Yamaha CP4 - first impressions

[orangefunk]

I've just returned to playing my cp50, having spent a long time in the land of the nord electro 3hp. While I love the nord sounds, nothing (IMHO) compares to the yamaha feel. I've owned many yamaha pianos ( p100, p150, p80, cp50) and, they've all felt great to me yet, I still wander for some reason. I still have my old p150 set up in my music room and even that still feels great. I don't know but I'm guessing that, yamaha makes there own keyboard mechanisms?? I've grown to absolutely despise fatar!! At least the one they use in the 3hp! It feels cheap and after less than a year feels like it's loosening! So , I'm happy to be back in the land of yamaha.......your review has me yearning for the CP4 !! Thanks

 

To be fair.. the one in the Electro HP is a compromise intended to give the Electro series a weighted-like action without too much extra weight. The Stage 2 is a different beast action wise (I liked the action personally) and most definitely sound wise.

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

Sorry to hear the CP4 didn't work out for you Neil. I hate returning stuff, a major pia. But better then holding onto it and trying to like it, then have to hassle with selling it.

 

Yeah would love to have the CP4 over here on a few gigs, for a test run, to see how it compares with my Nord.

 

Last night this particular restaurant I played trio, backing vocalist, in, had freakishly, great acoustics. I had one RCF TT08A on a speaker pole a few feet behind me and one off to the side in wedge position for the stereo image--and I have to say, the sound of the NP2 (Fazioli XL) was one of the best I'd experienced in the two years of playing Nords.

 

The sound thinning out on the top end seemed less exacerbated as well. So consequently the Fatar on the Nord bugged me less. Funny how acoustics & speasker placement can play such an important part (as well as a good bass player & drummer ) of your overall playing experience.

 

I've heard other musicians play Yamaha DPs, and they sound fantastic. I heard someone play a CP-5 a while back and the clarity was amazing.

 

It's been awhile since I sold my CP5 but dug up this short clip that I've posted here before. An uptempo Latin groove on the Kenny Barron classic.

 

I'm still scouring CLs for a killer price on a CP1 or 5.

[orangefunk]

Sorry to hear the CP4 didn't work out for you Neil. I hate returning stuff, a major pia. But better then holding onto it and trying to like it, then have to hassle with selling it.

 

Yeah would love to have the CP4 over here on a few gigs, for a test run, to see how it compares with my Nord.

 

I am sure anything sounds good in your hands Dave!

 

 

[orangefunk]

S

It's been awhile since I sold my CP5 but dug up this short clip that I've posted here before. An uptempo Latin groove on the Kenny Barron classic.

 

I'm still scouring CLs for a killer price on a CP1 or 5.

 

I can't play that track says something about it being private.

[Dave Ferris]

I clicked on the private as opposed to public button in soundcloud, try this one.

[allan_evett]

You should adjust the type and paramters of the main chorus, and reverb, and the per layer mic-effect extensively. It can get those warm sounds. Trow in a layer, and you can even go Steinway-ish with it. You wouldn't think so from the often warbly and slightly off-sounding presets, but it can. And then it can sound full-88 and full range (real low and highs), too, and then the eq starts to act powerful, but you'd need to know about mid-low and reverb mixing, it isn't like as easy as selecting a sample, I know because I tried, it just doesn't give the good stuff away. Also, the pretty unique Spectral Component Modeling can give really strong and extremely sustained sounds, even on very accurate monitoring, and best of all, especially after the apparently necessary sound adaptions the Lexicon is very satisfied with it and becomes very alive with the sound (even with the rom patches)...

 

T.

 

So dialing things in to fit both individual taste and the particular mix is where the best stuff is.... I think that varies from keyboard to keyboard, though - and for each player; though there have been some instruments with stronger, right-out-of-the-box pianos for a variety of situations, while others tend to need more tweaking.

While most here would pick a well maintained, grand piano over a DP, getting an acoustic piano to sound right for a particular mix takes a certain amount of tweaking; so Theo's references to EQ and reverb hold much merit. There are definite similarities between onboard shaping a DP piano tone, and outboard processing of a mic'd grand piano.

 

Unless I'm playing piano in a very open, acoustic oriented live situation, tones that are somewhat bright, even exaggerated fit best in an americana / rock mix. The past two weekends I gigged with a modern country / classic rock band, and the most effective piano Tone was a 3rd party, S90XS Voice that I had brightened up considerably - and the voice was already called 'Bright S90ES' (It's a hybrid creation - using both the basic, Motif CFS III sample and the larger S6 sample; and it's eerily accurate to the name). And interestingly enough, when I switched back to the original voice for a few ballads, it sounded somewhat bloated - even during solo intros, etc.. And I tend to run the Master EQ slightly low-mid scooped. Actually another 3rd party Voice - a bright, focused S6 sound - works better for ballads, and is a very playable solo piano.

 

[Dave Bryce]

So dialing things in to fit both individual taste and the particular mix is where the best stuff is.... I think that varies from keyboard to keyboard, though - and for each player; though there have been some instruments with stronger, right-out-of-the-box pianos for a variety of situations, while others tend to need more tweaking.

While most here would pick a well maintained, grand piano over a DP, getting an acoustic piano to sound right for a particular mix takes a certain amount of tweaking; so Theo's references to EQ and reverb hold much merit. There are definite similarities between onboard shaping a DP piano tone, and outboard processing of a mic'd grand piano.

Once again, I have to mention the importance of a good sound system. It's as much of a component of the sound as the instrument itself.

 

Seriously...a large part of the acoustic piano playing experience is that more than a few pounds of wood and metal are resonaning in front of you. Air is being moved, and vibrations created...in a big way. The whole room is part of the sound. It pretty much has to be....

 

To duplicate that experience, you need components that can move air and create vibrations (incuding the low end) as accurately and viscerally satisfyingly as possible. You're already at a disadvantage in that a real piano radiates omnidirectionally, so duplicating that in a room with a speaker or two is a challenging prospect, to say the least.

 

 

Last night this particular restaurant I played trio, backing vocalist, in, had freakishly, great acoustics. I had one RCF TT08A on a speaker pole a few feet behind me and one off to the side in wedge position for the stereo image--and I have to say, the sound of the NP2 (Fazioli XL) was one of the best I'd experienced in the two years of playing Nords.

 

The sound thinning out on the top end seemed less exacerbated as well. So consequently the Fatar on the Nord bugged me less. Funny how acoustics & speasker placement can play such an important part (as well as a good bass player & drummer ) of your overall playing experience.

This.

 

dB

[timwat]

Acoustic engineers I've worked with insist the room is as much a part of the "instrument" as anything else upstream. I find myself wondering at the statements I've made so many times in the past about particular sounds, patches and keyboards "sitting better in the mix" than othersif I've never actually conducted objective, critical A/B comparisons out in the room from the audience perspective.

[orangefunk]

I clicked on the private as opposed to public button in soundcloud, try this one.

 

Nice version. I like how you guys can keep the line going, stay in the scales but then periodically go out I still think the Nord sounds better but hard to tell when the music is as nice as that!

[Phil Aiken]

Brought a CP4 home today and kind of love it. Mostly live I've been using my Nord Electro HP as a controller for Mainstage. I have grown to truly hate the action on the HP for piano. I also own a CP33 and the CP4 is a huge step forward in terms of the internal sounds, and the action is incredible for me.

However, in true Yamaha fashion, while their sales videos tout the ease of editing, that is only in terms of choosing "voices" as part of "Performances". Otherwise, same old cryptic somewhat counterintuitive multilevel menu interface.

 

One thing I need to figure out right away: How do you stop the Foot Contoller from affecting the volume on a piano patch? I did the obvious and shut the FC1 to "off" for the main patch, but this for some reason did not do it.

 

Also....am I correct in assuming that there is no way of saving a "voice".... only a performance? That seems weird. I edited a nice Wurly patch and would love to reuse it in other performances.

[Theo Verelst]

I think the Nord sounds like crap, in comparison, in almost all cases.

[timwat]

One thing I need to figure out right away: How do you stop the Foot Contoller from affecting the volume on a piano patch? I did the obvious and shut the FC1 to "off" for the main patch, but this for some reason did not do it.

 

Also....am I correct in assuming that there is no way of saving a "voice".... only a performance? That seems weird. I edited a nice Wurly patch and would love to reuse it in other performances.

 

Beethree - welcome to the club. I'm still very much in love w/ my CP4.

 

To answer your question, if what you're trying to do is get an expression pedal to only change volume on the layer, what worked for me is going into the Utility menu, go to Controller, select the appropriate FC (for me it was FC2) and change the parameter to "Data". Expression and Volume were global for me and changed both Main and Layer.

 

Now, I enabled FC2 in Layer and disabled in Main, and the pedal allows me to swell in the layer voice.

 

And yes, an earlier post in this tread noted the CP4 is always in Performance mode, there is no Voice mode, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around storing entire performances.

 

For my gig next week I'm MIDI'ing the Kronos to the CP4 - man, it sounds huge, all sorts of options to bring in with two foot pedals, and this killer CP4 action to drive it all. I've got my sax player using my PC361 for 2nd keys and we sound enormous.

[Phil Aiken]

Thanks...Yes, disabling in utility, then re-enabling in the performance does what I need for this....I think I am going to have to delve into the zone menus to add a top keyboard.

Now my other apparently simple task......i have a Wurly patch, and want to get the mod wheel to control vibrato. And I can do that, but the mod wheel wants to make the basic sound "tweezy" as well. I have an organ patch where the mod wheel controls the rotor speed and ONLY that but when I change the underlying organ "voice" the mod wheel also does the tweezy thing. So that is apparently saved with the voice, and I can't seem to get at that. It is like the voices are packaged with certain uneditable parameters. Stupid if so.

But maybe I am simply missing the way in to tweak that stuff.

 

All that aside....the pianos sound great and the action is incredible.

 

*****Edited for future generations.....You shut that mod wheel modulation off in the Play mode menu*********

[vanderSchoot]

I think the Nord sounds like crap, in comparison, in almost all cases.

Hi Theo (are you also Dutch ?, your name betrays a Dutch flavour of some kind.....)

 

I went to my local music store yesterday and I tried all involved big names once again and for me the Nord sounds the most pleasant....that is a sample that isn't as static as others.

Kurzweil (your favourite) Artis was better than the previous triple strike, but still a far to rough ff sample that switches on far to easily.

 

i am a concert piano tuner.......so pretty capable of telling how and when true ff(f) comes into to overall sound perspective and how the harmonics are blend into the overall experience.

Both the Kronos (Japanese and German grand) and Kurzweil Artis(Steinway ?) haven't got that right out of the box.

No real grand exelerates into ff the way both samples are triggered from their perspective keyboards.

 

The Yamaha CP series fail to produce the mellow tone that a real CF111 can also provide.

A real Yamaha has the capabilties to be gentile and mellow when properly intonated.

Avant grand is much better if not ''perfect'' compared to the CP series in that regard.

 

Do people really believe that a real well maintenanced CF111 on a concert stage is this bright and static as what the CP series want us to believe ?

I personally think the CF111 is a very versatile grand....not so by listening to the CP series.

 

Only Nord (despite a flawed action) creates a top end that is much more blended in the overall playing experience.

I use the Fazioli and till date I am pretty convinced by the overall tone.From pp to ff without becoming ear piercing sharp.

 

If any real Yamaha grand would sound like the CP series I would immidiatly stick some needles into the hammerheads to back off the shrill upper harmonics.

And no a real grand doesn't sound muffled afterwards when done properly.

That isn't the case when I adjust the parameters on a digital. (have an Integra with the option of altering the hammer hardness)

The tone becomes muffled right away, where on a real grand you maintain the GOOD brightness and get rid of annoying harshness and unpleasant harmonics.

 

So we all look for other thing I guess.......

To me the Nord comes closest to what I want from a digital......to emulate the dynamics and tone of a real grand as close as possible....

[Theo Verelst]

It sound like crap in comparison, check your amplification. Sample playing isn't the same as Spectral Components, no matter how you look at it. And get consistent, I am not interested in a dumb*ss bigotry game, at all.

 

Who said I prefer Kurzweil in general? I said it has a fundamentally different signal path design, which sometimes I try to find back by undoing a lot of crap that has been programmed on top, yo even have the chance to try some examples I made freely downloadable, which sound quite distinctly different than most others, and certainly than the Artis, whuch I don't care much for. I want the whole sound, and the chords to sound proper, not just a few notes, and to work with making music, that's the comparison I was talking about above.

 

I'd rather have you are a player (tuners messed up a lot of things in musical history), and I'm an Electrical Engineer, so I don't need expensive colored enclosures with standard DSP (I don't have anything *against* Nord/Clavia), I don't fall for the rather unreal hype, sorry, and honestly, I don't like Holland so...

[Phil Aiken]

Different strokes for different piano players. I have owned 2 Nord Stages, an Electro 3, an Electro 4 HP, and have an unopened Electro 4D in my basement. I love the idea of one keyboard to rule them all, but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them. It is not as much about the sound, as about the finger/sound connection. And that said even using a nice weighted action, the Nord sounds seem universally thin in the upper register to me. Just don't fit my playing style I guess.

[Phil Aiken]

You can get a very nice mellow sound out of the CP4 if you delve.

 

[orangefunk]

Yep out of the box the CP4 is kinda bright but you can make it mellow using the filter and EQ. Still I don't think its for me

 

I remember when I had the P120 I used to have the brightness/tone slider backed off to its minimum and for me it still wasn't enough. So I think Yamaha just must like that brightness.

[analogholic]

but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them. It is not as much about the sound, as about the finger/sound connection.

 

+1

 

In the unfortunate situation where I would have to choose between a better sound or a better finger to sound connection, it would be the latter.

If the Nord weighted keybeds wouldn´t have been so terrible, I would have bought a NP2/NS2 a long time ago...

 

 

[orangefunk]

Different strokes for different piano players. I have owned 2 Nord Stages, an Electro 3, an Electro 4 HP, and have an unopened Electro 4D in my basement. I love the idea of one keyboard to rule them all, but the Nord's weighted keyboards are just so mushy and clunky to me. I can't be myself on them. The Yamahas by contrast, if nothing else FEEL right to me when I play them.

 

I was going to hook up my Kronos to that action to see if the CP4 could be a keeper but I got nervous about something happening to the unit so was in a hurry to get it boxed up and sent back asap. I think the CP4 action is definitely their best yet

[Phil Aiken]

Used the Cp4 a little bit as a controller with my Mainstage rig, just to mess about, and playing Ivory, Galaxy and Scarbee was incredible compared to using my Nord HP for the same purpose.

[Doc Tonewheel]

Once again, I have to mention the importance of a good sound system. It's as much of a component of the sound as the instrument itself.

 

Seriously...a large part of the acoustic piano playing experience is that more than a few pounds of wood and metal are resonaning in front of you. Air is being moved, and vibrations created...in a big way. The whole room is part of the sound. It pretty much has to be.... dB

 

This cannot be overemphasized and was part of the reason why I enjoyed my CP300 so much. The internal speakers really helped create the overall finger to sound connection.

[AnotherScott]

Used the Cp4 a little bit as a controller with my Mainstage rig, just to mess about, and playing Ivory, Galaxy and Scarbee was incredible compared to using my Nord HP for the same purpose.

...though the Nord HA action is much better than the HP

[Aidan]

BadMister in da house...

 

[video:youtube]

[Al Coda]

BadMister in da house...

 

cool !

 

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX6pqzOwVvU

 

A.C.

[allan_evett]

BadMister in da house...

 

[video:youtube]

 

Very educating and enlightening; loads o' potential here - for both current and vintage keyboard sounds.

Though I'd noticed some detailed functions / attrbutes trimmed from the CP1 / 5 (based on the experience and observations of users here), there's an awful lot of useful stuff in this instrument for working musicians. Especially intrigued by the inclusion of several preamp models for the ep's, plus the variety of effects available overall. For those who need a choice of authentic pianos tones for gigging - plus spot-on Rhodes, Wurli, clav, and CP-80 - the CP4 appears to cover the bases solidly, and then some. While there is already a strong degree of vintage mojo present with the ep's and clavs, I suspect that vintage, acoustic piano tones could be easily dialed in - via EQ settings and the onboard VCM effects. For my tastes, this makes the related parts of the Nord Stage 2 engine unnecessary; and while it's a cool instrument in many ways, I'm glad I didn't invest in a Korg SV-1.

 

While no one keyboard can quite be the ultimate, all-around instrument to cover each base, this one looks to be a highly versatile problem solver in a few important areas. I will have to play a CP4. Just need to check and see if there's one in Denver - about an hour away. Colorado is not a high temple for music technology

 

[Phil Aiken]

Early Wish list:

 

I wish in master controller mode, when you select a slider to correspond to a zone you could:

1. Prevent/enable info from being transmitted by using the buttons above the sliders.

2. Freely assign CC#'s to the sliders.

 

Globally toggle master controller mode on and off. This would make it easier to maintain multiple permutations of gear setups with the same patches, etc.

 

I wish you could edit and store "voices" and their associated parameters....even though you can copy them from other performances, which is cool.

 

 

 

 

[Jazzed]

Time to join the party...

 

http://i.imgur.com/jY5JrjT.jpg

 

I actually do kind of understand some of the complaints by those who disliked it, in particular the want for more resonant sound when sustaining a lot of notes, but to me, despite that drawback, it was on the whole the best sounding and by far the most playable stage piano in store and it was a pretty obvious winning choice.

 

It's been a while since I actually played with a Nord Piano and the RD-700NX, so it was a lot of fun to actually do the comparison instead of just reading about them.

 

Both the Nord and the Roland had much more obvious sympathetic resonance, but the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection, and I find that Yamaha does that best.

 

I haven't looked at the manual at all yet, but off-hand, does anyone know if there is a way to have the sound of held notes not cut off when you switch patches?

[LX88]

I am probably not a big fan of digitally reproduced sympathetic string resonance.

 

I always thought that the Yamaha CP33 did a good job of avoiding too much of it. Of course it has some.

 

But when you start stacking tones in chords ( correct me if I am wrong) but some of this starts to clash.

 

There are boards that I am not going to mention that strive for this resonance. I think Yamaha has done well not too make it too much of a priority.

 

In the CP33( which I have heard a lot) the tones seem balanced and nothing sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

I haven't gotten near a CP-4 yet but I hope for an "update" on the CP33 principle, with of course some good EP's included in a lighter package, and with improved action.

[Dave Ferris]

If you can execute "Joy Spring' or "Bouncin' with Bud" on it--it's a good action.