Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, niacin said:

If 2 boards is ok I'm back at go with the Vox and use the split to play one internal sound and one from the external board/module.  

 

On the topic of the 2-board solution, one of the lightweight rigs I've gigged with recently has been the CK61 paired with a Fantom-07, because while the Fantom-0 is versatile enough to do almost anything one would need, I just can't enjoy its pianos/EPs (from the perspective of sound or action), and the CK61 is one of the lightest boards that gives me better piano/EP playability than the Fantom-07.

 

I could see using the Vox the same way... it's about 3.5 lbs heavier (for the same 61, or a bit more for the 73 that you can't get on the CK), but as discussed above, arguably better sounding/feeling for piano/EP. I've also considered going the other direction and pairing the Roland with my Casio CT-S500... I like that piano at least as much as the CK61, though I prefer the CK61's Rhodes. But even though I'm focussed on pianos/EPs for this usage, I still end up using the board for other things as well. So I think I'd put the main pros and cons this way...

 

CK61 - most versatile overall, most "fun" in terms of real-time interactions, and most convenient for fast patch selection (banks of 8 buttons for patch recall, with a screen that tells you what sound is under which button, obviating the desire for the iPhone/iPad adjunct I'd want for patch selection with the other two).

 

CT-S500 - lightest, doubles as keytar, and I prefer playing piano on it over the CK. It also has rhythm patterns which can be useful, though I also have that in the Fantom-0. Similarly, it's the only one where you can pan your bass sounds to one side, but again, I can do that on the Roland (actually even better, it has assignable outs). And on the other side of that equation, it is clearly by far the worst of the three for organ, but again, I've got that covered in the Fantom-0. Fewest real-time controls of the three, which might prompt people to put the board in a different category from the others right there.

 

Vox - probably the best feeling and best sounding overall... but the least versatile (e.g. in splits/layers, MIDI). It's also the only one of the three that can't run on batteries and has no speakers. Heaviest of these lightweights, but also most solid build. Also, out of production. 😉

[AnotherScott]

55 minutes ago, niacin said:

If 2 boards is ok I'm back at go with the Vox and use the split to play one internal sound and one from the external board/module. Lightweight with the vibe and feel of a real instrument and I’m really not seeing the alternatives to the Vox.  But mostly, like Drawback, I think we're going round in circles. 

 

Maybe a Numa X piano 73 with an iPad for the extra sounds would do the trick?  I don't own one but reviews give the Rhodes a big thumbs up and the iPad integration is brilliant.

 

Looking at the iPad as your source of extra sounds/functionalities is something else that can tilt us back to the CK61. It's unusual among most of the boards we're discussing in that, like the Numa, it actually is well-designed for iPad integration... not a bit of a kludge as it is on so many of these popular EP boards (Vox, Seven, SV2, Grandstage, even any Nord short of a Stage).

 

CNPCNP, I know you were disappointed in the Rhodes on the CK you tried, and I never played the 88 myself, but at least on the 61, playing with the Velocity Offset and Velocity Depth makes a big difference on pianos/EPs, and may be why you weren't hearing all the velocity layers you expected, or not having it respond the way you wanted.

 

 

[niacin]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

CNPCNP, I know you were disappointed in the Rhodes on the CK you tried, and I never played the 88 myself, but at least on the 61, playing with the Velocity Offset and Velocity Depth makes a big difference on pianos/EPs, and may be why you weren't hearing all the velocity layers you expected, or not having it respond the way you wanted

 

if you do give it another spin try dialing in the amp sims and drive, they make a big difference to the sound.  No idea how you get the CK to play/feel/look like a 'real' instrument though, it's a budget computer with a keyboard attached no matter how I look at it.

[D. Gauss]

what cc# are you using to map lowest drawbar (16') to VB3m?  i assumed the ones for the reface yc would work (cc102) but they don't. (so much for compatibility across platforms.

 

nor do CC 18, 77 or 111 as listed in the ck61 manual.  any insight appreciated.

[drawback]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

CNPCNP, I know you were disappointed in the Rhodes on the CK you tried, and I never played the 88 myself, but at least on the 61, playing with the Velocity Offset and Velocity Depth makes a big difference on pianos/EPs, and may be why you weren't hearing all the velocity layers you expected, or not having it respond the way you wanted.

 

And the Filter controls can adjust tone, offset, even bark to a certain degree. That’s when velocity can really make a difference. 

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

what cc# are you using to map lowest drawbar (16') to VB3m?  i assumed the ones for the reface yc would work (cc102) but they don't. (so much for compatibility across platforms.

 

nor do CC 18, 77 or 111 as listed in the ck61 manual.  any insight appreciated.

this is so weird. i can get leslie speed no problem via the CK61 mod wheel. but no drawbars whatsoever.

 

EDIT: Solved.  Midi control has to be ON and the CK61 default is OFF.  did not realize this as the midi control on/off ignores the mod wheel, so assumed it was default to ON.  still can't believe that the draw CC's aren't the same #'s as the Reface YC.

[AnotherScott]

32 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

EDIT: Solved.  Midi control has to be ON and the CK61 default is OFF.  

Yup. I was just about to refer you to https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/183138-yamaha-ck61-and-ck88/page/18/#comment-2958111 🙂 I figured it was that or you were using the CK's external zone function (unfortunately, you can't enable drawbar operation in the external zones).

 

[Paul Woodward]

Word of warning when using the CK or YC with an iPad/tablet etc, the amount of data sent is quite extensive (even just when changing live sets) and messed up all my Korg Module sets until I turned midi control off. You might be ok in your situation but you can often send the data you need via master keyboard mode although sadly, not drawbar control. 

Just in case anything else goes haywire for you.

[D. Gauss]

31 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Word of warning when using the CK or YC with an iPad/tablet etc, the amount of data sent is quite extensive (even just when changing live sets) and messed up all my Korg Module sets until I turned midi control off.  

yeah i noticed that!  it was yet another reason why i didn't think to look at midi control on/off 'cause it sends all that data even with it set to OFF.  Doh!

 

now how do we get those CK buttons (percussion/vib/chorus) to send a CC to VB3m?  is there an app similar to Bome midt translator that works on IOS?

 

And here's another gotcha/disappointment...  the USB audio IN volume is global and can't be saved in a live set. Grrrr that sucks for using VB3. 

 

-also no polarity reverse switch for pedal settings? they only want you to use a giant FC7 which is not very subway friendly vs  those cheap chinese mini expression pedals.

[AnotherScott]

28 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

now how do we get those CK buttons (percussion/vib/chorus) to send a CC to VB3m? is there an app similar to Bome midt translator that works on IOS?

Keystage has translator functions. I know people have used it to get the Roland VR-09 (whose drawbars only send sysex) to control B3X etc. So it can probably turn the sysex strings generated by those buttons into appropriate CCs. The good news is that there is good support from the developer and other users... the bad news is that it's via facebook. 😉

[D. Gauss]

48 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Keystage has translator functions. 

 

doesn't seem to be available for iphone....or at least my gigging iphone 6s (headphone jack!!!)

[AnotherScott]

18 minutes ago, D. Gauss said:

 

doesn't seem to be available for iphone....or at least my gigging iphone 6s (headphone jack!!!)

ah, yes, it's iPad only.

 

It looks like midiflow might do the trick, though...

 

https://www.midiflow.com/documentation/#controller-remapping

 

 

[AnotherScott]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:01 PM, CNPCNP said:

Thanks for pointing out, indeed limitations to control it, as well as those different engines. A pity.

I gave a clumsy explanation of the potential drawstrip control limitation issue on the Vox, so expanding on that here... Since a scene contains 4 sounds, if the filter and envelope settings were not limited to the key/layer sound, there would be no simple way to specify or know which of the 4 sounds those controls should be affecting at any given time or in any given scene. (But regardless, right, the underlying engines don't necessarily include those parameters in the first place.)

 

On 1/27/2024 at 7:01 PM, CNPCNP said:

OTOH #1, I figure it's nice to see that they didn't translate all stuff to a common kind of engine (losing some benefits for each along the way), but went for several separate machines. No idea to which extend this truly matters though.)

I think it might matter a lot. If something you find appealing about the Vox EPs is that you can't hear shifting between velocity layers (as you do on the CK), that's because they implemented it with their EP modeling engine, and didn't use the straight sample playback engine (though it is also possible to get closer to that goal by employing more velocity layers). Similarly, if you feel the Vox' "analog synth" style patches sound/behave more like those synths than they do on the CK, that, too, is probably because the VC uses a VA synth engine and not sample playback to achieve these sounds.

 

This also might get to your question about the CK vs the Reface CP. I don't have experience with the Reface, but it uses "SCM" which is one of Yamaha's modeling technologies. I suspect you might not hear the velocity layer shifting on the Reface that you hear on the CK. Maybe someone else can confirm.

 

On 1/27/2024 at 7:01 PM, CNPCNP said:

OTOH #2, that EG that I was lusting for, couldn't it simply be offered as a A(D)(S)R-controlled VCA for all, further down the chain. The problem remains to have controls for it, and it'll go a bit far by having it as a MIDI-controlled bonus feature only.

Architecturally, I don't know that anything exists further down the chain, other than "global" processing (e.g. effects, EQ). And while it is possible to apply a filter (and I think an envelope) as an effect, it would no longer would affect each note individually (essentially paraphonic rather than polyphonic control).

 

On 1/27/2024 at 7:01 PM, CNPCNP said:

Which brings me to the pretty 'empty' MIDI-implementation of the KORG/VOX; what's the excuse to offer just so few CC-controllable parameters?

Yeah, the CK is way ahead of the Vox in the MIDI department. Obviously, the CK has the 4-zone external control, and the built-in interface. But while we complain that most of the CK knobs/buttons only send sysex and not CC, on the Vox, some of these things seem to send nothing at all. Maybe a MIDI monitor would show something, I don't know, but based on the MIDI docs, for example, the percussion button sends nothing, so you can't even get around it with external remapping.

[D. Gauss]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 But while we complain that most of the CK knobs/buttons only send sysex and not CC

 

Have any of you midflow experts tackled this yet? 

[AnotherScott]

On 1/29/2024 at 11:19 AM, D. Gauss said:

And here's another gotcha/disappointment...  the USB audio IN volume is global and can't be saved in a live set. Grrrr that sucks for using VB3. 

If you want VB3 to be at volume X in live set 1, but volume Y in live set 2, you should be able to create Presets in VB3 with the desired volumes, assign each one its own Program Change, and then put that Program Change into the appropriate Live Set so that essentially each Live Set is being saved with its own VB3 volume. Would that work for you?

[AnotherScott]

On 1/28/2024 at 11:22 PM, AnotherScott said:

Vox - probably the best feeling and best sounding overall... 😉

I should qualify that. I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox; Vox has better clav/EPs than the CK, overall. Pianos are tricky... I think I probably prefer the sound of the Yamaha pianos (and related, they're more tweakeble with EQ), but the piano playability of the Vox is better (comparing to the CK61; I haven't played the 88). And I also find the CK sound set more complete. We sometimes do some country, and sounds like banjo, harmonica, and solo violin/fiddle come in handy. CK has them, Vox does not.

 

{EDITED to fix a mess!}

[CNPCNP]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I gave a clumsy explanation of the potential drawstrip control limitation issue on the Vox, so expanding on that here... Since a scene contains 4 sounds, if the filter and envelope settings were not limited to the key/layer sound, there would be no simple way to specify or know which of the 4 sounds those controls should be affecting at any given time or in any given scene. (But regardless, right, the underlying engines don't necessarily include those parameters in the first place.)

 

 

Thanks for additional info.   To be sure I understand "Since a scene contains 4 sounds" correctly, I thought _two_ sound-categories could be enabled at once, but is it in fact up to (and including) four of them?

I understand though, if 'it' (filters, amplitude envelope) _had_ been part of the engines, it would indeed be difficult/impossible to control with the existing controls - unless indeed it all would have been -as you mentioned- paraphonic (which I'd been totally happy with though).  

 

[CNPCNP]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I should qualify that. I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ, better clav, better EPs than the Vox, overall. Pianos are tricky... I think I probably prefer the sound of the Yamaha pianos (and related, they're more tweakeble with EQ), but the piano playability of the Vox is better (comparing to the CK61; I haven't played the 88). And I also find the CK sound set more complete. We sometimes do some country, and sounds like banjo, harmonica, and solo violin/fiddle come in handy. CK has them, Vox does not.

 

Oops, I need to re-calibrate a bit I understand. As far as the EPs go, I thought the general idea was that the EPs of the Vox Continental were 'nicer/better' than those of the CK.
(And that's irrespective of the higher number of available number of variations for the Vox. I do fully agree though that if you have one you like, you don't need much more.)

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, CNPCNP said:

To be sure I understand "Since a scene contains 4 sounds" correctly, I thought _two_ sound-categories could be enabled at once, but is it in fact up to (and including) four of them?

No, your initial understanding was correct. The scene does contain 4 sounds stored with all their settings, but you can only enable two of them at a time. You can freely switch among them (singly or in combination), but with only 2 sounding at a time.

 

22 minutes ago, CNPCNP said:

Oops, I need to re-calibrate a bit I understand. As far as the EPs go, I thought the general idea was that the EPs of the Vox Continental were 'nicer/better' than those of the CK.

Ouch, I really messed up that sentence with some clumsy editing, that left part of it saying the exact opposite of what it was supposed to say! I have edited the post to correct that.

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox

Does that include the rotary sim? I was very un-impressed by the CK's sim - the Vox is more credible to my ears.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Redknife]

I played the electric pianos on my ck for a while listening for sample variation in response to comments. I don’t know what the CK EP engine uses to generate the sound-modeling/sampling/both. To my ears, with headphones, I hear a range of tones as I vary velocity. I could not reproduce a binary sounding tone differentiated by velocity. I consider it to be a well playing responsive EP. Not the best but to me definitely useable alone or in a group. I have come to enjoy the synth keyboard and find I can get a nice consistent response from the keys across the velocity curve. Most of what I’ve said is opinion, but I have been playing the board quite a bit.

[CNPCNP]

36 minutes ago, Redknife said:

I played the electric pianos on my ck for a while listening for sample variation in response to comments. I don’t know what the CK EP engine uses to generate the sound-modeling/sampling/both. To my ears, with headphones, I hear a range of tones as I vary velocity. I could not reproduce a binary sounding tone differentiated by velocity. I consider it to be a well playing responsive EP. Not the best but to me definitely useable alone or in a group.

Possibly my quick & dirty short test last weekend of a CK88 might have contributed to this 'just-only-two-layers indeed?' gossip.
Additional non-scientific contribution to this impression: just listening over the inbuilt speakers then. The switchover was repeatable though, but no further adjustments were made, so it may all be less relevant/valid.

 

Likely I'll be hearing a CK61 again soon, will re-test, with better monitoring then.

BTW#1, by chance I ran into a CP88 yesterday, so had a listen for eventual velocity switching for the EPs of that machine, and now there _was_ decent & louder monitoring.

Couldn't discern any transitions/steps, but I also realize the CP88 lives at another pricepoint.

 

BTW#2: I learned that for this key-newbie the Graded Hammer keybed of the CP88 is probably not the best type for me 😉

[Fleer]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I should qualify that. I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox; Vox has better clav/EPs than the CK, overall. Pianos are tricky... I think I probably prefer the sound of the Yamaha pianos (and related, they're more tweakeble with EQ), but the piano playability of the Vox is better (comparing to the CK61; I haven't played the 88). And I also find the CK sound set more complete. We sometimes do some country, and sounds like banjo, harmonica, and solo violin/fiddle come in handy. CK has them, Vox does not.

 

{EDITED to fix a mess!}

I fully concur. 

[AnotherScott]

 

19 hours ago, stoken6 said:

22 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox

Does that include the rotary sim? I was very un-impressed by the CK's sim - the Vox is more credible to my ears.

 

Yes, including the rotary. I've decided to pick up a VC again 😉 so I'll try to post an audio example in the next few days.

[danskeys]

The CK is really unique and needs to be looked at from the totality of its features.  Virtually all of the features of the CK are merely "good".  It isn't really amazing at anything. But it is good at so many things, that it's really pretty great!

 

The speakers aren't the best out there, but they're good.

The keyboard feel isn't the best, but it's totally fine.

The rotary sim is passable and usable, but obviously there is much better out there.

The pianos are very good, but not the best.

The UI is unique, pretty efficient, and overall really nice, but there's boards out there with more buttons/knobs, bigger screen, etc.

 

But I know of NO OTHER keyboard that has all of that wrapped up in one, and for significantly less money than most other keyboards.  And the CK adds bluetooth, audio inputs, USB audio, and some other tricks.  All of this, in total, is what makes the CK pretty awesome.  It won't replace my Nord Stage 4.  BUT...the Nord can't replace the CK either!!

 

Love the CK for what it is.

[Adan]

10 hours ago, danskeys said:

The CK is really unique and needs to be looked at from the totality of its features.  Virtually all of the features of the CK are merely "good".  It isn't really amazing at anything. But it is good at so many things, that it's really pretty great!

 

Yep, it's the proverbial baseball "utility player": the guy who's below average at everything, but can competently play any infield or outfield position, pinch hit, doesn't draw down the budget much, and never complains about their gap-filling role.  The CK is an essential part of my quiver. It's the best rehearsal tool I've ever had, knocking the VR09 off its pedestal.

[murphybridget]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:42 AM, AnotherScott said:

I should qualify that. I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox; Vox has better clav/EPs than the CK, overall. Pianos are tricky... I think I probably prefer the sound of the Yamaha pianos (and related, they're more tweakeble with EQ), but the piano playability of the Vox is better (comparing to the CK61; I haven't played the 88). And I also find the CK sound set more complete. We sometimes do some country, and sounds like banjo, harmonica, and solo violin/fiddle come in handy. CK has them, Vox does not.

 

{EDITED to fix a mess!}

It sounds like the CK has a bit of an edge with its tonewheel organ, while the Vox shines with its clav/EPs and superior piano playability. The versatility of the CK's sound set, especially with banjo, harmonica, and solo violin/fiddle, makes it a winner for country tunes.

[AnotherScott]

 

 

On 2/1/2024 at 12:26 PM, AnotherScott said:

On 1/31/2024 at 4:36 PM, stoken6 said:

On 1/31/2024 at 1:42 PM, AnotherScott said:

I'd say the CK has a better sounding tonewheel organ than Vox

Does that include the rotary sim? I was very un-impressed by the CK's sim - the Vox is more credible to my ears.

Yes, including the rotary. I've decided to pick up a VC again 😉 so I'll try to post an audio example in the next few days.

 

The plot thickens. The rotary comparison varies a lot with which Vox sound you start with. 

 

The Vox gives you 19 basic tonewheel organ sounds. They are not merely different drawbar settings (which you can always alter and save your own variations of anyway), but different sets of other (otherwise uneditable/inaccessible) parameters, like percussion (perhaps the most obvious one), click, drive, crosstalk... and, as it turns out, different rotary sim settings, which is something I hadn't realized.

 

It's a complicated comparison. Ultimately, Vox provides more variations of basic organ settings than the CK does; OTOH, you can't "mix and match" elements of the settings. So you may find that you can't get a rotary effect you prefer on an organ sound whose character you prefer, or has the percussion settings you want, whatever. Though you still end up with a wider variation of tonewheel organ sounds than on the CK.

 

So I'm going to backtrack on my CK preference for organ and rotary. With some of the 19 Vox options, I'd prefer the CK and/or its rotary; with others, not. 

 

[LarsHarner2]

On 2/1/2024 at 9:27 PM, danskeys said:

The CK is really unique and needs to be looked at from the totality of its features.  Virtually all of the features of the CK are merely "good".  It isn't really amazing at anything. But it is good at so many things, that it's really pretty great!

 

The speakers aren't the best out there, but they're good.

The keyboard feel isn't the best, but it's totally fine.

The rotary sim is passable and usable, but obviously there is much better out there.

The pianos are very good, but not the best.

The UI is unique, pretty efficient, and overall really nice, but there's boards out there with more buttons/knobs, bigger screen, etc.

 

But I know of NO OTHER keyboard that has all of that wrapped up in one, and for significantly less money than most other keyboards.  And the CK adds bluetooth, audio inputs, USB audio, and some other tricks.  All of this, in total, is what makes the CK pretty awesome.  It won't replace my Nord Stage 4.  BUT...the Nord can't replace the CK either!!

 

Love the CK for what it is.

Great post- I've had it for 7-8 months or whenever it shipped .

I get really nice sounds from the Piano, and Rhodes, IMHO the Organs could be a bit better, perhaps is there somewhere I can look or can someone recommend B3 settings?

As a package as a whole its great- I think I paid perhaps ?$800 if i remember correctly. It looks nice and is fun to play and mix different elements.

 

[John Tweed]

6 hours ago, LarsHarner2 said:

Great post- I've had it for 7-8 months or whenever it shipped .

I get really nice sounds from the Piano, and Rhodes, IMHO the Organs could be a bit better, perhaps is there somewhere I can look or can someone recommend B3 settings?

As a package as a whole its great- I think I paid perhaps ?$800 if i remember correctly. It looks nice and is fun to play and mix different elements.

 

i don’t think there is much you can fiddle with in the organ dept. but you can easily connect an iPhone or iPad and use one of the many apps, such as VB3 or B3X. For recording this is the way to go.  Live the inbuilt organ works pretty well, as long as you are not doing a Jimmy Smith tribute.
 

I’ve used VB3 (on my phone) if I need better sound live - I always have it with me, and it can balance on the end of the keyboard in a pinch (CK61). I have not used B3X live much so far as there is nowhere to conveniently put it.

 

For my money the built in organ sound is much better than what I would expect, given many of the comments here and elsewhere. When I first got it I tried out all three organs at a gig and while the band members agreed that B3X was the best, no-one complained when I used the Yammy emulation . Up until that point I had been using an SK1 thru a Vent. Sadly the SK1 has become a bit temperamental (had it for 12 years, a pretty good run if you ask me), and won’t always turn on.