Yamaha CP4 - first impressions

[Dave Bryce]

the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection

^This.^

 

I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others. The Giga stuff was really notable in that area for me.

 

I've always thought sample libraries had it really tough in that they never knew what brand of keyboard was going to be triggering them....

 

dB

[Theo Verelst]

...

I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others....

dB

 

Playing with the amount of energy that you put into the piano, by also working with the phase of the (lower) notes is another thing samples cannot do. And the resonance of those all strings is a complicated effect to get right, in my book!

 

T.

[burningbusch]

the tone of the Yamaha (all three of its pianos really) and in particular the dynamics and the way the action connects with the dynamic response is awesome. I think that's what people mean when they talk about finger/sound connection

^This.^

 

I've found sample sets which, while individual notes or groups of a few notes examine well under a microscope, just aren't as much fun to play as others. The Giga stuff was really notable in that area for me.

 

I've always thought sample libraries had it really tough in that they never knew what brand of keyboard was going to be triggering them....

 

dB

This cuts both ways. Having enough velocity layers of multisamples (generally 8+) allows you to reposition those velocity layers in a variety of ways. This can be done to affect tone, playability or both. Layers at the extreme(s) can be eliminated; others can be scrunched or given more space. For example, I resampled all of the Nord pianos from my 4D and brought them into the Kronos. I did my best to sample them at the velocity break, which was easier to accomplish with the EPs vs. the APs. The point is, once in the Kronos (or any sampler) I could adjust the layers to suit my playing style and get them to respond exactly how wanted, something that cannot be done on the native Nord. This has been a great frustration for me over the years with DPs and similar preset instruments that generally have prescribed sample mapping and limited adjustments for touch response (often just normal, hard, soft).

 

With software pianos you're fighting a number of things not present in hardware, mainly MIDI slop and latency. MIDI slop is still too prevalent (Logic, MainStage, DP) when used to play back/monitor synths live. Latency is what it is. The USB/Firewire era was a step backward from PCI but Thunderbolt fixes that. On the other hand, many soft piano provide a variety of sample mappings in their presets and I don't know of any that don't offer completely programmable velocity response.

 

I've heard the argument that clever programming trumps gigabytes of samples. I think it's true and untrue. What people need to understand about gigabyte instruments is there is no direct relationship between the number/size of the samples and the improvement in sound, for example you shouldn't expect a 1000MB instrument to sound 10x better than a 100MB instrument. Also if you have, let's say, a 4GB piano there is a VERY high probability you'll never hear all of those samples. Most, in fact, will remain unheard in normal playing. It's probably best to view the size requirements of these giga-streaming instruments as being created dynamically. For example, if a piano piece requires 330 notes (45 which are unique) with the longest being held for 4 seconds and it's determined this uses 230MB of samples, with sample streaming technology a 230MB piano is dynamically created for you when you play that piece. If the next piece requires 450MB, it too is dynamically created on the spot. In contrast, someone tasked with creating a piano in, let's say, 64MB of RAM/ROM from 4GBs of raw samples has a challenge ahead of him. Compromises are made and clever programming employed in order to get it all to fit and still sound right. And these can sound good, but often depending on what is played and how fussy/observant one is. One of the problems for me is that often the more I play these, the more compromises my ear uncovers and the more they bug me. Also, understand if that same "230MB piece" is played using the non-streaming 64MB RAM/ROM sample, not all 64MBs are used. Like the 4GB, many notes and velocities are never heard. As it wasn't created dynamically, it might have been more like 15-20MBs of samples that were actually heard.

 

Regarding the Yamaha CPs, I fully agree that the finger-to-sound connection is probably the best feature of these DPs. I had the CP-1 very early on (bought one of the NAMM demo units prior to them being readily available in stores). I believe this exceptional finger-to-sound connection is the result of a) an excellent, HIGHLY responsive action, b) the tonal change for each note is completely linear (first in a Yamaha DP), c) no MIDI slop/latency. It's a players delight, so long as you're delighted with the overall sound. I think out of all these DPs, the Nord sounds the best. Their large pianos are very nicely crafted and youre hearing pure samples that were recorded with some degree room ambience. Nord's use of long loops, long attack portion and minimal stretching goes a long way in creating pianos that have minimal audible compromises. With Roland and Yamaha theyre using technology to produce linear touch response that I feel adds artificialness, sterility to the soundnot huge but enough that I wouldnt record with either where I would with the Nord. For live playing I dont see it as a big deal at all. If you play better on the Yamaha CP-4 than anything else (a very real possibility), that IS a big deal and could easily trump all other concerns.

 

Lastly, this isnt really a response to Dave (he knows this stuff better than I) but rather to a number of things posted above.

 

Busch.

[timwat]

Busch, great post. Thanks, very helpful in clarifying concepts to a non-programmer like me.

[ITGITC]

 

Busch - thank you for this insight.

 

Have you any links to additional information on this topic that you can share? (Have you written white papers or books?)

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

 

PS - I'm still using the Firebox you sold me a few years back. Thanks for that!

 

[orangefunk]

I think in digi-piano land there really is no "one size fits all". I too like the Kronos pianos esp if being controlled from a good keyed (I only have a K61 as I sold my RD700GX a few months back). I also like the Nord Pianos and the V-Piano (which doesn't get much love these days!)

 

We certainly live in a different world from 1980s when I first started playing. All I had back then was RD300S (the old one!) and I thought that was the bees knees thru my 12 bit Alesis Midifex so did a lot of my band mates

 

I really do wish I could have loved the CP4 because the action and the E-Piano (Rhodes 75) was really cool but I've had so many digital pianos over the last decade that I guess I expected more

 

 

[AnotherScott]

I resampled all of the Nord pianos from my 4D and brought them into the Kronos. I did my best to sample them at the velocity break, which was easier to accomplish with the EPs vs. the APs. The point is, once in the Kronos (or any sampler) I could adjust the layers to suit my playing style and get them to respond exactly how wanted, something that cannot be done on the native Nord.

Very interesting project! How do you feel the results compare to, not just playing the Nord pianos from within the Nord (triggered from weighted action), but also to playing the native Kronos pianos? Did you find a way to duplicate/simulate the Nord's string resonance effect, or did you just feel it was a worthwhile trade-off? (Though the 4D does not have as sophisticated version of the string resonance as the Nord Piano and Nord Stage 2 do to begin with.)

 

[Aidan]

The sticking point of the Nord, long term, for me comes back to both the action and available velocity curves. I played a pretty ancient Clavinova in church this morning (CVP207) and although the stock grand piano sound isn't pinch on contemporary instruments, but I was still able to play more expressively on it than I can on my Stage.

 

I really want Nord to hurry up and upgrade the OS of the Stage so we get the new velocity curve featured on the NP latest update. I've heard mixed opinions about this I know Dave Ferris didn't feel it was that significant.

 

If I agree, I think the New Year will probably see me switch allegiances to the CP4, to be frank, but I want to get the holidays and my tax bill out of the way before I make a move!

[AnotherScott]

If someone feels that the Nord would work for them if only they could better customize the velocity response, I think a solution could be to turn Local Off, go MIDI Out into one of these:

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodvel.htm

and then go from there back into the MIDI In.

[burningbusch]

Busch - thank you for this insight.

 

Have you any links to additional information on this topic that you can share? (Have you written white papers or books?)

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

 

PS - I'm still using the Firebox you sold me a few years back. Thanks for that!

 

Thanks Gas, no I haven't seen much written about this. I'm just making it up as I go, so reader beware. Glad to hear the FB is getting use.

 

Busch.

[burningbusch]

Very interesting project! How do you feel the results compare to, not just playing the Nord pianos from within the Nord (triggered from weighted action), but also to playing the native Kronos pianos? Did you find a way to duplicate/simulate the Nord's string resonance effect, or did you just feel it was a worthwhile trade-off? (Though the 4D does not have as sophisticated version of the string resonance as the Nord Piano and Nord Stage 2 do to begin with.)

 

I haven't done a lot of comparisons between the the K and the original, only to say I think most people would be hard pressed to hear a difference between a phrase played back on one or the other. There is an FX on the Kronos that simulates pedal down resonance. Used lightly and properly EQed it can help to fill in the cracks.

 

Busch.

[zephonic]

The sticking point of the Nord, long term, for me comes back to both the action and available velocity curves. I played a pretty ancient Clavinova in church this morning (CVP207) and although the stock grand piano sound isn't pinch on contemporary instruments, but I was still able to play more expressively on it than I can on my Stage.

 

Goes to show it really is a personal thing. To me, clavinovas are generally as responsive as an anvil and, accordingly, I tend to play as expressive as a blacksmith when I have to use one.

 

Despite the light action and sub-optimal velocity curves, the NP is the one that gets out of the way and lets me just do my thing. Mostly.

[orangefunk]

Yeah, I dunno if the feel of the Nords changed during their production run but two I played this year felt great pretty Fender Rhodesy even maybe not for all though eh?

[Aidan]

Neil, I think the EP velocity curves are fine - you can go from "really pounding it" to "hiccup and it barks" with no problem. The pianos really need a notch back from the heaviest touch, and this is where I'm hoping an OS update might help, as it seems to have done somewhat on the NP. Scott, the MIDI solutions box is interesting but rather fiddly to set-up each time, and not cheap at over 100UKP from Thomann.

[orangefunk]

I agree Aidan, seems a shortcoming not to permit any editing with respect to velocity curves. Not sure of the rationale really...

[AnotherScott]

Scott, the MIDI solutions box is interesting but rather fiddly to set-up each time, and not cheap at over 100UKP from Thomann.

In terms of settings, you don't have to set it up each time, it remembers your last settings. Or if you meant the nuisance of physically setting it up, I'd look for a way to velcro it to the board and leave a couple of short MIDI cables permanently connected, so it's just "there." The issue there becomes one of making sure your case accommodates it (i.e. allows you to put the board into the case with things plugged into its MIDI ports, and clearance for the "lump" that is the box itself). Maybe some cut-outs in the foam, if it's custom fitted that way.

[Aidan]

OK, so what sort of idiot buys a DP with NAAM only days away? Er...

 

http://www.goldstraw.com/images/cp4.jpg

 

 

Back story: I had a call in to Aaron at the gloriously-named PMT in Manchester to give us a shout when they had one in. Earlier this week, he called me, and I went up today to check it out...

 

Yeah, I could've waited for NAAM but nothing from there is likely to be available until halfway through this year. I'd obviously seen the new Roland and, bleh. My bread and butter gigs have always been weddings and although the NS2 sounds great and plays OK, I badly needed a more conservative-looking axe. This is it.

 

More detailed comments in a few days but for now, yes, it plays as well as others here have told you and sounds very nice. An hour or so on it has been something of a wake-up call to tone up hands - I've been playing the Stage almost 90% of the time for the last couple of months, with few opportunities to sit down at my upright. It really shows on brief acquaintance with the Yamaha.

 

Others will probably want to be sensible, sit back and wait for NAAM but I just felt the time was right. Even if Nord come up with a hugely improved Stage 3, with a great action, it would still be red. There's only really Kawai to show their hand and although I love their acoustics, I've never felt the same love for their digitals.

 

Now, please excuse me, I need to go work those chops up a bit!

[Dana.]

How soon before it goes up in the Garage Sale? Anyone want to start a pool?

[Aidan]

Don't hold your breath, Dana!

[Phil Aiken]

Yeah, I dunno if the feel of the Nords changed during their production run but two I played this year felt great pretty Fender Rhodesy even maybe not for all though eh?

 

The Electro HP and the StageII (and Piano) apparently use different weighted actions, with the Electro being the weaker of the bunch. I could not get on with the Electro HP, and used to own a Stage EX, which I found similar. I'd like to play a Stage II to check it out, but I have abandoned the "one board to rule them all" philosophy.

 

[The Piano Man]

Congrats Aidan, great choice! I own a Stage 2 as well and know what you mean about the action. I have been eyeing up the CP4... great action, nice bright Yamaha piano tones, xlr outputs, sleek black design, 17.5kg... What's not to like?

 

Very disappointed on initial look at the RD800. My first ever piano was a Roland RD but the new model just doesn't impress me... It looks cheap and plastic, sounds average in the videos I've seen, has a figure of 8 power socket, just seems dull overall and still weighs over 21kg. Of course, I should wait to try it in person but... Unimpressed so far

 

Enjoy the CP4!

[BradD]

I got mine yesterday. So far I'm very impressed. In addition to the great acoustic pianos and Rhodes, the strings were a nice surprise. I found them very useable.

[Manolios]

It's a great board, a biiig step up and improvement from the CP5. I love it and didn't want to wait either...

 

Congrats and enjoy!

[Theo Verelst]

A short trick for a fast edit impression: throw out the mic-simulation, put in a eq in the insert instead, change the global chorus effect to another than the standard one, and mix it in while trying a few mid range chords.

 

T

[Moon Zero Two]

Welcome to the CP4 club.

[allan_evett]

Don't hold your breath, Dana!

 

Think of it this way, Aidan: Dana could do a dual pool - having bets placed on which of the two of us cave first, and place our CP4's on KC Garage Sale .

I am looking forward to reading your initial, gigging impressions of the CP4, though. While there are some great choices available now (including the almost available RD-800, which appears solid in its own right), I suspect you're not going to regret picking up the CP4 - even this close to NAMM.

 

BTW: I've just about finished initial programming of my CP4 sound set. So far, it's been gigged live once (same day I bought it), and used on a couple of small, studio projects (recording tracks into Logic ProX for a client). I'll post updates, and additional reviews, once I've used a greater variety of the sounds live. Two thoughts for now, though: The action does provide a good workout; reminds me of the C5 I've used for dance classes. The additional sounds- beyond pianos and eps (which are stellar, BTW) - are quite good. With a little editing, some Performances have come together that will allow the CP4 to cover single keyboard gigs - even ones with a moderate amount of synth content. Having a solid set of core, Motif tones, some basic editing features, and fairly well appointed dual effects generators - per layer - has been helpful.

 

[Doerfler]

Even if Nord come up with a hugely improved Stage 3, with a great action, it would still be red.

 

sure as the sun is gonna shine

[drawback]

OK, so what sort of idiot buys a DP with NAAM only days away? Er...

 

http://www.goldstraw.com/images/cp4.jpg

 

 

Back story: I had a call in to Aaron at the gloriously-named PMT in Manchester to give us a shout when they had one in. Earlier this week, he called me, and I went up today to check it out...

 

Yeah, I could've waited for NAAM but nothing from there is likely to be available until halfway through this year. I'd obviously seen the new Roland and, bleh. My bread and butter gigs have always been weddings and although the NS2 sounds great and plays OK, I badly needed a more conservative-looking axe. This is it.

 

More detailed comments in a few days but for now, yes, it plays as well as others here have told you and sounds very nice. An hour or so on it has been something of a wake-up call to tone up hands - I've been playing the Stage almost 90% of the time for the last couple of months, with few opportunities to sit down at my upright. It really shows on brief acquaintance with the Yamaha.

 

Others will probably want to be sensible, sit back and wait for NAAM but I just felt the time was right. Even if Nord come up with a hugely improved Stage 3, with a great action, it would still be red. There's only really Kawai to show their hand and although I love their acoustics, I've never felt the same love for their digitals.

 

Now, please excuse me, I need to go work those chops up a bit!

 

You haven't updated your sig ... not committed yet, or what?

 

 

[Aidan]

Fixed!

[88rm88]

Hey folks,

New to this forum and 1 month owner of a CP4. I cannot seem to make the split voice (L side) sustain with the pedal.(FC2?) I've been over the manuals more than a few times, but I may be dense. Just possibly.

Must I use another FS? (assignable)

Thanks!

(if this has already been discussed, my apologies)