Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Raymb1]

{So those of us who ordered early this month won't get one til mid December? Or is it the 3rd run that is behind schedule and the 2nd is on time?}

 

I talked to Sweetwater a couple of days ago and they're expecting a shipment to go out the 3rd week of Nov. I hope that holds true. Ray

[16251]

{So those of us who ordered early this month won't get one til mid December? Or is it the 3rd run that is behind schedule and the 2nd is on time?}

 

I talked to Sweetwater a couple of days ago and they're expecting a shipment to go out the 3rd week of Nov. I hope that holds true. Ray

I just spoke with SW. I placed my order 9/30 and was told recently mine would be shipping. Now they tell me it's around Xmas. And the kicker -- I'm first on the list.

 

I originally didn't mind waiting to read reviews, etc. now I'm not so happy

[Raymb1]

 

 

Only one wrinkle now; getting more delivered! Sweetwater has a ton of backorders and have mostly bought out the entire 2nd run to fill it. Then today the factory informed me they are running a bit behind schedule and will most likely ship the next run November 21-25th. Then it's 3 week on the water and another week to Sweetwater...so the next V.3 units will not hit SW until December 16th...just in time for Christmas, but not soon enough for me!

Being over sold on a hit new product is what many tell me is a "premium problem", but it's a problem just the same!

 

So those of us who ordered early this month won't get one til mid December? Or is it the 3rd run that is behind schedule and the 2nd is on time?

 

It must be the 3rd run that's later. I ordered mine on October 16, got a call from Sweetwater yesterday saying they were expecting to receive the next shipment in early-to-mid November.

 

 

 

After reading Aspen's post again it looks like those of who ordered in the last few weeks won't be getting delivery until Dec. Ray

[Josh Paxton]

Damn you all. I held out as long as I could, but I just pulled the trigger. Now looking forward to December like... well, like a kid waiting for Christmas.

[Raymb1]

Welcome to the club! Ray

[16251]

Hey, I'm next!

[cphollis]

Spent a few hours last night with mine. Here is what I wrote up.

 

More as I'm motivated ...

 

-- Chuck

[Jazzmammal]

A really good professional review Chuck. Since it's here in the forum I assume Keyboard Mag knows about this. Not to step on Fortner's toes, this should be published in the magazine, it could be in conjunction with his review if he decides to do one.

 

Bob

[Doerfler]

Spent a few hours last night with mine. Here is what I wrote up.

 

More as I'm motivated ...

 

-- Chuck

 

thanks for that, Chuck. Very professional looking blog.

[Dglavko]

I ordered mine late September at which point were back ordered to mid October and got in hand (through customs and all) Oct 21

[Brettymike]

Yes , great review Thanks Chuck!.

 

A couple of years ago , I built my own "Holy Grail" stereo beast of a speaker for my keyboard or anything.

It's a 800+ watt rms SPHERICAL shaped speaker cabinet with 14 drivers. Sounds absolutely awesome with sound all around - and the best I have ever heard myself at a gig .

But she ended up weighing an absolute TON - and awkward as hell to lift at 550mm diameter , it just about killed me lifting it around for it's first and last 2 gigs , now it stays at home. Was a great fun project to build and use , but not shift .

 

Brett

[RandyFF]

Yes , great review Thanks Chuck!.

 

A couple of years ago , I built my own "Holy Grail" stereo beast of a speaker for my keyboard or anything.

It's a 800+ watt rms SPHERICAL shaped speaker cabinet with 14 drivers. Sounds absolutely awesome with sound all around - and the best I have ever heard myself at a gig .

But she ended up weighing an absolute TON - and awkward as hell to lift at 550mm diameter , it just about killed me lifting it around for it's first and last 2 gigs , now it stays at home. Was a great fun project to build and use , but not shift .

 

Brett

 

 

Pictures please!

[Al Coda]

Spent a few hours last night with mine. Here is what I wrote up.

 

More as I'm motivated ...

 

-- Chuck

 

Thx for your "in depth" report !

Nice blog b.t.w., I enjoyed reading the articles.

 

A.C.

 

[Brettymike]

Yes , great review Thanks Chuck!.

 

A couple of years ago , I built my own "Holy Grail" stereo beast of a speaker for my keyboard or anything.

It's a 800+ watt rms SPHERICAL shaped speaker cabinet with 14 drivers. Sounds absolutely awesome with sound all around - and the best I have ever heard myself at a gig .

But she ended up weighing an absolute TON - and awkward as hell to lift at 550mm diameter , it just about killed me lifting it around for it's first and last 2 gigs , now it stays at home. Was a great fun project to build and use , but not shift .

 

Brett

 

 

Pictures please!

 

I will see what I can do , be prepared to be shocked .

 

Brett

[cphollis]

Thanks, guys, for the nice comments on the review. My goal was to share what I would want to know about the unit as a keyboard player. I wanted to make sure that everyone knew where I was coming from with my comments. Too few decent reviews out there these days

[Aspen]

So those of us who ordered early this month won't get one til mid December? Or is it the 3rd run that is behind schedule and the 2nd is on time?

I am sorry to say this folks, but the facts are; the 1st run was completely sold out upon delivery to SW.

The 2nd run "was" due to hit Sweetwater late November, and there "were" available units not yet sold. But, now (unfortunately) it appears the 2nd will likely hit SW sometime between Dec 17th and 27th.

And believe me, nobody is more hurt or saddened by this delay than me. But you may wonder "why", and I don't blame you if you are angry.

Perhaps if I give you a glimpse into my world, you may cut me some slack; you see, there are 100s of parts that all need to meet initial QC upon receipt to the factory and all of them need to be certified and on hand before we start the build. If one component fails to pass, and/or is back ordered from our suppliers. then obviously we can not start the build.

Whenever we start up a new product production we are working with new components and vendors, and sometimes you get a dud.

In this SS V.3 case the primary speaker components come from Eminence in Kentucky, they are made months in advance and imported...and they represent about 40% ($) of the total BOM (bill of materials). So that means the other 60% mostly come from local Chinese vendors. But Chinese component factories seldom build parts before they get an order (so not much "off shelf" inventory). This is one way the Chinese factories keep their prices low (but deliveries long).

However, if we get just one bad component, the assembly can not start.

IE: in the 1st run our Chinese made tweeter failed upon assembly (NOTE: it passed initial inspection QC months earlier). So, then we have to quickly find a suitable replacement, place a PO, and then new vendor still has to make them. That bad lot of tweeters in the first run set me back nearly 8 weeks!

And preceding that tweeter drama in the 1st run, the entire shipment of 8" CX2008 specially built woofers from the USA, heart of the V.3, tilted and slipped off the pallet as they were being unloading at the Honk Kong dock and fell into the water...totally ruined. So Eminence USA had to schedule a special a production, buy parts, and schedule another run of these...that took 6 weeks. Then another 4 weeks to get them to the factory near Hong Kong. That set us back a total of 10 weeks!

Now consider this; every time I start a run I put my cash out there in advance. If everything goes just perfect (ha!), then I do not see any return until I build it, ship it, sells it and wait for payment.This is average a 120-150 day cycle, but ONLY if NOTHING goes wrong. Then you hit a 10 week delay on woofers followed by an 8 week delay on tweeters and you begin to see why I have so little hair left.

So I only mention this because few end users realize how hard and expensive it is to both invent and then produce ANYTHING these days. And also to contrast this 3-4 week delay on the 2nd run with the 3-4 MONTH delays I endured with the 1st run. So from my perspective, we are improving.

Now here's some small good news; the 3rd run is already in process and seems to be slightly ahead of schedule...things tend to go smother each time we build these. Also, based on the great response and quick sell thru, I have increased the 3rd run quantity by 20%. It was originally due to hit in mid February, now it looks like it may be late January. That should get us caught up and ahead of the game.

Of course, the prudent thing would be to start the 4th run NOW, as this is a 120-150 day cycle. But sadly I am not made of money, and I do not believe in borrowing from banks, even at today's low interest rates. I spent 40 years growing GT and was always in debt to the banks. So back in '08 when I sold off GT and paid everything off (along with my shop and recording studios), my wife and I vowed NEVER to go back into debt again! I am debt free and own all my assets (and my soul), free and clear, and will keep it that way.

The good news we have a hit product, the bad news is it will take time to catch up to the demand. But I assure you this, I am committed to maintaining both quality and service, which means a SLOW (but safe) growth pattern. This is not my first BBQ, so by this time next year there should be no back orders and we will be meeting the demand more precisely with adequate supply.

[miden]

..........................The good news we have a hit product, the bad news is it will take time to catch up to the demand. But I assure you this, I am committed to maintaining both quality and service, which means a SLOW (but safe) growth pattern. This is not my first BBQ, so by this time next year there should be no back orders and we will be meeting the demand more precisely with adequate supply.

Perhaps you should have thought of this earlier maybe the 50+ pages of free advertising here have mixed blessings.

[Aspen]

Thanks, guys, for the nice comments on the review. My goal was to share what I would want to know about the unit as a keyboard player. I wanted to make sure that everyone knew where I was coming from with my comments. Too few decent reviews out there these days

 

I have to chime in with the rest here Chuck...EXCELLENT review, REALLY fair and balanced! (although your very kind review of me made me blush!)

If I were Keyboard magazine, I'd just print it "as is". And while I am open to a review by KM, I much more appreciate (and believe) one coming from a guy with "skin in the game", after all I made the V.3 for guys like you!

Frankly I am amazed (and pleasantly surprised) by the lengths (and expense) you and so many others here have gone to for that "perfect amp". In my former life I was pretty submerged with guitar amps, specifically TUBE guitar amps!

But these last few years as I have devoted all my energy into making that perfect keyboard amp, I wondered if there was a choir out there like my tube guitar amp community...would anyone "get it"? But these last weeks on this forum, culminated by your excellent review, has eliminated ALL doubt..you guys are AT LEAST as obsessed as my fellow guitar geeks!

 

Regarding your sonic preference for those $3700 Fulcrum speakers, I am neither surprised nor deflated that you find these superior to my little SS V.3...I would be more surprised if you didn't! As you say, it's just physics when it comes to speaker quality. And of course if price were no consideration (as it most certainly WAS with the SS V.3) I would choose to use those too. After all, my patent is not about the quality of speaker, but rather the unique capability of CPS system design. CPS works just as well with ANY speaker component....and I could easily build one using your Fulcrum as the Front speaker (and would relish the opportunity!)

 

But in order to get CPS a beach head, I wanted a box everyone could afford. Kinda like selling color TV into a black and white world...I needed to start small.

In fact, I tried making "big-uns", but they were heavy and expensive (and didn't sell). (see the original SFX Catalog in my archive section of the Aspen & Associates website). The SFX E1 encoder was a 1RU device that did the L/R to L+R/L-R signal conversion, that fed any stereo amp, which in turn powered your favorite speaker sitting on top of my side firing S12 (2x12" spks) or S15 (2x15" spks).

 

I even had a one piece monster SFX cab w/ a 15" woofer + massive 3" mid range compression driver thru a big radial horn system using ultra high end McCaully components. That one I made for Ray Manzarek w/ a 1000 watt per channel QSC PA amp. Flat out LOUD, w/ amazing clarity and headroom as you might imagine. But WOW, very heavy and kinda pricy (don't ask). But of course, this had the same "3D stereo everywhere" effect that no traditional spaced pair of any speaker system can deliver. Ray LOVED that system which he used on what would (sadly) be his last tour w/ the 21st Century DOORS. (NOTE; Ray returned it after the tour, and I still have it!)

Now for my next act...I'd like to do a CPS keyboard rig with all tube amps...like my personal CPS guitar rig at APR. Tubes and keyboards were made for each other, because a good tube amp design has ZERO dynamic distortion...so that "real" 9' grand piano tone you are seeking is absolutely possible, and can be done in CPS...no problem. The compression you mentioned in the V.3 when you are pounding out the big note is unavoidable in a solid state amps, although it is much reduced with Class D amps as we see in the SS V.3. But seriously folks, nothing sounds as musical as a tube amp (and I prove it every day at APR).

[jimkost2002]

Aspen, please do build a CPS rig with all tube amps! I'd be in sonic nirvana having one that's a product your design and engineering genius!

I'm in the unfortunate number stil waiting on the December Sweetwater shipment for CPS 3.....

Thank you again for creating a product that FINALLY meets a performIng keyboardist's needs.......

[cphollis]

I'm more interested in Aspen's circuitry and his side-firing accessory. I've already got plenty of equipment that makes big watts and moves air well. What I don't have is the secret decoder ring for L+R, L-R, nor a cabinet designed for side firing.

 

For example, the 1RU and his S12 (2x12" side firing) with a pair of QSCs or RCFs or perhaps my Fulcrum Acoustics on top -- well, that would be interesting to me. A bit heavy and large, but for bigger gigs -- that would do the trick.

 

Just to be clear, the idea of a tube amp that's a little beefier than the SS v.3 would also be *very* interesting. Weight might be an issue, though -- the current SS v.3 is about as heavy as I'd like to go.

 

I agree with the premise that tube amps are extremely musical, and current keyboard digital amp designs compensate by throwing lots of "marketing watts" at the problem.

[Joe Muscara]

Aspen, you rule. Thanks for all that you do. This speaker has definitely given me GAS. I just need someone to give me money. Also, the tube amp thing sounds great too. Would we be able to overdrive it for those times when we want that tone (Wurly, Hammond, etc.)?

[Markay]

Very informative and well written review Chuck.

 

I agree nothing beats tubes but weight is the killer. I switched from all tube combo guitar amp to the same amp with separate head and cabinet to cut down the weight. I would rather carry two 16kg pieces than one 28kg combo - particularly up more than one flight of stairs.

 

If there ever is to be a tube version of the SS maybe a separate head and cab would be the way to go.

[DanL]

Aspen, no anger- it is what it is... just bummed I won't have this speaker in my hands for a string of gigs coming up that would really benefit from it!

[AnotherScott]

The compression you mentioned in the V.3 when you are pounding out the big note is unavoidable in a solid state amps, although it is much reduced with Class D amps as we see in the SS V.3.

I'm curious about how level affects amp performance (whether due to compression or other factors). If you ran a hot signal into the amp and set the amp's own volume level at half, and compared that to running a weaker signal into the amp and setting the amp's own volume level at full, would one of those scenarios tend to sound better than the other, assuming the final output is identical in volume? Or is the final output all that matters, regardless of how you get there?

[B. J. Love]

Aspen, no anger- it is what it is... just bummed I won't have this speaker in my hands for a string of gigs coming up that would really benefit from it!

Same here. But there may be a little frustration with Sweetwater. Look over the postings here and you see that we got some widely varying responses to basically the same question, asked within a day or two. Some reps seemed determined to hold out hope, others to tamp down expectations. Aspen has given us all what we wanted from Sweetwater: a simple, honest answer.

[cphollis]

I tried different gain structures. There's a difference between the input stage distorting (line too hot) vs. the amplifier/speakers compressing and shaping the tone. The question is how the amplifier behaves at the limits, especially during sharp transients.

 

Tube amps do a lot better job than digital amps. Digital amps can be OK, but you have to throw massive watts at the problem so they can handle those sharp transients, or at least what I've found.

 

Example: some people scoff that the QSC K series are rated at 1000w peak. Well, when you're crashing down on a full piano chord at volume, that's a transient. The FA12ac units are rated at 2000w each. That keeps you out of trouble

[AnotherScott]

Example: some people scoff that the QSC K series are rated at 1000w peak. Well, when you're crashing down on a full piano chord at volume, that's a transient. The FA12ac units are rated at 2000w each. That keeps you out of trouble

The QSC K series are rated at 2000w peak, 1000w continuous. The part of that that to scoff at is that the 1000w continuous comes from using a stereo amp that is rated 500 w/ch, thereby allocating 500 watts to the woofer and 500 watts to the tweeter. Realistically, in that setup, 500 watts to the woofer and, say, 100 watts to the tweeter would effectively yield the same performance. So yeah, its 1000 watts, which sounds impressive as a marketing point on paper, but 400 watts of it is useless.

[Reezekeys]

The QSC K series are rated at 2000w peak, 1000w continuous. The part of that that to scoff at is that the 1000w continuous comes from using a stereo amp that is rated 500 w/ch, thereby allocating 500 watts to the woofer and 500 watts to the tweeter. Realistically, in that setup, 500 watts to the woofer and, say, 100 watts to the tweeter would effectively yield the same performance. So yeah, its 1000 watts, which sounds impressive as a marketing point on paper, but 400 watts of it is useless.

I remember reading that QSC found it cheaper to put two identical 500 watt amp modules, rather than two different wattage modules. Of course 500 watts to a horn is overkill, but it certainly gives one peace of mind that you will never send a clipped signal into that horn! I'm guessing they use their internal DSP to maintain the signal sent to the HF amp at a reasonable level otherwise QSC would be replacing a whole lot of horns!

[Aspen]

The compression you mentioned in the V.3 when you are pounding out the big note is unavoidable in a solid state amps, although it is much reduced with Class D amps as we see in the SS V.3.

I'm curious about how level affects amp performance (whether due to compression or other factors). If you ran a hot signal into the amp and set the amp's own volume level at half, and compared that to running a weaker signal into the amp and setting the amp's own volume level at full, would one of those scenarios tend to sound better than the other, assuming the final output is identical in volume? Or is the final output all that matters, regardless of how you get there?

 

It really doesn't matter how you get to the "ceiling" of an amp unless you overdrive the front inputs before you hit "tilt" on the amps' max power range.

 

What I was talkng about was what happens to a SS amp just before and during MAX power, as you get those high AP transients. Tubes will just handle that better with a softer clip, but also they are far more accurate (dynamically speaking) at at lower levels too (tubes have ZERO inherent dynamic distortion, SS devices are LOADED with it. Just compare a U67 mic to the evolved U87, or a AKG C12 to the evolved 414...I rest my case).

That's why I used the newer style Class D amps (which kinda compress more than distort), and handel he dynamic content a bit more accurately. But even more importantly, I took the tri amp approach which greatly reduces IM ("intermodulation distortion" where bass note clip on the dynamic peaks and so in turn clip all frequencies). That's why my little big amp surprises everyone with it's SPL (which I still need to get accurately measured for you...working on that folks).

 

But there are also optimal "noise" trade offs to consider in this discussion; I would always want to keep my KB and mixer signal relatively "hot" from start to finish in the signal chain, and so have lower S/N ratios by the time I hit the amp. Crankling an amp all the way up will give you more noise (hiss), so if you keep the signals hot going into the amp's input stage, and thereby running the amps lower, it reduces the hiss levels.

But too hot of a mixer line level signal can clip the input stage of the SS V.3, so caution! I had to make it more sensitive than a typical power amp to accommodate a KB output, but still able to inhale a mixer output. You ear are you best guide here, just try it and see (I mean, hear)

[Reezekeys]

The compression you mentioned in the V.3 when you are pounding out the big note is unavoidable in a solid state amps, although it is much reduced with Class D amps as we see in the SS V.3. But seriously folks, nothing sounds as musical as a tube amp (and I prove it every day at APR).

Not to doubt you but I've always heard that tube amps compress naturally as they approach saturation. I would think that the transients from a dynamic acoustic piano sample set would need a pretty powerful tube amp to be able to play loudly while having headroom available for transients. And powerful tube amps means large power transformers which could mean added weight. Not to rain on any parade and I'd be happy to be educated more on this topic, if not proven wrong completely!