Nord: Puzzled Semi-Rant......

[Rodan88]

Trying to wrap my brain around the simple issue of casually navigating Nord keyboards.

 

Let me first say:

 

1) I've never owned a Nord. I'm a diehard Kurzweil user, with many Yamahas, Rolands (and the odd Casio, E-mu, etc.) in my gear-history as well.

 

2) In my limited experience, I truly believe that Nord's products sound fantastic, are well-built and designed, and are more than worthy of their popularity. I'd gladly own one. Make that SEVERAL!!

 

3) Before y'all "gently suggest" (in your inimitable fashion ;-D) that I RTFM, I've actually read quite a bit/watched many videos about Nord's products, sound libraries,etc. I know well what they're capable of, and understand that Nord does things differently.

 

My issue is the (apparent) difficulty of casual, intuitive navigation. I'm occasionally faced with playing a backlined Nord, as I was last night. Beautiful 88-key Nord Stage (not sure which iteration), in great condition. Major event in NYC, for 800 guests. The instrument felt and sounded great - but I could not easily (actually, NOT AT ALL) find a high-quality, acoustic piano appropriate for playing jazz and classical with the 20-piece string ensemble I was working with. I had to settle for an overly bright rock piano-type patch. No one's evening was ruined, and the sun still came up this morning.

 

But...WTF? I suppose it's possible that the instrument in question had some of its pianos dumped in order to load in other sounds from the Nord library. But this was a backlined instrument, not a personally-owned one. Tons of BEAUTIFUL Rhodes, Wurlys, clavs, organs, synths, and MANY pianos - but all bright rock-oriented ones, or heavily-processed unusual pianos. These pianos sounded great, too - but they weren't what I needed. Where were the vaunted Steinway/Bosendorfer/Yamaha/Fazioli samples?

 

Sure, this was one particular instrument. But it's happened many times. About a year ago, I was called at the last minute to sub a sound check for Randy Kerber at a huge video game event here in NYC. I had to play some epic, classical-style game music with a small group of top L.A. studio players who were flown in for the event. (Someday, I'll post separately (with excerpts from the charts) about the unbelievable sight-reading challenge involved. Insane.) Another beautiful Nord Stage, requested by Randy. Another challenge finding an appropriate patch. Found something that was just "OK," and got by. But it wasn't what it should have been.

 

On most keyboards, the "flagship" acoustic piano patches are front-and-center - easily found even with no experience with the brand's user interface. But, even when playing Nords in music stores, I can never quite find what I want, or seem to make the instrument do what I want it to. I have to be satisfied with playing whatever patches I find (which at least sound great).

 

For example, I go to the section where you can select piano/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav/organ, etc., in an attempt to scroll through sounds by category. Nope. Is there no way to do that?

 

What am I missing? Why can't I wrap my brain around this? I freely admit to being a moron, but I'm a full-time pro with a pretty top-shelf resumé, and lots of experience, and never have this problem with any other brand. I'm sure there's a simple explanation, but what gives? I might just have to buy one to fully unlock its mysteries (hmmm....I like that idea), but can you guys save me a few bucks in the meantime? Thanks!

 

 

[harmonizer]

In both the Nord Stage and the Nord Electro, there is a "piano bank" in which one can load whichever Nord-created piano sounds they want in their keyboard. This "piano bank" includes all the Nord-created sounds for acoustic pianos (both grands and uprights), for Electric Piano (Rhodes), Wurly, and Clav. There are different amounts of "piano bank" memory available in different versions of both the Nord Stage and Nord Electro, with the newer models having more. It's completely up to the owner of the board which "piano bank" sounds will be present, and if it's an older model, the finite amount of piano bank memory might have forced them to leave certain piano sounds out.

 

If the monitoring setup for you Nord Stage was hooked up in mono, this might have also played a part in your dissatisfaction. The recently released "Royal Grand" works well in mono, and before that came out I was using the "Black Upright". but most of the Nord acoustic piano sounds just don't sound right in mono. And I don't mean that they just lack the goodness that stereo can bring, I mean that they really don't work in mono.

 

Nord should be complimented for continuing to release new piano sounds for their Stage and Electro keyboards, including sounds that work with models that are several years old. These allow the owner of one of these boards to bring in newer improved sounds. In my Electro 3 (which is several years old), there is no easy way to tell which piano sounds are present in its memory without hooking up a computer via USB. *I* know what's in mine, and to optimize my memory usage I have just one largish-size acoustic paino sound loaded on my Electro. But the way this works means that if my Electro were provided by a venue for guest musicians who play there, those visiting musicians have no idea which piano sounds will be loaded in it. I don't know if the Stage displays more info about the currently selected sound, but even if it did, the name of that sound might not mean anything to a guest musician who was unfamiliar with the Nord-provided acoustic piano sounds.

[marczellm]

Apologies if this is too much of a hand holding but here's my take.

 

On a Roland, Kurz, Korg or Yamaha instrument, the default (encouraged) way of using the instrument is finding an appropriate preset with the category based easy preset selection method. Editing sounds is thought of as something only advanced users do, because there are so many parameters and menus to get lost in. A Nord has way less parameters, but they are all on the front panel. So the default way to quickly find the desired sound (for example on a jam session or in a subbing situation like yours) is dial it in like on a good old analog.

 

On the Stage 2, the Piano section is to the left of the screen. At the bottom it says 'Piano select' where you can switch between all the piano samples loaded into the instrument. Select 'Grand' and then use the 'Model' button to cycle through all the available grand piano samples. The screen will display the name of the sample as you cycle. Make sure all effects are turned off to hear the unprocessed pianos. The FX section is to the far right.

 

Of course you can save and recall programs on a Nord, but that is more tedious because of the small screen, and in my experience (with the NS2) it's only useful when you do your programming in advance. It does come with factory presets but I found those useless. (More for showcasing what it can do, and not for real performance situations.) I don't know about the other models but the Stage 2 also has a way to order the saved programs by category. Above the dial there is a button with the secondary (Shift) function of 'Sortmode'. That toggles alphabetic or categorical ordering. I never use it.

[cphollis]

The Nord model is certainly different than others, as you're encouraged to tweak on-the-fly. There isn't a single Nord preset I've ever used without at least some modifications.

 

My guess is that you had issues in three areas: (1) turning off all the non-piano layers, (2) selecting an appropriate piano sample that may or may not have been loaded, and (3) seasoning to taste with EQ, etc.

 

Even if the owner had only loaded the brightest of the bright Nord piano samples, you could have partially tamed the beast with the on-board parametric EQ knobs.

 

Sorry about your experience, though ...

 

 

[dreamer65]

There is no right life in the wrong. - Adorno

 

NE5 owner here. Use a CP4 for easy Piano finding and superior piano sounds . Or wait for MusikMesse

[AnotherScott]

Beautiful 88-key Nord Stage (not sure which iteration), in great condition...but I could not easily (actually, NOT AT ALL) find a high-quality, acoustic piano appropriate for playing jazz and classical with the 20-piece string ensemble I was working with.

So much is subjective... I don't have the same use that you do, but even I never found a Nord piano sound I liked until they came out with the Grand Imperial in 2011, and plenty of people were raving about Nords before then.

 

For example, I go to the section where you can select piano/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav/organ, etc., in an attempt to scroll through sounds by category. Nope. Is there no way to do that?

It sounds like you're talking about the program recall area, and yes, there is a way to scroll by category (at least on the 2), but I think that the program recall section is primarily for people using their own Nords, setting up their favorites, working with samples and/or sounds for specific songs, etc. If I (particularly as a non Nord owner) were to be put in front of one as backline, I would probably try to avoid those preset functions, and instead focus on using the "real time" controls which is, in a sense, what Nord is famous for. Nord patch management has always been a weakness, it's not an ideal board for "preset jockeys," its operational strength is in being able to call up the core sounds and tweak them the way you want on the fly.

 

So from that perspective, there is no "section where you can select piano/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav/organ, etc".

 

If you want Organ, you turn organ On with the on/off button under the big illuminated Level rotary toward the top left. Forget about presets, just use the controls right in that section (i.e. to select Vox/Farfisa/B3, drawbar settings, rotary/overdrive, C/V, percussion), and dial in the organ sound you want in real time.

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/products/nord-stage-2/images/organsect_lg.jpg

 

If you want Piano/Rhodes/Wurly/Clav, similarly, turn on the Piano section. Select one of the 6 broad categories (Grand, Upright, EP1, EP2, Clav, Harpsi), and scroll just through the small number of options available for the one you selected (perhaps modifying with one of the small number of modification options presented there...) -- note that when you scroll through those options, the name of the sound will appear on the center display, and since you mentioned them in particular, EP1 is typically Rhodes and EP2 is typically Wurly.

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/products/nord-stage-2/images/pianosect_lg.jpg

 

...and then tweak the sound with whatever effects/EQ you want (which you can also do with the organ, for that matter).

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/sites/default/files/files/products/nord-stage-2/images/effectsect_lg.jpg

 

...the only "trick" there being that you need to know to use the "shift" button to turn the "on-off" buttons there to "source" buttons (i.e. to tell it that you want to apply the effect to the piano sound, or whatever).

 

If you're ready to go one step further, it's not too much more complicated to split or layer the board on the fly, but that would take a *little* advance knowledge of the mechanics of that (i.e. using the KB Zone buttons to enable splits, then shift-use of the 3-LED "KB Zone Select" function under each section's volume knob; and then the "Slot" function which allows you to play two completely different sets of front panel controls simultaneously).

 

And if you knob-twist your way into a sound you really like and want to be able to get back to it, sure, save it into a preset.

 

That's kind of the point of the board. On your typical Kurzweil, Motif, etc., when it comes to live performance, it's largely about calling up presets with maybe some minimal real-time tweaking, not so much about assembling sounds on the fly... the Nord philosophy is opposite. Put together your sounds on the fly, and optionally save them for recall.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

The instrument felt and sounded great - but I could not easily (actually, NOT AT ALL) find a high-quality, acoustic piano appropriate for playing jazz and classical with the 20-piece string ensemble I was working with. I had to settle for an overly bright rock piano-type patch.

sounded great, too - but they weren't what I needed. Where were the vaunted Steinway/Bosendorfer/Yamaha/Fazioli samples?

 

With regard to navigation - I never owned a Stage but I did find them equally as baffling as you to get around on.

 

Since I don't do a lot of organ or synth , I went with the Nord Pianos ( I greatly preferred the more substantial action of those to the Stage btw & fwiw) .

Both the NP88 & NP2 and used them for just over 4 years combined. They were used on many gigs, both in the studio and live. I'll just say my time (good & bad) with them has been overly- chronicled here.

 

I definitely feel your sonic pain in the context you were trying to make them fit. I had similar experiences on more then one occasion. Yes, each model - Stage / Electro/ Piano - could have different pianos and not the newest, more optimum ones, depending on when the unit was sold. Being back lined I could seeing it having the older samples.

 

In my time with them I most often went with the Italian Grand / Fazioli . For what I do - jazz- it was fuller then the Studio Grand 2. This particular Yamaha based sample sounded excellent when I recorded it but live it didn't have any juice to it - even through my fairly high end system.

 

When they introduced the Bosendorfer, it was definitely thicker and had much bottom end but I never could get with it's tone. The popular Grand Lady D did sound good recorded but thin through my RCF TT08As in comparison to the Fazioli. The Grand Lady and Studio Grand 2 were the older samples and smaller in size compared to the Bosie and Fazioli , so I always heard a huge discrepancy in the thickness of those coming through speakers.

 

I sold my NP2 in the Fall of 2014. So I have no experience with their newest samples- Silver Grand & Royal Grand. Both seem to get rave reviews. If I had to guess , again being a back lined instrument - neither of those were part of the internal sound set of that particular Stage.

 

Generally speaking I think the Nord pianos do fare better in Rock/ Blues /Pop / RnB contexts ( and for those type of players ) where the volume levels are higher as opposed to more Acoustical situations such as classical and Jazz. The general tonal character to my ears is that they are bright and depending on your speakers can be even take on a clangy timbre.

 

Years ago I switched over to the NP88 from the Yamaha CP5 and was playing for this leader who told me in no uncertain terms how he felt about the Nord Piano sounds. Midway through the first set he said -- man what happened to the sound of your piano ?!! That thing sounds like nails on a chalkboard !

I told him I was "experimenting". I think on the next gig , if I remember correctly , I brought an SV-1 and he was ok with that.

 

Yeah those Nord pianos seem to be in two camps - you either love 'em or hate 'em. Usually no in between.

 

I made peace with myself in May of '14 and bought a Yamaha CP4. I've never looked back.

 

Next time maybe request a CP300. And use the 2nd default piano- Mellow Grand

[AnotherScott]

I brought an SV-1 and he was ok with that.

I know the SV1's acoustic piano doesn't earn raves, and if I listen to it critically by itself, I'm not so enamored, but when just playing, especially in an ensemble, it seems to work just fine. Kind of what people say about the ol' Kurz triple strike. State of the art? No, but somehow, often, it works. Even though it's the EPs that make it, I don't think I'd have any qualms about using the SV1's AP in a gig.

[marczellm]

I brought an SV-1 and he was ok with that.

Red

[mate stubb]

You were playing thru a Roland KC, right?

[16251]

but I could not easily (actually, NOT AT ALL) find a high-quality, acoustic piano appropriate for playing jazz and classical.

 

I agree. I could not trick my mind into thinking I was playing a real acoustic piano, which does happen with my CP4, my N2. Even my old Kurz PC88 and various Rolands were acceptable.

 

Besides owning NP2 for a month, I also took a chance on a Korg many years ago and it also lasted a month.

 

I like reading the discussions about this. Actually, the funny thing is, when I hear someone else playing a Nord acoustic piano sound, it sounds so different from when I am playing one. It very full and rich. That's how my Gas came about.

[Sam Mullins]

Actually, the funny thing is, when I hear someone else playing a Nord acoustic piano sound, it sounds so different from when I am playing one. It very full and rich. That's how my Gas came about.

 

This phenomenon has been noted several times in this forum over the years. Someone (maybe Mr. Ferris) said he got big complements from David Foster at a party who had heard it from another room and thought it was a real grand.

 

I frequently get big complements on my Stage piano sound even though I find it just OK as I play it.

[AnotherScott]

I could not trick my mind into thinking I was playing a real acoustic piano

...the funny thing is, when I hear someone else playing a Nord acoustic piano sound, it sounds so different from when I am playing one. It very full and rich.

This phenomenon has been noted several times in this forum over the years. Someone (maybe Mr. Ferris) said he got big complements from David Foster at a party who had heard it from another room and thought it was a real grand.

 

I frequently get big complements on my Stage piano sound even though I find it just OK as I play it.

I guess it's that finger-to-ear connection thing. It sounds better to the player when it "feels" right... people in the audience only know how it sounds, not how it feels. Possibly a good argument to make your Nord your unweighted board, and play its piano from another action.

[Al Quinn]

I had a Nord Stage 2 HA88 for three years. I wanted to love it but could not. More than anything the finger to ear connection fell short for acoustic piano. Although the AP piano samples sounded great when recorded they didn't sound great live. Not even through my TT08As. I now have a CP4 and am happy.

 

I guess that was a long way of saying Nords aren't for everyone, Perhaps the OPs experience is due to 1) being one of those people who don't care for Nord or 2) is playing Nords that don't have the best AP samples loaded. I'm my experience Nords APs are temperamental to amplification, so there's that possibility as well.

[Sam Mullins]

 

I frequently get big complements on my Stage piano sound even though I find it just OK as I play it.

I guess it's that finger-to-ear connection thing. It sounds better to the player when it "feels" right... people in the audience only know how it sounds, not how it feels. Possibly a good argument to make your Nord your unweighted board, and play its piano from another action.

 

Yes, it is definitely a finger to ear thing. Swapping would be an option. But I find the action a good compromise for other things. LIke it on EP sounds. Part of the original rationale for the Stage was the organs since my top tier at the time had unacceptable organs (MOX). Now that I use the Kronos on top, that isn't as much of an issue (although I still like the Nord organ a bit more.). Frankly, if I had started with the Kronos on top, I probably would have gone for CP4.

 

But everything is a compromise and I'm happy overall with the setup I have.

[eric]

I've found with the Nord Stage 2 is that the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. The first 6 months or so that I was using it, I was pretty overwhelmed with the depth of having all those sound engines available and it took me a while to get it where I needed it for live gigs.

 

After some time and lots of experimentation with the pianos, sample library, synth engine, and external capabilities (plus the various morph assignments), I have mine dialed in just right and I love it. I've been using the NS2 (and now NS2 EX) live for 6 years, which is almost the longest time I've used the same keyboard in my rig (I think my Yamaha S90 still has it beat by a few years).

 

If you'd never really played one and had it as backline, I can see it being a beast to get it to do what you want.

[Delaware Dave]

"...Someone (maybe Mr. Ferris) said he got big complements from David Foster at a party who had heard it from another room and thought it was a real grand.."

Not to be a smart ass but who cares what David Foster thinks. Are you suggesting that his ears can better discern the sounds emulating from a digital piano than the average yoke on KC?

[Iconoclast]

This phenomenon has been noted several times in this forum over the years. Someone (maybe Mr. Ferris) said he got big complements from David Foster at a party who had heard it from another room and thought it was a real grand.

 

I frequently get big complements on my Stage piano sound even though I find it just OK as I play it.

 

I don't find this unique to Nords or even keyboards. Our experience as players is sooo different from that as listeners.

 

But I will admit that the few times that I've seen someone play a Nord live it sounded fantastic to me. I myself have never even touched one.

[rockinroller]

It is my opinion that an acoustic piano sound being digitally reproduced during live performances often sounds quite different on stage than in the audience. I had a guy sit in for one song on my keyboard a few years ago (Kurzweil PC3) that featured lots of "real" piano parts and while I stood out in the crowd I could not believe how authentic the piano sound was, yet on stage it sounds extremely bright and treble-ish.

 

I gained a perspective on acoustic piano sounds years ago--that they routinely sound muddier out front, projected through PA mains, etc. than that interpretation of what you hear through your own monitor or amp on stage, and I learned to use more of a "Rock" piano vs. classical or grand, etc. setting, which, by the time it projected out to the audience sounded much more neutral than bright and artificial.

[Sam Mullins]

"...Someone (maybe Mr. Ferris) said he got big complements from David Foster at a party who had heard it from another room and thought it was a real grand.."

Not to be a smart ass but who cares what David Foster thinks. Are you suggesting that his ears can better discern the sounds emulating from a digital piano than the average yoke on KC?

 

Oh, I'm not a fan of Mr. Foster's at all...quite the opposite; I find his brand of over-produced pop quite annoying. It was merely a comment that a Nord could fool a professional from another room. In any case, the point is the same with or without the anecdote about Mr. Foster. The sound out front is often judged better than what we hear as players.

[nursers]

You're not alone on the learning curve. I've had my Electro 5 for 5 months now and only just starting to get the hang of it. The manual is appalling.....

[cphollis]

Errr, I'm on the other side of this discussion.

 

Given the way my brain works, I have found the Nords to be way intuitive, compared to the Rolands, Korgs and Yamahas I've owned. All the knobs are right there, and I've learned to get comfortable with giving them a tweak in the heat of battle.

 

I'll select a different piano voice, switch the effects, adjust the EQ, dial in the compression, add a new layer -- all in the middle of a song.

 

It took a while, but I'm there. All knobs, baby.

[Rusty Mike]

Errr, I'm on the other side of this discussion.

 

Given the way my brain works, I have found the Nords to be way intuitive, compared to the Rolands, Korgs and Yamahas I've owned. All the knobs are right there, and I've learned to get comfortable with giving them a tweak in the heat of battle.

 

I'll select a different piano voice, switch the effects, adjust the EQ, dial in the compression, add a new layer -- all in the middle of a song.

 

It took a while, but I'm there. All knobs, baby.

 

I'm with Chuck on this one. I'm constantly fiddling with the EQ and other settings to suit the room, band dynamics, etc. I'm comforted by the immediacy the Nord offers so I can dial in my sound and save it to a Live setting for the gig.

 

I guess there is a learning curve, but at the same time, it may be a case of "it's so easy, it's hard". It's also outside the paradigm of Korg, Roland and Yamaha.

 

I just bought a Stage 2EX, and considered comparable instruments such as the Forte and others. Aside from the weight (where Nord has a significant advantage), I was concerned about the lack of immediacy on the other instruments to make quick and intuitive tweaks to suit the room. Nord is also the only company to offer quality upright piano samples, which I use a lot. There are times when the resonance and character of an upright just work better than a grand. Most of the competitors include novelty uprights that mimic detuned saloon or tack pianos, which I find useless.

 

I understand where people may not connect to it, but it works very well for me.

[DanL]

You're not alone on the learning curve. I've had my Electro 5 for 5 months now and only just starting to get the hang of it. The manual is appalling.....

 

I have used the manual for my E5 about 2 times. Once for doing a split with an external board controlling 1 sound with the internal keyboard controlling another, and maybe 1 other time for something else. I had it dialed into a pretty complex rig in a couple days. The reason the manual is about the size of a pamphlet is because it's that easy to use. I've had Yamahas (S90ES and S70XS) and use a Roland FA08- and the Nords are FAR easier to get around on.

 

As far as the pianos go, I love them. I'm using my FA08 to trigger pianos and EPs from the Electro now. I have 3 XL size grands, the stereo electric grand, 2 uprights, and 7 different EPs. The grand pianos when played from the weighted board are a pleasure for me in a live setting.

[tucktronix]

Another satisfied NE5 user here..

 

Bought my E5D in August and I really like how the controls are laid out. It's great being able to menial tasks like dialing in effects and changing the level of a split without having to dive into a menu.

[TommyS]

My Nord Stage EX acoustic pianos sound terrific. From dive bar gigs to hearing it in stereo through a Clair Brothers PA , it is always a good musical experience.

[mwheels]

I find the user interfaces on Nord products to be very intuitive and brilliantly laid out. I despise cryptic menu diving - Nord allows me to make adjustments on the fly while performing.

[OrpheusNY]

I think one issue Rodan88 ran in to is that a strength of the Nord boards is that the sound in the piano and sample sections can be completely swapped out and customized to the user's needs. That asset to an individual owner becomes a potential liability as a backline instrument.

 

If this comes up frequently as an issue for you, here's an idea- when you have a couple hours free, find a friend who's got a Stage and back up his/her settings to a bundle. Then install the piano sounds you like (I'd particularly recommend the new Royal Grand and possibly the Velvet Grand if the options you're finding are too bright for your tastes), and back up your preferred sound set to another bundle, which you can bring with you to gigs where you know you'll be using a Nord. Then restore the friend's bundle so you get an idea how long it takes. You probably also want to bring a factory restore bundle so you can restore the backline instruments you customize after you use them.

 

If your customization needs are limited to a particular piano sound and one or two samples, you could also just bring the Royal Grand sample (or whatever) with you and swap it in, which would take a lot less time. You can download the piano samples at the Nord website, and you need a copy of Nord Sound Manager, also at the website. It's a very simple process to replace samples.

[stoken6]

I took a similar journey in the other direction. I GASsed for a NS2 the moment they were announced. I downloaded, devoured and digested the manual - it became bedtime reading for me. So when I got one, I knew straightaway how to modify/swap in piano samples.

 

Five years down the line, I actually use the Nord mostly in terms of calling up presets that I've created in advance. I'm still not 100% satisfied with the basic AP voices (thinness two octaves above middle C, usual story). But I agree with those who say it sounds good to the audience - when someone has soundchecked for me, I'm consistently astonished at the quality coming back to me at FoH.

 

Cheers, Mike.