Yamaha CP4 - first impressions

[agitato]

Am presently playing a kawai es4. Does anyone think the es7 would be a better upgrade than a cp4, built-in speakers and 10 or so more pounds, notwithstanding?

[orangefunk]

OK. Some dissenters.... interesting.

 

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person... still... the Nord Stage is almost x2 the price here and I am sure a new model must be in the making...

 

Hmm... decisions decisions...

[AnotherScott]

OK. Some dissenters.... interesting.

 

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person... still... the Nord Stage is almost x2 the price here

The NS2 has tons of other capabilities. The Nord closest to the CP4 would be the Nord Piano 2, i.e. lacking the organ and VA synth functionalities. Though either Nord can do some things the Yamaha can't, and vice versa.

[Dana.]

I'm not sure what those of you who are disappointed/underwhelmed (voxpops, Nicky, etc.) were expecting. Essentially, the CP4 is a refinement of the Yamaha sound, action, UI, etc. So that's what the term "best yet" refers to, not "best digital piano yet made by any manufacturer ever." You guys have played Yamaha digital pianos enough to know what you were in for.

[voxpops]

OK. Some dissenters.... interesting.

 

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person.

Always the best policy, but difficult for many of us. Fortunately, I was able to return mine with no costs incurred.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a good DP, but it just didn't gel with me. I found the CFX a little lacking, dynamically, and sonically a tad strident, and none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action). But as Dave Ferris said, it is more even in response than the Nord. Also, chords seemed a little less harmonically coherent than on some DPs, and certain chromatic runs bugged the hell out of me, as the results sounded more like using a pitch bend wheel than playing distinct notes (unacceptable to me in a $2k piano). While I accepted all that with the $600 P-105, I did not expect it to be as egregiously obvious in Yamaha's best ever stage piano. In addition, although the attack samples are longer than some, the decay was typically static; for 95% of the stuff I play, that would not be an issue, but I would hesitate to record with it. To be honest, depending on the action and finger/sound connection, I think the CP40 might be just as useful, given that the older CF samples are the most pleasing (to me), and I found the '75 Rhodes the most useful.

 

One really good sample, as others have pointed out, is the acoustic bass - that really shines, and may sway those who need to play a lot of LH bass. The 77 Wurli is also well done (better than many). Organs are outdated ROMpler fare (and not as good as those in the PX-5S, IMO), strings are OK but Roland's are better, and I ignored most of the rest of the offering as I wouldn't have used other sounds much. Of course YMMV - considerably.

 

As has been remarked upon, the aesthetic is part of the price you pay for the weight reduction, but it does have a particularly Soviet brutalist look. Also, when I picked it up by its ends to put it back in the box, the plastic cheeks flexed, and I could imagine those getting cracked quite easily. I got the impression that resale value would not hold up.

 

Overall, I think that if you need a tool for a particular type of gig, then the CP4 may be the best fit, given the dearth of high quality instruments at modest weight, but if (like me) you need the instrument to provide a modicum of inspiration, you may want to check it out thoroughly before parting with your cash.

 

[voxpops]

Essentially, the CP4 is a refinement of the Yamaha sound, action, UI, etc. So that's what the term "best yet" refers to, not "best digital piano yet made by any manufacturer ever." You guys have played Yamaha digital pianos enough to know what you were in for.

 

I never expected it to be the best by any manufacturer, but I was guilty of being swayed by early glowing reports and, yes, by the marketing. Having been rather impressed by the lowly P-105, I was expecting it to be (perhaps unrealistically) considerably more refined than it actually is, in terms of sound. The action, I think, is its best feature, and that may be enough for many players.

 

As for knowing what I was in for, given that I've avoided Yamaha DPs for years due to what I perceive as lack of innovation and a certain sterility, I succumbed to the notion that, by 2013, surely things had changed. So, yes, I should have known! But it was worth a try.

[keyguy]

I have not used mine in the "full band" context, as of yet, only jazz trio. The cp4 did a fine job for me. I would expect the "full band" experience to be less challenging than the jazz trio. Granted, I'm a Yamaha fan, but to me, the CP4 is a vast improvement over previous Yamaha offerings (at least in a live context). Action, sounds, user interface(especially)and weight. While I agree with the aesthetics comments, I believe it's a fair trade off for the weight reduction. YMMV, but I never could get on with the Nord piano, especially given the MIDI limitations.

[AnotherScott]

none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

 

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds

[Dave Bryce]

Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

 

Not looking to cast any aspersions - just curious. I did most of my eval using the 2.1 Chris Pelonis Model 42 system and ADAM A7s in my studio, and the rest using a stereo Line 6 Stage Source L2t rig.

 

Actually, it'd be interesting to know what sound systems the people who are digging it are using, too...

 

dB

[voxpops]

Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

I set it up with a pair of Mackie SRM350s and also a pair of Roland CM30s. I considered taking it into the studio and running it through my Yamaha HS80s, but wanted to keep it in a gigging context, as that's how it would have been used. Unfortunately, whatever I ran it through, the stretching and decay issues would have been equally obvious.

 

Again, though, I should point out that it is a good DP. I am extremely picky over my piano sound, and have had issues with both Casio and Kawai in that respect. Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

[voxpops]

none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

 

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds

 

Unfortunately the 4D won't hold much in the way of pianos. I'd wait until Nord adds drawbars to either its Electro 5 or Stage 3 models, and has sufficient memory for a good selection.

[AnotherScott]

Unfortunately the 4D won't hold much in the way of pianos. .

True. But I thought it was interesting that their newest XL is the first one that could fit--albeit just barely--into a 4D. So if you just need one good piano sound...

[keyguy]

Those of you who aren't digging the CP4 - what kind of sound systems do you use?

 

Not looking to cast any aspersions - just curious. I did most of my eval using the 2.1 Chris Pelonis Model 42 system and ADAM A7s in my studio, and the rest using a stereo Line 6 Stage Source L2t rig.

 

Actually, it'd be interesting to know what sound systems the people who are digging it are using, too...

 

dB

I am using the famous Accugroove rig, with a pair of Tri112's through a QSC PLX1804. The sound is stellar. The sound isn't an easy move, but it lives in ATA cases on wheels, inside a trailer.

[ITGITC]

 

none of the pianos allowed me to "suspend disbelief" in the way the Nord did (if I ignored the action)

Have you ever tried playing the Nord Piano from an action that you prefer?

 

I think that a nice combo for a Nord piano-sound fan would be to get an Electro 4D and put it over whatever weighted action you like the feel of (maybe a PX-350 or PX-5S). Use the weighted action to play the Nord's piano sound, and fall back on the weighted action board's lesser piano sound only when you need to simultaneously play organ (since the Nord can't produce both sounds at the same time). It could be a very light rig, weighted and unweighted actions, quality piano, quality organ, still with a variety of other sounds

 

The problem with this idea, Scott, is that the Nord Electro 4D doesn't have the 4 Dynamic Response Curves for customizing the keyboard response to your playing style.

 

This makes a HUGE difference for me not only in the playability of acoustic piano sounds, but Rhodes, Wurlitzer, and Clavinet sounds too.

 

Tom

 

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord%20electro%204/images/e4-panel-piano.jpg

 

Piano and Sample Library section. Nord Electro 4D SW61 (left) - Nord Electro 4 HP / SW73

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

The problem with this idea, Scott, is that the Nord Electro 4D doesn't have the 4 Dynamic Response Curves for customizing the keyboard response to your playing style.

Ah. I wonder how much you could compensate for that by selecting different velocity curves on your weighted controller (PX-5S or whatever).

 

There is also a trade-off in that the Electro versions of the samples don't have the note-down-pedal-up string resonances of the NP/NS2 models. Though for live gigging, I wonder how noticeable that subtlety would be. (Guess it also depends somewhat on your repertoire and playing style, whether you play a lot without pedal, etc.)

[orangefunk]

OK. Some dissenters.... interesting.

 

As I have not received mine yet I am wondering if I should cancel it until I can try one in person.

Always the best policy, but difficult for many of us. Fortunately, I was able to return mine with no costs incurred.

 

Yeah same situation. Nearest place I could try one is over 1hr away by train... and the train journey is about $60 here, plus they don't even have them in the stores and probably won't until around/after xmas.

[Dana.]

Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

[Marillo]

Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

 

Sure the PX5-S is a powerful axe with many other features, but for piano purists surely the CP-4 is a better option?

 

For me though this all boils down to action and playing experience. I've long since given up believing that the SOUND of a DP will be anything more than a good approximation of an acoustic, so it's about how much the action keeps my fingers in shape ready for whenever I play the real thing.

 

Voxpops I know you've got a Roland FP-50...do you not find Roland's Ivory Feel-G action on that frustrating? I'm currently selling my FP4-F with the same action because I'm finding it too frustrating and sluggish these days.

[Dana.]

Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

It doesn't. And I think it would be quite obvious if someone on the forum who has both boards did an A/B test for everyone to hear.

[keyguy]

Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

[orangefunk]

The NS2 has tons of other capabilities. The Nord closest to the CP4 would be the Nord Piano 2, i.e. lacking the organ and VA synth functionalities. Though either Nord can do some things the Yamaha can't, and vice versa.

 

Yeah I can see that but there is cost cutting involved there too... the action in particular. There must be an update around the corner.... those Rhodes sounds have the right tone but need more dynamics and some kind of harmonic overtone for when chords are played... At a recent session I did in Warsaw I was shocked at how limiting those were until I put overdrive on it to mask the switching... there really should be better Rhodes sounds happening to command the sub 3k price (British pounds).

 

But I do concede it is a damn nice board!!!

[ITGITC]

 

There is also a trade-off in that the Electro versions of the samples don't have the note-down-pedal-up string resonances of the NP/NS2 models. Though for live gigging, I wonder how noticeable that subtlety would be. (Guess it also depends somewhat on your repertoire and playing style, whether you play a lot without pedal, etc.)

 

Well, sure they do.

 

From Nord's website:

 

The acoustic grand pianos and uprights are all available in three sizes; large, medium and small. Please note that these three sizes uses the same amount of zones and velocity levels, which means that they have the same great expressiveness and sound quality. Some pianos are even available in a XL version, that feature full sample mapping. The differences between the sizes are in the amount of String Resonance samples. This can help you optimize the memory usage in your Nord unit.

 

The Lrg, Med and Sml sizes share the same amount of velocity layers, and the same number of zones that are mapped across the keyboard. This means that you can rely on a consistent quality in regards to the playability and expressiveness in the basic sound of every piano, no matter which of these sizes you choose to install in your Nord Piano Library compatible unit.

 

The Extra Large versions are fully mapped accross the keyboard which increases the size a bit. The velocity layers are the same as on the other sizes.

 

The Large versions have String Resonance samples all across the keyboard, providing you with a very full sound.

 

The Medium versions have String Resonance samples in the important middle region of the range, but omit these in the lowest and the highest areas. This gives you a good ratio of functionality and size.

 

Sml is the version that uses the least amount of space in the piano memory, but still carry a big and powerful punch. This version does not contain any String Resonance samples at all. If an Sml piano is selected in the Nord unit, the String Resonance feature (if applicable) will be disabled.

 

In my Electro 3 HP, I can load the Large sample set up to 180MB with string resonance samples all across the keyboard.

 

Although I can load only one, that one really nice sample is often all I need.

 

The Large Italian Grand Fazioli is 97.3MB. It's the largest "Large" sample of them all. It will fit.

 

However, the Extra Large version is 182.1MB. It won't.

 

Comparison chart

 

I really do like this board.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dana.]

I've tried to like Roland pianos and even bought an FP4, but I could never make it cut through a band mix and the left end of the keyboard was muddy, at least in a band setting. It was OK for solo work. YMMV.

The FP4 is pre-SuperNATURAL® but actually sounded better to me. I think a few of the jazzers here (SK, Jazz+, etc.) would agree.

[Dana.]

those Rhodes sounds have the right tone but need more dynamics and some kind of harmonic overtone for when chords are played... At a recent session I did in Warsaw I was shocked at how limiting those were until I put overdrive on it to mask the switching... there really should be better Rhodes sounds happening to command the sub 3k price (British pounds).

Are you including the Bright Tines and Sparkle Top samples in this criticism or just the Mark I, Mark II, and Mark V samples?

[AnotherScott]

The Nord Electro 4, Nord Piano 2, and NS2 have both kinds of string resonance:

... pedal down

... pedal up, key down

 

but the Electro lacks the second kind. It's the main distinction between what they refer to as "generation 1" and "generation 2"

[zephonic]

The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ITGITC]

 

The Nord Electro 4, Nord Piano 2, and NS2 have both kinds of string resonance:

... pedal down

... pedal up, key down

 

but the Electro lacks the second kind. It's the main distinction between what they refer to as "generation 1" and "generation 2"

 

Hmmmmmm... I did not know this.

 

I've looked all over Nord's site and could only find this:

 

Advanced String Resonance reproduces the intricate interplay of piano strings resonating at their fundamental or harmonic frequencies when other notes are played on our Upright and Grand piano sounds.

 

And this with regards to pedal noise:

 

Pedal Noise recreates the mechanical sounds of lifting and releasing the damper mechanism, producing the characteristic thomp and sizzle sounds. The Pedal Noise feature responds dynamically to the force/momentum used when pressing or releasing the sustain pedal on the Nord Triple Pedal.

 

Upon further investigation, the Electro 4 still uses Generation 1 string resonance (not Gen 2 as you mention above). KLONK

 

To my ears, Nord's string resonance really improves the sound. The Long Release feature is a nice improvement too, especially for solo work.

 

Thanks, Scott.

 

 

 

 

[voxpops]

Roland and Nord are certainly not perfect either, but they seem to be working to try to overcome the limitations inherent in hardware DPs.

Can you expand on how you think Roland is doing this? The only advantage I've found in their SuperNATURAL® b.s. is to smooth out velocity layers. Tonally, I find the AP sounds thin, and they have a strange steely overtone. I just don't think Roland knows how a piano should sound.

I think most manufacturers are now smoothing out velocity switching. The big difference with Roland's SN, to me, is the much more natural-sounding decay, and the wider dynamic range. Their resonance implementation is also good, with both damper and sympathetic resonance available in even the mid-range FP-50. In addition, both Roland and Kawai have long ago dumped stretching, utilizing 88-note samples.

 

This doesn't necessarily mean they sound great - there's a certain dullness to most SN pianos (and they don't always sit well in a mix), but they do respond very well, generally, and have good finger/sound connection.

[Dave Ferris]

The action on the NP88 isn't the best, but you can make it work. I know I have played plenty of acoustic pianos that were worse.

 

Most definitely ! Like I mentioned earlier, if the NP88/NP2 was THAT bad, I still wouldn't be using it at 2 years and counting.

 

edit-man ...a lot of posting here. I had to add quotes to make it relevant to the thread..

[voxpops]

Admittedly this is only from demos but I just can't believe the Casio PX5-S comes close to the Yamaha CP-4 in terms of JUST piano sound.

They're different. The overall tonal quality of the Casio is pretty good, IMO, but it suffers from the "plinkiness" problem that has been described by many of us. I couldn't live with that, unfortunately, whereas I could live with the overall tone of the Yamaha (just not some of the other issues).

 

Voxpops I know you've got a Roland FP-50...do you not find Roland's Ivory Feel-G action on that frustrating?

Yes.