie, or a real 9' grand....and you will enjoy it even more!

 

Aspen, great amp- didn't know what i was missing all these years playing in mono until I started playing live using my SS w/ true stereo! Definitely a game changer ...

 

I have a question regarding your comment using a sub along with it ... I have the SS and a powered sub (I'm using my Presonus Temblor T10 250W) and was gonna start bringing the sub with me for bigger venues (150+ seats or so) and outdoor gigs. The Temblor has an adjustable crossover built in along with a HP filter option and outputs for left/right to send to mains. Do you recommend plugging my sound source (keys) directly into the left/right inputs of the sub and then using the built in crossover along with the HP filter and sending the outputs to the SS or should I be hooking it up the other way around (go INTO the SS first and then out to my subwoofer using the SUB OUT to my subwoofer)? I'm assuming I should do it the way I have been by going into the sub first, but would like to know the proper way to do it ... I seem to recall on some of your videos it seems like you may be doing it the reverse (going INTO the SS and hooking up the sub to the SUB OUT) ...

 

Sorry if this is elementary but I just want to get the most out of the SS V3 ...

 

Thanks again!

 

Chris, will the T10 allow use of multiple inputs at once?