Yamaha CP4 - first impressions

[voxpops]

I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

The FP4 is pre-SuperNATURAL® but actually sounded better to me. I think a few of the jazzers here (SK, Jazz+, etc.) would agree.

I'm actively looking to repurchase one. Much underrated board.

[voxpops]

Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

That is a perennial issue with Rolands. Both Yamaha and Kawai have clearer, more "bell-like" samples.

[copajaus]

Just went to a shop earlier this week to try a CP4. It will be in end of this month. So I played around with a Kurzweil Artis, a Roland Rd700NX a Yamaha S90 (Only decent Yam. board available there...), a NP88 and a Korg SV1 88.

 

My conclusion:

 

Best action RD700NX

Best sound => NP88, RD700NX, KORG SV1

 

I own a NP88 already, in my opinion it would be a perfect instrument with:

 

- More memory, why can't we load the largest sounds on the board...? Memory is cheap these days, Nord is trying to ensure we buy the newest instrument available with a little bit more memory...

- The action of the Roland

- A real L/R input on the back not the mini 3.5 inch Ipod crap which only work with headphone... Give us what my Korg Kronos has.

- XLR out

- May be a few more sounds? Whithout having to pay 4K for stage 2...?

- Included Music Sheet stand, we should not have to pay for it...

 

And I be happy... I will check the CP4 when it is available here to compare. I don't think there is a perfect instrument just yet...

[voxpops]

The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.

 

Most definitely ! Like I mentioned earlier, if the NP88/NP2 was THAT bad, I still wouldn't be using it at 2 years and counting.

I agree, although I wonder what it would be like if they utilized Fatar's newer triple-sensor wooden action.

[LX88]

I am also one of the fans of the Roland pre " Super Natural".

 

For some reason I am liking the digital pianos from the previous decade ( FP-4, RD 300GX and Yamaha CP-33 ).

 

I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.

 

I also don't get this thing of not cutting through a mix. I have had issues with just about every digital I have ever heard being too bright through typical P.A. type speakers.

 

I have never had an issue with cutting through. Just issues with getting the same sounds that I hear through a good pair of headphones to come through speakers.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

the CFX a little lacking, dynamically, and sonically a tad strident,

 

Just a thought regarding the more strident sound of the CFX. I heard it a tad in the phones in my 2nd time playing it at the GC for about 15 minutes. I found myself going to the CF on that occasion.

 

The CFX is a new sample and I think (I could be wrong) created to address the sometimes too transparent sound of the CF on the CP5/1. I think it will sit in the mix better for louder rock contexts but in doing so I think almost any sample is going to lose that softer hue, tonal character, which personally I prefer.

 

I know Nords , especially with GC type QSC fare, can have a tendency of being harsh or grating. Yet you never hear a complaint about them "cutting through or sitting well in the mix". The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.

[Dana.]

Best sound => NP88, RD700NX, KORG SV1

What about the Artis? From the demos I've heard, the new Steinway sample kicks the crap out of the others.

[voxpops]

I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.

I think if you live close to a big city with good music stores, you should be able to try most stuff (except Kawai) before you buy. But I find it easier to order something and try it out at home than spend time and money on a trip to test it in often less-than-ideal surroundings.

[Dana.]

I know Nords , especially with GC type QSC fare, can have a tendency of being harsh or grating. Yet you never hear a complaint about them "cutting through or sitting well in the mix". The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.

I've said this before a few times, when I saw Joe Jackson last year, the Nord Stage 2 he played sounded more real than any other digital piano I've heard live, and it had no problem cutting through a relatively large band.

[voxpops]

The thing the Nords have going for them are the detail of the samples-- which when recorded or used live with a good di/pre and monitors can make things easier on the ears in regard to strident, harsh or grating qualities.

I did some recording with the NP88 earlier this year, and the detail was astonishing. I struggled a little, though, trying to get the subtlety of response that I wanted using that Fatar action.

[dazzjazz]

I find it interesting that some of us here don't like the CP4' but it's likely purely on a statistical basis!

 

For me, I feel like a part of my musicianship has come back after two years in Nord-land. The finger to sound connection is great for me, something that bugged me with the NS2, as great a board as it is (and it is). I have noticed my hands work better, and are getting back in shape physically and in how my fingers curve when playing a good action.

 

I played a NS2 yesterday at work and realized for what I do (jazz piano gigs) this board is the right one for me.

[AnotherScott]

Upon further investigation, the Electro 4 still uses Generation 1 string resonance.

Right. You can see the differences summarized along the right column at

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Sound%20Libraries&cllibr=Nord_Piano_Library

 

The Long Release feature is a nice improvement too, especially for solo work.

I actually think the LR feature was a bigger improvement for them than the string resonances were! I actually didn't like any of the Nord piano sounds until they added that.

 

I'm actively looking to repurchase [an FP4-. Much underrated board.

I might have one for sale. Right now it's in the shop. The balance knob wouldn't do anything unless I held it in position. Other than that, it was fine. I'm thinking I might sell it when I get it back, though. Just too many boards!

 

 

I own a NP88 already, in my opinion it would be a perfect instrument with:

 

- More memory, why can't we load the largest sounds on the board...? Memory is cheap these days

not the kind of memory they use.

 

The action of the Roland

I agree, that's a great action. Unfortunately they're not selling it to their competitors! We're kind of stuck with what Fatar makes available, unless Nord finds some other source. Though really, with that Roland action apparently always yielding a board that weighs over 50 lbs, it wouldn't be solution for me anyway. I don't actually mind the NP action, though. Not the best, but not bad.

 

A real L/R input on the back not the mini 3.5 inch Ipod crap which only work with headphone... Give us what my Korg Kronos has.

- XLR out

...

Included Music Sheet stand, we should not have to pay for it...

minor things, that not everyone needs, and are pretty easily worked around by those who do, so they would be a low priority in my book

 

May be a few more sounds? Whithout having to pay 4K for stage 2...?

The Nord Piano 2 will do it.

 

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

[Moon Zero Two]

I have gig tomorrow - I play the first half then someone else plays the second half then there is some kind of encore - it's like a jazz showcase I guess - I play ten songs in the first half - 5 behind one singer and 5 behind the next - anyway the other pianist offered to bring his Casio PX110. I said not to worry I would bring my CP4. I will try to get a recording, I usually record everything I do but my little H4 doesn't get great quality, not postable anyway. But I will chime in with how it felt playing the CP4 and how it sounded from the audience.

[voxpops]

I find it interesting that some of us here don't like the CP4' but it's likely purely on a statistical basis!

 

For me, I feel like a part of my musicianship has come back after two years in Nord-land. The finger to sound connection is great for me, something that bugged me with the NS2, as great a board as it is (and it is). I have noticed my hands work better, and are getting back in shape physically and in how my fingers curve when playing a good action.

 

I played a NS2 yesterday at work and realized for what I do (jazz piano gigs) this board is the right one for me.

 

I think a good action counts for a lot. That's primarily why I sold the NP and ordered the CP4. If Yamaha could provide an 88-note sample set, better decay characteristics, full resonance implementation, and improved dynamics, along with that wooden action, I'd be tempted again, but I don't think it's going to happen! Even after years of software pianos offering so much more detail, it seems just a little odd that the DP manufacturer recycling ethos is still so much in evidence.

[dazzjazz]

Of course it's so subjective.

I don't hear it the way you hear it voxpops. After owning a CP33 for years and doing hundreds of gigs on it, the CP4 seems like all new upgraded sound and action to me. I love the tone of the CFX - have you heard my demo of it?

[AnotherScott]

If Yamaha could provide an 88-note sample set, better decay characteristics, full resonance implementation, and improved dynamics, along with that wooden action, I'd be tempted again, but I don't think it's going to happen! Even after years of software pianos offering so much more detail, it seems just a little odd that the DP manufacturer recycling ethos is still so much in evidence.

The CP4, while it has some new features (like the CFX piano), is largely about bringing the CP1/CP5 technology down in price/weight and simplifying the interface. I think something more along the lines of what you're looking for would probably appear in a new CP1-priced flagship before finding its way down to the more economical models. You don't usually see the big technological jumps first appear in the moderately priced boards.

[copajaus]

To keep going on what I was talking about previously;

 

- The Roland RD700NX has nice sounds, I kind of like the "layer" configuration and the tone to layer relationship it's pretty straight forward.

Somehow some sounds are "Muddy..." , some pianos and especially some EP's; I still think that a Korg SV1 or my KRONOS has very satisfying EP sounds and are No 1 for me. The NP2 is second, the Roland 3rd.

But the RH3 is not the best. I have already fixed (Under warranty) the issue with the keyed on my KRONOS 88, it's better but could improve.

 

- I did not like the ARTIS, the key response feels a little odd to me, there is some kind of "Progressive resistance" which makes playing unnatural, feels a bit like you are playing with a a sponge...! the piano did not do it either, sorry Kurzweil, it might attract more the Rock & Roll type of player.

 

- The CP4 sounds good from what I can read in this forum. I will not buy it without trying it first though.

 

- At the meantime my NP2 is my best piano in my setup.

I just don't like the way samples are kind of "Trim down" especially on the last couple of octaves. You've got to get the biggest samples possible to make it work properly and even when you do that it still "scream" a little bit for me.

 

My reference instrument at home is a Kawai K3 Upright.

 

 

 

[keyguy]

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

Since I play LH bass through a Motif rack, the NP does not work for me for exactly this reason.

[zephonic]

A lot of the perceived "mud" in Roland sounds is often their over-indulgence with the chorus. Disabling it can really clean stuff up.

 

[copajaus]

Just realise,

 

Lot of "I don't like" in what I said before, looks like the search for the perfect instrument is far from over...

Or I might be getting Old.

 

Anyhow for what it's worth, in my opinion, anything done today tend to be very "Clinical" and somewhat "Dry", only a few instruments are able to have a "Soul" as such. Are we going to talk about a Kurzweil ARTIS in 40 years? May be not. We still talk however about a 70's Rhodes EP or a Wurlitzer today... may be something is missing...?

 

 

[copajaus]

And I don't even mention an Hammond B3.

 

I should have bought one late 70's instead of the Aurora Classic and the Crumar I have back in Europe...

 

That's another story.

 

[Dana.]

A lot of the perceived "mud" in Roland sounds is often their over-indulgence with the chorus. Disabling it can really clean stuff up.

We're talking AP sounds...

[AnotherScott]

I still think that a Korg SV1 or my KRONOS has very satisfying EP sounds and are No 1 for me. The NP2 is second, the Roland 3rd.

I'd probably rank then the same way. Though I also like the Kurzweil EPs a lot.

 

Things that bug me about the NP2... You can't set it to play its piano sound from its internal keyboard while triggering its second sound over MIDI (i.e. place the two sounds on different MIDI channels); you can't use its stereo output as a dual mono output, sending piano out one jack and your other sound out the other.

Since I play LH bass through a Motif rack, the NP does not work for me for exactly this reason.

Yes, another side of the same MIDI limitation. When you split the board, you can't split the MIDI channels you're sending on.

[orangefunk]

 

I sit here reading about people who order this stuff sight unseen. I would never do that. There are too many variables in these instruments.

 

 

Good for you... Some of us have little options...

 

I have never really lived in a city where I could actually try the latest stuff out in person. Only when I lived in Oslo did I get to play stuff.. though at first it always seemed a step behind (and ridiculously expensive) ... though I admit I did buy my Kronos 61 key after trying it out first (at nearly 28,000 NOK which is near $4,600).

 

I tended to get to try stuff when I was travelling around Europe, then order it from Thomann...

 

I guess that's the pattern for most of us.

 

 

 

[voxpops]

Of course it's so subjective.

I don't hear it the way you hear it voxpops. After owning a CP33 for years and doing hundreds of gigs on it, the CP4 seems like all new upgraded sound and action to me.

I'm sure that the CP4 would seem like a big upgrade after the CP33 - but after a Nord, not so much (except for the action). And with other manufacturers providing fully mapped sample sets and sophisticated resonance etc., the CP4 seems a few years behind the curve.

 

 

I love the tone of the CFX - have you heard my demo of it?

I've heard a few, but can't remember if I've heard yours - do you have a link?

[Dave Bryce]

Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s.

Since you say you're extremely picky about piano sounds, you might consider trying different speakers. I haven't found either of those to be among the best I've heard....and I'm pretty picky about speakers.

 

The Mackies especially - IIRC, their HF driver doesn't have a lot of power, and isn't ideal for near field monitoring.

 

I believe it's much easier to make an objective evaluation of a sound source if your monitoring solution is the best it can be (both in the studio and live).

 

dB

[copajaus]

May be we end up having a new CFX sample in the Nord Piano Library...

 

[voxpops]

Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s.

Since you say you're extremely picky about piano sounds, you might consider different speakers. I haven't found either of those to be among the best I've heard....and I'm pretty picky about speakers. I think it's much easier to make an objective evaluation of a sound source if your monitoring solution is the best it can be (both in the studio and live).

 

dB

 

That's a fair point. But that was just what happened to be in the rehearsal space. Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s. Of course, I also used some decent Beyer headphones to check what was actually coming out of the piano, as I wanted to be sure my judgment wasn't being affected by the speakers.

 

Also, I've found that if I like the sound through lower end speakers, I'll like it through anything.

[Dave Bryce]

Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s.

I like those better. I'd be interested to hear if your opinion of the CP4 would have changed if you had tried those.

 

Also, I've found that if I like the sound through lower end speakers, I'll like it through anything.

I have to disagree with that - especially with PA speakers. Inexpensive, underpowered amps are a bad thing - unless you're looking for distortion - and HF drivers that are more designed for wide throw applications just don't do the job for critical monitoring.

 

dB

[voxpops]

Live, we tend to put stuff through K10s.

I like those better. I'd be interested to hear if your opinion of the CP4 would have changed if you had tried those.

 

dB

Unfortunately, no speakers or headphones could have masked the lack of sympathetic resonance, the obvious stretching or the missing dynamics.

 

However, they might have helped with the overall tone.