Hammond SKX Pro

[M_G]

Hi,

 

I have both: 

XK5 AND SK-Pro.

Even with the exact paramter values (and I checked every single one when I transferred my TW-Set) they sound

different, slightly different, but there is a difference in sound.

I guess it's due to the better output stage or whatever.

The XK5 is clearer and more defined, more punch and sparkle. The SK Pro seems a bit duller in direct comperison.

On the orher side: Even with the exact parameters the leslie sim on the SK-Pro seems improved. More "wood".... 

 

So the terminus "derived from" seems to be correct IMHO.

 

[Losendoskeys]

7 hours ago, M_G said:

Hi,

 

I have both: 

XK5 AND SK-Pro.

Even with the exact paramter values (and I checked every single one when I transferred my TW-Set) they sound

different, slightly different, but there is a difference in sound.

I guess it's due to the better output stage or whatever.

The XK5 is clearer and more defined, more punch and sparkle. The SK Pro seems a bit duller in direct comperison.

On the orher side: Even with the exact parameters the leslie sim on the SK-Pro seems improved. More "wood".... 

 

So the terminus "derived from" seems to be correct IMHO.

 

 

 

I'm hoping to transcribe from the SKX to SKX Pro without too much adjustment - are the parameters similar?

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, M_G said:

I have both: 

XK5 AND SK-Pro.

Even with the exact paramter values (and I checked every single one when I transferred my TW-Set) they sound

different, slightly different, but there is a difference in sound.

I guess it's due to the better output stage or whatever.

The XK5 is clearer and more defined, more punch and sparkle. The SK Pro seems a bit duller in direct comperison.

 

I wonder if it could be the tube. Is there a way on the XK5 to completely defeat the tube? It would be interesting to see if they then sounded more similar (with no internal Leslie effect on either one, to rule out any difference the Leslie sim may be making to the basic tone as well).

 

9 hours ago, M_G said:

On the orher side: Even with the exact parameters the leslie sim on the SK-Pro seems improved. More "wood".... 

 

 

That would be consistent with what had been my understanding, that it is a different Leslie sim.
 

On 2/6/2022 at 6:58 PM, Delaware Dave said:

the XK5 has not had a leslie upgrade since well before the introduction of the SKPro.  The SKPro's leslie through recordings, to my ears, sounds better than the XK5.  IMO I dont think that they are the same. And why you wouldnt put your latest and greatest leslie sim into your flagship model is a head scratcher especially when you are pricing it at $3600 for the single manual version.

 

On 2/7/2022 at 12:20 AM, Pa Gherkin said:

Head scratcher indeed. 

 

On 2/7/2022 at 8:57 PM, Mark Schmieder said:

Hmm, the plot thickens. Maybe they want to wait a while before updating XK-5 firmware to match the new Leslie sim

 

On 2/8/2022 at 9:16 AM, Delaware Dave said:

Hammonds history typically drops future updates once the new model arrives.  If that perceived pattern holds then you won't see an update of the leslie sim in the XK5.

 

As to the question of whether they will update the Leslie sim in the XK5, it may not be a marketing decision as some of that exchange implies... it may not be possible. Not ALL code in a keyboard is necessarily designed to be updatable, or stored in rewritable memory. These things have shifted a bit over time, but traditionally, rewritable memory has been more expensive than ROM (and generally slows down boot as well), so some things would be firmware-updatable and some things not. And especially since the XK5 came out about 5 years earlier than the SK Pro, I wouldn't make any assumptions about what newer tech could or could not be "retrofitted" into the earlier design.

 

22 hours ago, Al Coda said:

In the vid above (SK Pro vs XK 5) I have the impression the XK5 output drives the leslie harder and that´s why there´s more distortion/overdrive and more harmonics.

 

This is indeed an interesting variable. The two organs were not carefully level matched for that demo (you can see toward the beginning, he is playing with the volumes on them to try to get them closer, so it wasn't a careful match there), and driving the Leslie harder with one would definitely alter the character. Some other things we don't know:

* How did he send both organs into the Leslie? If there was a mixer involved, how carefully were the mixer inputs checked to be sure they had the same gain/level settings, so that we can be sure the gain staging from the organ to the mixer to the Leslie was always the same?

* If both organs were just turned on to the default factory preset as they come out of the box, do we know for sure that the two organs share the same first factory preset? Or if not, do we know that he set them to identical patches? There are so many settings that can later the sound of a patch. Heck, without knowing the patches he was comparing, for all we know, he could have been running the B-3 model tonewheels on one and the A-100 model on the other, or any of many other possible variables.

 

I didn't read all the comments on the video, nor did I watch the whole video, so maybe he addressed some of this, I don't know.

[Al Coda]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

This is indeed an interesting variable. The two organs were not carefully level matched for that demo

 

M.G. said he owns both the SK Pro and Xk5 and there´s a difference in sound.

I trust him ...

But the SK Pro isn´t the SKX-Pro ... so there´s no comparison available up to now.

 

The XK5´s tube and it´s related electronics make a difference for sure.

Can it be fully bypassed ?

Already slightly different output levels make a difference when driving a real tube leslie (everyone uses the swell pedal because it does).

Tube- OR solid-state preamp produce different results in addition,- and the leslie´s tube power amp too.

 

The XK5, Sk Pro and now SKX Pro were designed at different times and I doubt H/S decided for exactly the same electronic components for these designs.

Development of electronic parts moves on, cheaper variations are available by the time where "cheaper" won´t mean "less quality" always.

Availability and variation in electronic component production runs play a role too.

 

These youtube comparisons never tell the truth because there are too many variables,- and sometimes one of these variables is the "influencer" himself.

maybe he wants the XK5 to sound better because he owns one,- who knows ?

I also wondered how he routed both the organs to that leslie simultaneously,- there must have been kind of a mixer in between.

In the vid, the SK Pro is constantly a bit lower level than the XK5 and that´s why I have the impression it´s possibly intentional.

 

Well,- I wanna hear the SKX Pro w/ it´s internal leslie sim and without,- maybe w/ a different amp sim instead.

I got old and live in modern times,- so no interest in "furniture" anymore,- no real leslie, no heavy tube amp head and no 4x12 cab or such.

Just only the instrument w/ good quality and usable sims.

Extra sounds are welcome but not essential,- I´m ready for compromises when quality of extra sounds is not TOO low.

Playing p.ex.  APs and EPs (except Clav) on the lower manual waterfall action IS a compromise already.

I´d appreciate FX like ringmod, wah, chorus/phasor/flanger, delay & reverb in a usable quality.

 

🙂

 

A.C.

[Mark Schmieder]

Although comparison videos don't always have all parameters matched precisely, I have yet to hear an SK Pro demo, on its own or in comparison mode, that wows me like the XK-5 demos do. But I'm torn anyway, due to the slightly better Leslie sim in the SK Pro. And yes, to my ears it isn't a HUGE step from XK-5 to SK Pro Leslie sim, so my bigger question is going to be whether to expect another XK-1 update that pulls in the best of both models. Of course there's no guarantee the XK-1 will ever get an upgrade.

 

It's interesting that the XK-5 lower manual is said to be compatible with the single manual SK Pro as top keybed, and that the patches are roughly compatible as well.

[M_G]

 

..... I bypassed the tube circuit in the XK5 for comparsion. Still a difference.

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

5 hours ago, M_G said:

 

..... I bypassed the tube circuit in the XK5 for comparsion. Still a difference.

 

 

The XK5 has many variations of different A's, B3, C3's etc.  It would be interesting to know if the difference is strictly due to the XK5 model being used, or in other words, could you change the XK5 model so that it actually does sound the same as the SKPro? In the video there is a difference but not much more different than my own B3 vs. my L100P (Porta B).  Turning off C/V and percussion the L100P is brighter than my B3, just like the XK5 was brighter than the SKPro.  Personally, I think that the XK5 demo's hold up very well against a B3.  The two things that kill the XK5 for me are the internal leslie and the price.  The SKPro solves both of those issues as I find its internal leslie quite acceptable and price point much more reasonable than the XK5.  I've already invested in the "Mojo in a rack" with the Gemini module. I do wish the Gemini module was put into a 73/76 key keyboard with drawbars and a decent action.  That would be my next keyboard as the Gemini module does all instruments incredibly well whereas the SKPro's non-organ sounds don't 'wow' me like the Gemini module's non-organ sounds do.

[Outkaster]

In the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter because the XK5 is a tank and I don't see people using an SK Pro with it anyway.  I would doubt most guys have them in the same live rig.

[M_G]

19 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

he XK5 has many variations of different A's, B3, C3's etc.  It would be interesting to know if the difference is strictly due to the XK5 model being used, or in other words, could you change the XK5 model so that it actually does sound the same as the SKPro?

 

Did you read my first post on this topic ?

I transferred my own XK-5 TW-Set (btw. you can find it in the download section of the Hammond-Europe homepage.....) to the SK-Pro.

Parameter by Parameter 1:1........... EQ, CV, Perc.....everything....... THERE IS A DIFFERENCE (but maybe older ears don't hear it anymore, I'm 53...).

 

Is it significant or relevant in any way??? I don't think so...... I don't care about it.

 

You can make the XK5 or SK-Pro sound like any A100/B3 or C3 more or less. Just analyze it and create a TW-Set.

 

Does it then sound 1:1 to the "Real Thing" ?

Maybe or maybe not...... who cares ?

 

Let's play that damn things... The player makes the difference not the gear !

😉

 

 

[skipeb3]

Here's a question...

Does anyone know if the pitch bend wheel works the organ section, or does it just work on the synth?

Every now & then I'll be on a gig and someone will call a tune by the Band, and it's tough to do Garth Hudson type things on an SK1, without any way to bend pitch.

Thanks in advance...

[Pa Gherkin]

Yes,the pitch wheel works on the organ voices.

[skipeb3]

Cool. Thanks...

[mwheels]

So excited to unbox my sk pro yesterday, but to my disappointment I knew within a couple hours that it had to be retuned. I really wanted to like the sk pro, but there was no comparison.  Compared side by side with my electro 5d the Leslie simulator on the Hammond is better, organs are very comparable when you set them the same - but everything else, the Nord blows the Hammond completely out of the water. Nord pianos, clavs, and rhodes make the Hammond sound like a toy 

[AnotherScott]

51 minutes ago, mwheels said:

organs are very comparable when you set them the same

 

A difference here is that the Hammond is enormously customizable. So while you can get the hammond to sound a lot like the Nord, there are tons of organ characters you can get on the Hammond that you can't get on the Nord.

 

53 minutes ago, mwheels said:

everything else, the Nord blows the Hammond completely out of the water. Nord pianos, clavs, and rhodes make the Hammond sound like a toy 

 

Nord pianos are certainly better. Most of the other sampled sounds (e.g. the ones in the "sample synth" section) would be a tougher call. A big difference is, again, the Hammond versions are all very editable, the Nord versions can't be altered much.

 

The other place Hammond is objectively better is synth, which benefit not just from the full editability, but an actual VA synth engine (instead of samples) for mono sounds, and related "lead synth" enhancements like pitch bend, mod wheel, and portamento.

 

And in overall functionality, the Hammond has midi zones, seamless sound changes (at least to some extent), and a ton more split/layer flexibility

 

Nord has custom sample loading, though, and all the real-time effects controls, and the benefits of greater simplicity. If the Nord does all you need, I can certainly see preferring it over the Hammond. But it is much more limited in total functionality than the Hammond. so for a lot of people, I think it is less likely to be all they need.

[M_G]

Big plus for me on the SK Pro are the pitchbend and modwheel. And the output options !

I can go via the 11 pin to my Leslie and at the same time with the Leslie sim to the mixer and

the extra sounds routed to the aux outs !

 

To make the organ sound of the SK Pro comparable to the Nord engine ??

That means to find a very cheesy patch.....

😁😁😁

 

 

[Jon E]

21 minutes ago, M_G said:To make the organ sound of the SK Pro comparable to the Nord engine ??

That means to find a very cheesy patch.....

😁😁😁

 

 

Like these? 

 

[Losendoskeys]

10 hours ago, mwheels said:

So excited to unbox my sk pro yesterday, but to my disappointment I knew within a couple hours that it had to be retuned. I really wanted to like the sk pro, but there was no comparison.  Compared side by side with my electro 5d the Leslie simulator on the Hammond is better, organs are very comparable when you set them the same - but everything else, the Nord blows the Hammond completely out of the water. Nord pianos, clavs, and rhodes make the Hammond sound like a toy 

For sounding like a Hammond, the SK2/SKX/SLKPro blow any Nord out of the water.
I buy them to sound exactly like a Hammond and tweak them to the nth degree - the extra voice stuff is irrelevant to me

 

[Dockeys]

2 hours ago, Jon E said:

Like these? 

 

it’s ok to like this right?…….😀

[JMcS]

13 hours ago, mwheels said:

So excited to unbox my sk pro yesterday, but to my disappointment I knew within a couple hours that it had to be retuned. I really wanted to like the sk pro, but there was no comparison.  Compared side by side with my electro 5d the Leslie simulator on the Hammond is better, organs are very comparable when you set them the same - but everything else, the Nord blows the Hammond completely out of the water. Nord pianos, clavs, and rhodes make the Hammond sound like a toy 

Find the Velocity Offset Parameter (It may now be called something different) and adjust that. The velocity offset allows the user to add (or subtract) values to/from the actual generated velocity. It can be difficult to hit the keys hard enough to generate a high velocity value. This causes the key strike and other initial harmonics to not sound.

[Delaware Dave]

8 minutes ago, JMcS said:

Find the Velocity Offset Parameter (It may now be called something different) and adjust that. The velocity offset allows the user to add (or subtract) values to/from the actual generated velocity. It can be difficult to hit the keys hard enough to generate a high velocity value. This causes the key strike and other initial harmonics to not sound.

 

Welcome back!  The voice of reason.

[DontShoot]

Here's a case unboxing, while we're waiting for more substantive demos...

 

 

[funkyhammond]

Cory Henry and what looks like an SKX Pro. It sounds great. Impossible to tell if he's using the built-in Leslie effect or not.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1430855932

[Doerfler]

I'd put my money on the internal sim. He has a gig in DC Monday night, wish I could make it to verify, but my guess is just a guess.

[Al Coda]

10 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Cory Henry and what looks like an SKX Pro. It sounds great. Impossible to tell if he's using the built-in Leslie effect or not.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1430855932

 

So, with that unbelievable crappy sound of that video you can say "it sounds great" ?

Really ?

 

A.C.

[Aperkeys]

11 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Cory Henry and what looks like an SKX Pro. It sounds great. Impossible to tell if he's using the built-in Leslie effect or not.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1430855932

In other videos and pictures on Facebook it's shown he has the new 142H onstage

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, Aperkeys said:

In other videos and pictures on Facebook it's shown he has the new 142H onstage

That doesn't surprise me. 

 

2 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

So, with that unbelievable crappy sound of that video you can say "it sounds great" ?

Really ?

 

Yes, I can, at least in the context of a live band and for the types of organ sounds he's using. Listen for a while and you can start hearing through the distortion as your brain filters out the noise and tunes in to what you want to hear. Also, he starts a tune with just organ solo, no band, at around 9:20, which is a lot clearer. 

 

But if he's using a real Leslie on stage, then that doesn't give any indication of what the in-built rotary effect sounds like through a PA. In this video, when he puts the Leslie on fast it sounds really good in the band mix.

[funkyhammond]

Got a chance to finally try out an SK Pro 61 at L&M here in Toronto. I would normally be considering the 73 or the dual manual but this is what is available now. I played it through a keyboard amp and good headphones. The keyboard had just been taken out of the box a couple hours earlier so I didn't bother looking up the factory reset. These are just my first impressions after playing with it for a couple of hours without having looked at the user's manual. Also, just FYI, I have never owned a digital Hammond-Suzuki brand keyboard. Aside from owning a real A-100, the clones I have owned are Roland VK-8M, Nord Electros, Nord C1, and the GSi VB3/VB3-II software VSTs (more recently paired with IKM T-Racks Leslie VST).

 

Probably to be expected, the organ immediately sounded great and the action was also perfect for organ. The Leslie sim was very good, maybe less "wood" sounding than I was expecting but I also know that there are different cabinets and settings to tweak. The simulated multi-contact system is cool but seemed to be a bit too pronounced at times, especially when playing staccato lines. If there is a way to make it less sensitive/random, I would adjust that, otherwise I might be inclined to turn it off.

 

I was disappointed with the rhodes, wurly and clav sounds. Maybe it's a sign that they don't feature them in the first few banks of 'favorites' that I went through. Lots of organs, APs with strings, pads, synths, orchestral stuff, but not EPs. I went into manual mode to call up some EPs. I'll have to play around with the EPs more on a second session. One of the frustrations was that I couldn't find the damn velocity curve setting in the menus. Which brings me to my next point...

 

The control interface is dense and not super intuitive. Sometimes pressing certain buttons didn't do what I was expecting or it took a while to figure out the behaviour. Sometimes I couldn't find what I wanted in the menus probably because of a complicated architecture that requires looking stuff up in the manual. I know the reasoning for having the percussion switches on the right side but they frankly look out of place on a multi-purpose board like this with clearly marked sections. As much as I actually do like having a mono synth in a board like this, the amount of surface area dedicated to the mono synth is a head scratcher considering other useful things you could do with that space. I would be happier with just filter and LFO controls for the synth and then to have a section of controls for effects. I find it funny that they had the revelation to at least put a dedicated leslie overdrive knob on the dual manual version.

 

Anyway, these are just first impressions, but it does speak to the fact that this board is not designed to be an easy "fun" board to quickly make vintage keyboard sounds (plus effects) with in the way that boards like the Nords, Korg SV, Korg Vox Continental, Yamaha CP/YC are. The mono synth is maybe the exception. And my gut is telling me that I won't be satisfied with the EPs but I'll have to give them another go before writing them off completely. My hope was to have this (the 73 or dual manual) as my all-in-one board and then to have an inexpensive weighted controller for when I wanted a dual board setup. I can't afford two expensive boards. If I can't get good EPs out of this, it's back to the drawing board and I'll be very sad.

[AnotherScott]

funkyhammond, yes, I think they key to getting the EPs their best is to find those velocity adjustments, particularly "velocity offset."

 

And yes, there are parts of the interface that are a bit of a mess, and things that are not clear in the manuals despite there being over 1000 pages worth of  'em.

 

I have to say, though, that I applaud the combination of drawbar organ and a full battery of synth controls. Just from an action perspective, I think there are tons of players who look to get their pianos/EPs out of their bottom board, their organ and synth out of the top (and most other sounds could conceivably come from either), and yet there are almost no boards with real-time organ and synth controls. There's basically these Hammonds, the Nord Stage 3, and you could make a case for the full-size Roland Fantoms. That's pretty much it.* Though it would have been nice if the Hammond had an option, when the solo synth were not engaged, to allow those same controls to operate on the sample-based poly synth which is in the board as well, but can only be manipulated through the on-screen menus.

 

* - There are also some boards where the organ controls (sliders/drawbars) can be repurposed to be synth controls, but they provide only a small number of synth controls, and by repurposing the same controls, you lose the ability to  manipulate both the organ sound AND the synth sound in an organ/synth split in the same patch, and also having to use the same controls can leave the controls in the wrong place for the "other" sound if you are going back and forth between a synth and an organ sound.

[funkyhammond]

49 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I have to say, though, that I applaud the combination of drawbar organ and a full battery of synth controls.

 

Like I said, I do like having the mono synth, so I'm sure I'll come around to appreciating all the controls. BTW, I noticed that the mono synth sounds smoother than the one in the Yamaha YC (I was complaining about it having slight stepping artifacts when doing pitch bend/portamento and I did also test the FM sounds), so I'm happy about that. 

[funkyhammond]

Second round of testing the SK Pro 61 today at the store. This time I had read up some things in the owner's manual first. I set up a couple of keyboard amps in stereo and also tested with headphones. Was also A/B-ing with the Yamaha YC 61 (which I updated with the latest OS for the rotary) and even the Nord Electro 6D a bit since it was right there. There was also a hammer action keyboard right there that I alternately MIDI-ed up to each board to better compare the response of the EPs. 

 

I've previously written my thoughts about the YC in that thread. The YC organ still bugs me even though it's quite good in many ways. Something about the attack of the notes (the key click and/or percussion) doesn't feel quite right when I'm playing more jazzy stuff with percussion (and it doesn't matter which of the H1-H3 organ models I use). It was more clearly confirmed when comparing against the SK Pro and the NE6. I'm sure the YC organs would be just fine for many situations. They at least have a gritty sound and good overdrive (two areas that the Nord organs are kind of weak in). But, overall, the SK Pro has the best organ and the best Leslie sim, IMO. The only thing that bothered me a bit about the Leslie sim (at least on the more jazzy presets) is that the tremelo effect of the horn was very subtle when switching to fast. The lower drum speeding up was much more pronounced. It was the same through the amps and the headphones. I went into the deep settings of the Leslie to bring the horn mics closer and turn them up a bit in the mix and that helped. It's definitely nice how editable everything is in the SK Pro, and this came up a couple more times and I will get into that. 

 

I was able to better test out the EPs now that I knew how to get at the velocity offset/depth settings. But the best test was actually playing it through MIDI from the hammer action keyboard. That certainly helped to make the Rhodes and Wurly more playable. I still prefer the ones in the YC and there is a much greater variety of EP sounds (sample sets) in the YC to pick from. Same goes for the NE6. The YC only has two different Clav sounds (representing two pickup settings) but they sound pretty good and much better than all four of the Clav sounds/pickup settings in the SK Pro. The Clav in the SK Pro sounds kind of thin/distant/lifeless in comparison to the YC and NE6. Anyway, the two Rhodes (Mk1 and Mk2) in the SK Pro are sounding a bit better to my ears now than last time but I'm not completely sold on them yet. The APs sounded surprisingly good for the little time I spent playing them. I'll have to go into the store one more time and just focus on tweaking the EPs.

 

One thing I had noticed was that the Wurly in the SK Pro didn't have the normal piano characteristic of the very high notes ringing out undampened. Seemed like a strange oversight. I decided to look at one of the APs and go into the deep "component" settings. The acoustic piano had two components, and the second component was just the very high notes that rang out. I was able to do a quick test and just change the waveform of the two components from the AP waveform to the Wurly waveform and then I had a Wurly with high notes that rang on. There were other deep settings that were obviously set up for acoustic piano because it was too bright and the dynamics were a bit off for an EP but it showed what could be done. It's great having that level of editability although I'm surprised they missed that detail in the default Wurly patch. But, of course, sometimes the basic sample set is just deficient in some way and no amount of editing parameters will make much of a difference. I suspect that is the case with the Clav but hopefully not the Rhodes.

 

One minor point about the mono synth. I'm more than happy with the way it is but considering they put so much attention to it, I'm surprised it's not a tiny bit more flexible with the oscillators. I would have expected one of the modes to be two independent oscillators where you can choose each oscillator to be any of sine, saw, or square. And a mode where you could have one osc + noise instead of just noise on its own like there is now.