Hammond SKX Pro

[AnotherScott]

18 minutes ago, JohnnyB3 said:

Crumar Mojo and Viscount simulate multicontact using software

Ah, I was not aware of that? What method do they use? SK pro allows you to switch between random and velocity-based. Velocity-based is arguably more authentic, but it means you lose the high trigger I could imagine some other possibilities, which I don't believe anyone has implemented: They could randomly trigger some percentage of the drawbars based on the high trigger and then trigger the rest based on velocity; or they could use high trigger but instead of the triggering being entirely random, they could base it on the velocity of the most recently played prior note, since more often than not, the velocity of a note is not wildly different from the velocity of the previous note (it would at least likely create a more authentic result than something that is totally random). The complication of either of those,  though, would seem to be the need to process two "note on" events for each strike (upper and lower trigger points), which is problematic unless you put them on different MIDI channels.

[JohnnyB3]

8 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Ah, I was not aware of that? What method do they use? SK pro allows you to switch between random and velocity-based. Velocity-based is arguably more authentic, but it means you lose the high trigger I could imagine some other possibilities, which I don't believe anyone has implemented: They could randomly trigger some percentage of the drawbars based on the high trigger and then trigger the rest based on velocity; or they could use high trigger but instead of the triggering being entirely random, they could base it on the velocity of the most recently played prior note, since more often than not, the velocity of a note is not wildly different from the velocity of the previous note (it would at least likely create a more authentic result than something that is totally random). The complication of either of those,  though, would seem to be the need to process two "note on" events for each strike (upper and lower trigger points), which is problematic unless you put them on different MIDI channels.

I’m not sure how it’s done but your description is insightful and likely how it's done.

Crumar VB3-II software says under main features: “Busbars and 9 key contact simulation”

Viscount: Sorry! I was mistaken. I can’t find any reference to multicontact simulation. I was thinking about something I read it somewhere long ago about of the original keyB organs but Viscount doesn't mention it and Joey D says "Nah".

 

On second thought think Viscount must have some sort of multicontact simulation as that's what generates the key click. There's probably more going on then they state in the specs.

[Delaware Dave]

"..VB3.... Busbars and 9 key contact simulation.."

 

If it's there I'm not hearing it.

 

 

 

.

[mate stubb]

1 hour ago, Delaware Dave said:

"..VB3.... Busbars and 9 key contact simulation.."

 

If it's there I'm not hearing it.

 

 

 

.

 

It's there. However it will never give you the ability to depress the key slowly enough to have control of bringing the individual drawbars on based on the depth.

 

In a single contact situation (high triggering) all you get is random microsecond delays of the individual tones. For normal fastish playing, this helps make the key click sound more realistic and less like a sample tacked on to the note.

 

In a dual contact situation (low triggering), the emulation can use velocity to control the amount of delays, but you still don't have control by depth.

 

I don't know how useful that is in real life. The technique of using extremely slow or partial key depresses exists but I never hear it used. I agree with Joey.

[Mark Schmieder]

Interesting. Just as I cannot live without mono-pressure on a synth, I feel the same way about the nuances available with multi-contact organ keys.

 

I tried the XK-5 when it first came out and was blown away by its keybed. I kept hoping it would work its way down the line.

 

Although it's hard to try-before-you-buy anymore, I may have to wait and see if I can find an actual SKX Pro to try before deciding vs. the XK-5.

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, mate stubb said:

The technique of using extremely slow or partial key depresses exists but I never hear it used. I agree with Joey.

 

10 minutes ago, Mark Schmieder said:

Interesting. Just as I cannot live without mono-pressure on a synth, I feel the same way about the nuances available with multi-contact organ keys.

 

The funny thing is, in a "perfect" B3, the contacts should all be triggered simultaneously. But engineering tolerances and the ravages of time being what they are, "sloppage" can arise. But maybe that's part of what contributes to the "character" of a well-worn model.

[drawback]

18 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The funny thing is, in a "perfect" B3, the contacts should all be triggered simultaneously. But engineering tolerances and the ravages of time being what they are, "sloppage" can arise. But maybe that's part of what contributes to the "character" of a well-worn model.

Throw in overdrive, leakage, dirt, click, hum, and as we have discussed recently, smell.😉

[Pa Gherkin]

Does the XK5 use the same rotary sim as the SKX pro? Having read every clonewheel thread top to bottom the answer to this has eluded me. Maybe I missed something.

[Mark Schmieder]

Yeah, I had trouble parsing whether the sim in the pro matches the 5 as well.

 

Hammond considered his machine to be a failure as it didn't sound like a specific pipe organ he had in mind. So although the contacts were meant to all hit at once, musicians have embraced the inexactness and use their ears to take advantage of it.

 

Instrument makers are always trying to make the perfect instrument. I see this in orchestral instrument making as well. But we musicians often prefer the imperfect.

[Delaware Dave]

5 hours ago, Pa Gherkin said:

Does the XK5 use the same rotary sim as the SKX pro? Having read every clonewheel thread top to bottom the answer to this has eluded me. Maybe I missed something.

the XK5 has not had a leslie upgrade since well before the introduction of the SKPro.  The SKPro's leslie through recordings, to my ears, sounds better than the XK5.  IMO I dont think that they are the same. And why you wouldnt put your latest and greatest leslie sim into your flagship model is a head scratcher especially when you are pricing it at $3600 for the single manual version.

[JohnnyB3]

8 hours ago, mate stubb said:

I don't know how useful that is in real life. The technique of using extremely slow or partial key depresses exists but I never hear it used. I agree with Joey.

Thanks for the explanation. I am beginning to understand it better. I think as long as key click is incorporated authentically, then the rest doesn't matter in real life playing. 

 

Pedal tapping on the XK-5 initially bothered me because even with a very light touch I kept hearing the note. Then I noticed that the presets - Jimmy Smith and others like McGriff, Shirley, and Burner - for some reason, I don't know why, are all set with a pedal envelope of R 8. When you dial that down to R 1 or CON then it's much easier to get a thump without the tone when pedaling lightly. On the keys CON means multiCONtact mode; on the pedals, which are not multicontact, I don't know what it means. 🤔

 

I'm curious how light pedal tapping feels on the Mojo or Legend to get the thump without the sound of the note. 

[Pa Gherkin]

4 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

the XK5 has not had a leslie upgrade since well before the introduction of the SKPro.  The SKPro's leslie through recordings, to my ears, sounds better than the XK5.  IMO I dont think that they are the same. And why you wouldnt put your latest and greatest leslie sim into your flagship model is a head scratcher especially when you are pricing it at $3600 for the single manual version.

 

I  was unaware of when the XK5’s sim was last updated but from recordings I came to the same conclusion as you. Head scratcher indeed. I can say that I find the SKPro’s sim to be stellar as is it’s overdrive. Bonus is that my live rig now has no external power supplies and level matching and gain staging are a breeze. Also,I really like the keyboard action. User interface not so much but perseverance is paying off. Jim Alfredson’s tutorials have been quite a help as well as the updated 600 some page user’s guide. 

[Outkaster]

I agree I used the SK Pro Sat night without my Vent II and it sounded great.

[Delaware Dave]

52 minutes ago, Outkaster said:

I agree I used the SK Pro Sat night without my Vent II and it sounded great.

Jason you own(ed) both XK5 and SKPro.  How would you compare the leslies?

[Mark Schmieder]

Hmm, the plot thickens. Maybe they want to wait a while before updating XK-5 firmware to match the new Leslie sim etc.? Sometimes a vendor wants to keep an incentive for people who like to stay on the constant upgrade path (aka G.A.S.). 🙂

[Outkaster]

22 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Jason you own(ed) both XK5 and SKPro.  How would you compare the leslies?

Dave the XK5 I had was during covid with no gigs but it sounded great. It was more organ than I needed though.  I think the SK is slightly improved as far as the Leslie sim goes.  Once I heard it front of house I though it was great.  I love the quiet praise patch but I always tend to run the organ "dry" on clones.

[Delaware Dave]

12 hours ago, Mark Schmieder said:

Hmm, the plot thickens. Maybe they want to wait a while before updating XK-5 firmware to match the new Leslie sim etc.? Sometimes a vendor wants to keep an incentive for people who like to stay on the constant upgrade path (aka G.A.S.). 🙂

Hammonds history typically drops future updates once the new model arrives.  If that perceived pattern holds then you won't see an update of the leslie sim in the XK5.

[Losendoskeys]

A quick word with Jim and now the SKX Pro is ordered!
If its good enough for Jim it's good enough for me 😉

[Mark Schmieder]

A very recent demo from Bonners in the UK:

 

 

 

[DontShoot]

That Bonners demo has been out for a while, and I think someone posted it earlier in this thread. Any newer demos that folks are aware of? I'd love to hear more of what the board can do.

[Mark Schmieder]

It's dated from less than two weeks ago. Does that means it's a reposting? I notice that sometimes YouTube has multiple links for the same video.

 

Or maybe you're thinking of their way earlier demo for the single manual version. They also have separate new demos posted for piano-only, etc.

[DontShoot]

4 minutes ago, Mark Schmieder said:

It's dated from less than two weeks ago. Does that means it's a reposting? I notice that sometimes YouTube has multiple links for the same video.

 

Or maybe you're thinking of their way earlier demo for the single manual version. They also have separate new demos posted for piano-only, etc.

 

 

 

[Mark Schmieder]

Exactly, it's from 1 January 2022, which is the vid I posted. These organ threads grow so quickly, it's hard to know which posts were missed, but I guess we also have a different view of what is long ago. For me, that's a minimum of one year, not 2+ weeks. 🙂

 

You had me thinking this model came out a while back. My impression was that it only just became available. So we can expect a flurry of new videos shortly. Yet so far, there are still some contradictory details, such as Bonners saying it's the exact same engine as the XK-5 and has compatible patches. I've never known them to be wrong though.

[Jon E]

Hammond says the SKX Pro engine is derived from the XK-5 which to me not means «the exact same engine»

http://www.hammond.eu/Products/ProductDetails?product=HASKX PRO

[AnotherScott]

My understanding was that the organ engine is the same as XK5, but Leslie may be different, and of course the XK5 has the tube, and the triple contact vs. double contact keys which will trigger slightly differently, so there are still sources of sonic differences even if the organ engine itself is identical.

[DontShoot]

Supposed to be the same as the XK5, with the multi-contacts, etc. plus a new and improved Leslie emulation.

[AnotherScott]

different multi-contact implementation.

[Al Coda]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

My understanding was that the organ engine is the same as XK5, but Leslie may be different, and of course the XK5 has the tube, and the triple contact vs. double contact keys which will trigger slightly differently, so there are still sources of sonic differences even if the organ engine itself is identical.

 

My understanding is that all that doesn´t matter unless it´s significantly improving sound and is audible in a "real world" comparision.

"Tube" in today´s digital instruments and cheapo (mic-) preamps as well,- to me means "starved plate" vs high voltage,- so no significant benefit in sound except more or less harsh overdrive/distortion and additional noise.

Some interpret that already as "warmth" !

 

To my ears, the overdrive I hear in the demo vids is better than before,- tube or not.

The real grid came from power amp overdrive and not from pre-amp.

 

Triple contact vs double contact and "virtual contact",- I give a s##t on unless I hear any significant improvement while playing and/or in a mix.

As you said before,- Hammond´s intention was a "single contact" experience vs. "multi contact" caused by at that time available technology.

I dig into the action the way you´d rarely hear "multi contacts" during performance,- solo or w/ a band.

In fact, it´s all nitpick s##t and not related to any better music at all.

 

Yeah, you can sit down w/ 2 organ clones and slowly press a key on both comparing "multi-contact" sim,- but that´s NOT what you do when gigging, recording or whatelse.

That s##it is subtle and might be important for all the "on the web" MI testers hunting for clicks,- but for a real musician, it doesn´t.

 

I´ve just watched a Steely Dan performance from 2003,- possibly one of the very best Ive ever seen,- and "the other" keyboardist "shined" w/ grand piano and Roland V-Combo !

 

Anyway ...

 

When the tone, percussion, C/V is right, the extra-sounds work well, overall functionality incl. MIDI masterkeyboard features is satisfying and the leslie sim is now better than ever expected from Hammond/ Suzuki,- that SKX-Pro should be a great keyboard for the money w/ the background, there´s a established network of dealers and service departements around the globe existing,- no ?

 

I´m not a H/S fanboy and opted for something "HX3",- like MAG from Czech,- just only to get "the real deal´s" haptics combined w/ modern sound engine.

But now I rethink because the product is not "boutique" and even there are differences in haptics.

In fact I prefer to get things serviced (relatively) quick instead sending ´em back to other countries.

Price is comparable too !

 

🙂

 

A.C.

 

[Delaware Dave]

Someone may have posted this already so if you've heard it already ignore it.  listen to this between 4:40 and 5:00. the SKPro is duller than the XK5 but  dont know what organ model he used in the XK5 and that might be the source.  Do they sound the same, no but to me sounds no different than my B3 and my Porta-B for which my Porta-B is brighter. To me the difference between the  SKPro and XK5 are about the same as my B3 and Porta-B.  My issue is the non-organ sounds, not good enough and not enough of them.  I would have liked this to be my PC3 replacement board but it falls short in the non-organ area both in quality and quantity.  Damn.......

 

 

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

 

is it evident SK Pro engine and SKX Pro engine are 100% identical ?

 

And,-

In the vid above (SK Pro vs XK 5) I have the impression the XK5 output drives the leslie harder and that´s why there´s more distortion/overdrive and more harmonics.

Same settings on different instruments don´t have to be the best idea urgently IMO.

I can imagine w/ some tweaks, they can sound very close ... possibly identical.

 

🙂

 

A.C.