Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Craig MacDonald]

Jazzwee,

 

The VR-09 is a quick an inexpensive answer.. there's some compromises but it will get you started now rather than later.

 

One other point.. None of the 61 note versions of these keyboards has a weighted action for AP's.. however the SK1 does have an 88 note weighted action option but it's awfully expensive and it's not worth it (my opinion) given the mediocre quality of their acoustic piano. It also defeats the purpose of having a nice lightweight organ keyboard for learning organ technique.

 

However, the VR-09 does support a second keyboard (via midi), and I have used my VR-09 with a Yamaha KX8 weighted action controller (which I picked up for $350), and the VR-09 responds beautifully to the weighted action controller (for AP's AND EP's) so you could use just the VR-09 for EP/Organ and if/when you need acoustic piano, you pull out your Nord or look for an inexpensive 88 note weighted action controller for to work with the VR-09. Just another thought.

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

None of the 61 note versions of these keyboards has a weighted action for AP's.. however the SK1 does have an 88 note weighted action option but

The SK1 88 does have a different action from the 61/73 that is supposed to be more suitable to piano use, but it is still a "semi-weighted" action.

[Craig MacDonald]

Thanks for the clarification Anotherscott.. However, the bottom line remains the same for me.. not worth the extra expense given the quality of the AP/EP's.

[stoken6]

I have no option but to have a 2-Tier. No one is coming out saying I can survive on an SK1 alone.

 

So given that scenario, the AP/EP sounds are not going to be needed. The bottom board will handle that (Nord Piano).

 

Thus, it becomes possible for the top board to be pure organ as long as it's light weight.

 

 

This.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Rusty Mike]

It's too many pages to go back, but wasn't there some kind of issue with the chorus/vibrato on the VR-09? Was it that the percussion is routed through the C/V although it really shouldn't be?

 

That may not be good for playing jazz.

 

Jazzwee, I would recommend that you find an SK1 and play it for a while to see if you can live with the EP/AP voices on a single keyboard gig.

[Jazzwee]

Mike, unless Jazzmammal, or Zephonic or any of the other local guys have an SK1, I'm out of luck with that. Besides I can't afford it right this moment so there's no rush to look at an SK1. I haven't found a store with a store demo.

 

What I can probably afford is a VR09 and a little more painful, a used XK1C.

 

I have time before I need to think of one board options like the SK1, maybe at the end of the year. Not sure I want to wait till then to learn on an organ though.

 

And if I can afford an SK1, that would also raise the option of an Electro. I suppose that when someone has cash to burn, there's a lot of options.

 

I can see the draw though of the VR09. For $750, it's doable price wise and makes one forgive deficiencies.

[HAMEGZ]

The 750 price it's gone they are sold out at hello music

[DanL]

You could also look for a used Electro. Then you have the whole Nord library at your disposal and a pretty nice organ sound. It has a much better action than the VR09 (in my opinion).

 

[Craig MacDonald]

It's too many pages to go back, but wasn't there some kind of issue with the chorus/vibrato on the VR-09? Was it that the percussion is routed through the C/V although it really shouldn't be?

 

That may not be good for playing jazz.

 

Jazzwee, I would recommend that you find an SK1 and play it for a while to see if you can live with the EP/AP voices on a single keyboard gig.

Rusty Mike, the issue with the VR-09 and C/V is that the Percussion goes through the C/V. That's not the way it works on a real Hammond, but I'm not sure many would notice it.

[Six-string-man]

Thanks Craig. The only element that I'd like to clarify is that it appears that I have no option but to have a 2-Tier. No one is coming out saying I can survive on an SK1 alone.

 

So given that scenario, the AP/EP sounds are not going to be needed. The bottom board will handle that (Nord Piano).

 

Thus, it becomes possible for the top board to be pure organ as long as it's light weight.

 

I gather though that in addition to the cost of the board, I'll have to figure in the expression pedal as well. I hope that's it.

 

 

 

Jazzwee, if the AP's & EP's are going to be handled by the Nord Piano, you can get away with an XK1c as a top board.

 

Even though I love my SK1, I wouldn't claim that the "other voices" are good enough for every situation, especially playing them solo, though you could probably get away with them in a lot of band mixes.

 

AFAIK, the price of the XK1c in the US is far less than the SK1, so you would have a lot less $$$$ to find, should you decide to go the Hammond route. The XK1c is compact, lightweight, and comes with an excellent Leslie sim, so you could get away without buying a Ventilator/Burn, which will also save you $350+.

 

Don't know if you have been following the EXP50/EXP100F vs FC-7 thread, but once again, I can recommend that you check out the FC-7 when it comes to buying an expression pedal.

 

 

 

SSM

[DanL]

The 61 key SK1 comes up for sale here once in a while, and I've seen one on Craigslist in the Philly area for around $1500.

 

I agree that the extra voices, especially the piano, are not real suitable for solo playing, but I use them all the time with the blues band I'm with, and they work great in that context. Cut thru the mix and have a nice sound.

[jcazzy]

Thanks Craig. The only element that I'd like to clarify is that it appears that I have no option but to have a 2-Tier. No one is coming out saying I can survive on an SK1 alone.

 

So given that scenario, the AP/EP sounds are not going to be needed. The bottom board will handle that (Nord Piano).

 

Thus, it becomes possible for the top board to be pure organ as long as it's light weight.

 

I gather though that in addition to the cost of the board, I'll have to figure in the expression pedal as well. I hope that's it.

 

 

 

Jazzwee, if the AP's & EP's are going to be handled by the Nord Piano, you can get away with an XK1c as a top board.

 

Even though I love my SK1, I wouldn't claim that the "other voices" are good enough for every situation, especially playing them solo, though you could probably get away with them in a lot of band mixes.

 

AFAIK, the price of the XK1c in the US is far less than the SK1, so you would have a lot less $$$$ to find, should you decide to go the Hammond route. The XK1c is compact, lightweight, and comes with an excellent Leslie sim, so you could get away without buying a Ventilator/Burn, which will also save you $350+.

 

Don't know if you have been following the EXP50/EXP100F vs FC-7 thread, but once again, I can recommend that you check out the FC-7 when it comes to buying an expression pedal.

 

SSM

Jazzwee, if all you are looking for is an organ for the top tier, I will agree with SSM that the XK-1c can fit the bill for you. I use a Casio Px-5s and the Hammond XK-1c for half of my setup and couldn't be more pleased with it. Mind you, I replaced my older Korg ver2 digital CX-3 and a Neo Vent with the XK-1c. I replaced a clone with a clone, plain and simple, but the 1c has a better sounding engine along with the percussion and C/V. I will not diss the VR-09 because I haven't played one, but if you can stretch your budget to get the 1c, you won't have to worry about upgrading for a while and I do believe you will enjoy the feel of the keybed. Some say it is a bit stiff out of the box but it plays very similar to the '47 Hammond CV I own. YMMV.

[HammondDave]

Thanks Craig. The only element that I'd like to clarify is that it appears that I have no option but to have a 2-Tier. No one is coming out saying I can survive on an SK1 alone.

 

So given that scenario, the AP/EP sounds are not going to be needed. The bottom board will handle that (Nord Piano).

 

Thus, it becomes possible for the top board to be pure organ as long as it's light weight.

 

I gather though that in addition to the cost of the board, I'll have to figure in the expression pedal as well. I hope that's it.

 

(Keyboard action aside) For the musician looking for lightweight and budget, you can't beat the VR09 and the Casio Px-5s. You could pick up both for under $2000! Add a Burn or Vent and you are really close to a great sounding rig!

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Jazzwee, the layering of the sounds on the VK8 is because you didn't push the drawbars in. The organ engine is always on when you're using the other sounds so you turn it off with the drawbars plus turning off the percussion. Not that those sounds are any good anyway, just clarifying that point.

 

Craig, everybody has their taste and I certainly respect yours, I've played real B's as long as you have and had several different setups from stock to hotrodded and I still think the VK is a viable option. Not a Mojo to be sure but still decent enough. The feel of the keys is very important to me.

 

Bob

[xKnuckles]

Hello. I really apologise if this has already been covered, but cannot read through all the pages. I have a vr-09. What I need to do, and cannot seem to figure out how to do, is to select one of each type of sound ie. favourite strings, favourite brass, EP etc. and save the whole lot all at once in a single registration. is this possible? if it is not it would be a real shame as all those sounds are no use if they are simply buried in menus. many thanks.

[Craig MacDonald]

Bob,

 

I don't recall seeing anything from Jazzwee that really tells us what kind of condition this VK8 is in.. but the question here is a used VK8 (that could be beat up and 10 years old), with it's outdated leslie sim, and unusable other sounds (and Roland's clumsy implementation of them) vs a brand new VR-09 with an updated VK engine, new warranty, with it's awesome interface, other sounds and effects, all in a 12 pound package, and the ONLY significant downside of the VR-09 is that doesn't have a waterfall keyboard..

 

I don't like the sound of the VK engine.. that's my opinion, but I respect yours and I recognize that the VK engine has some diehard fans (who love it's amp sims and C/V etc). I happen to think that the VR-09 engine sounds better and it's a viable option now that the Lesle sim has been updated.

 

I'm not sure whether or not you own a VR-09 Bob, but there are a lot of people commenting here who have no intimate knowledge of the VR-09. They don't own one, they haven't taken the time to tweak the sounds, explore the interface, get used to the keyboard, try it with an 88 note weighted action controller, or simply enjoying the freedom of placing this 12 pound keyboard under their arm and heading off for a gig.

 

I dare say that those of us who HAVE taken the time to do this, would NEVER recommend a VK8 over a VR-09. I honestly think that there are a whole bunch of people who feel threatened by this tiny little toy keyboard and they are trying desperately to find things wrong with it.. It is an awesome entry level drawbar organ, and all-in-one keyboard, and the idea that it was selling over the weekend for $750 is absolutely incredible..

[Craig MacDonald]

Hello. I really apologise if this has already been covered, but cannot read through all the pages. I have a vr-09. What I need to do, and cannot seem to figure out how to do, is to select one of each type of sound ie. favourite strings, favourite brass, EP etc. and save the whole lot all at once in a single registration. is this possible? if it is not it would be a real shame as all those sounds are no use if they are simply buried in menus. many thanks.

 

Knuckless,

 

You can create whatever split/layer/sound that you want and save them as one of 100 registrations simply by pressing and holding and a registration button.. then select the registration number you want to save the sound into (using the display) and save. It is that easy.

 

It's just like programming a radio station on your car radio.. and it doesn't get any easier than this.. just remember to use the dial to select a different registration (don't overwrite an existing registration unless you want to)..

 

You can tweak any sound you want and save it as a registration.. you can create splits and layers and save them as registrations and if you want nothing more than to put store your favourite sounds as registrations 1-10 you can do that to..

 

Suggestion, before you start screwing around with registrations, you might want to save a copy of the original factory registration set so that you don't loose the factory set! You do this via the media menu I believe.

 

Hope this helps.

[AnotherScott]

the ONLY significant downside of the VR-09 is that doesn't have a waterfall keyboard..

As I mentioned, to me, the lack of waterfall isn't an issue at all. It's the feel of the keyboard in general. And honestly, I don't find the VR-09 nearly as bad as some other people do, I could play on it just fine. But it does not provide the same great feeling experience that a VK8 does, waterfall aside.

 

Other relative downsides of the VR09 is that the drawbar size and spacing is not as authentic, there are not dedicated controls for some of the C/V and percussion controls (you need to go to a menu for them), and it does not have the cool amp simulations of the VK8 (which may be why I have not heard as ballsy a sound out of the VR-09 as I've heard out of the VK-8). And some people are bothered that the percussion goes through the C/V, though I'm not so bothered by that one personally... which gets back to the thing that different things are important to different people, which is why different options can be right for different people.

 

And again, if you like the action of the VK8, you can always improve the sound later when budget permits (with a Vent/Burn, VB3, etc.). If you don't like the action of the VR-09, there's nothing you can do to improve it later.

 

If I was buying a board *just* for organ, I'd rather play a VK8 than a VR09. If I wanted other sounds, or if I were using it for gigging where the weight would be a factor, I'd probably choose the VR09... but I still might keep an eye out for something better feeling to keep at home, just for the joy of playing, if I could swing it.

[xKnuckles]

Hi Craig. Thanks for your reply. I understand about making a registration, but if I understand correctly, each registration can only have two sounds. It just seems odd to me that with the keyboard laid out as it is, there is no way that you can select your favourite sound from each button and have them as the first thing that appears when you press that button. Why have all those buttons then? I wish to avoid getting bogged down in dozens of registrations. If I could have 4 organ sounds and then access one sound from each section with a single button push that would be all I need....

[Craig MacDonald]

Knuckless, that's not how it works and I have no idea how you THINK this would work.. because what you're suggesting doesn't make any sense within the architecture of the VR-09.

 

Many synths have what might be referred to as "favourites" so you can take your ten favourite programs and store them in favourites.. but the VR-09 has no such thing.. it has a couple hundred fixed factory sounds, which includes a default drawbar organ, and then from there you have 100 registrations where you can store your custom sounds/organs/splits and layers.. that's it!

 

If you want to access 4 different organs you can do so by simply storing 4 different organs as 4 different registrations.. that's it.

 

EDIT!!!

 

Correction.. you can actually save 3 different sounds in one registration.. when you save an organ as a registrations it will also save the program you have selected in piano and synth sections.. so if your favourite AP is ROCK PIANO, press piano and select that.. and you want to be able to alternate between that and synth sound JP8 STRINGS1 press synth and select that JP8 STRINGS1, and then if you go to the organ tone, modify your organ tone (however you like) and SAVE that organ sound into a registration, you will find that along with your organ changes the piano sound and synth sound you had selected will also be saved AND they will be your default sounds if/when you press piano or synth buttons. So you can alternate between 3 sounds.. your modified organ, your favourite or saved piano sound and your favourite or saved synth tones, all by pushing organ/piano/synth buttons within one registration. (hope I've explained this properly).

[Craig MacDonald]

the ONLY significant downside of the VR-09 is that doesn't have a waterfall keyboard..

As I mentioned, to me, the lack of waterfall isn't an issue at all. It's the feel of the keyboard in general. And honestly, I don't find the VR-09 nearly as bad as some other people do, I could play on it just fine. But it does not provide the same great feeling experience that a VK8 does, waterfall aside. Other relative downsides of the VR09 is that the drawbar size and spacing is not as authentic, there are not dedicated controls for some of the C/V and percussion controls (you need to go to a menu for them), and it does not have the cool amp simulations of the VK8 (which may be why I have not heard as ballsy a sound out of the VR-09 as I've heard out of the VK-8). And some people are bothered that the percussion goes through the C/V, though I'm not so bothered by that one personally... which gets back to the thing that different things are important to different people, which is why different options can be right for different people.

 

And again, if you like the action of the VK8, you can always improve the sound later when budget permits (with a Vent/Burn, VB3, etc.). If you don't like the action of the VR-09, there's nothing you can do to improve it later.

 

If I was buying a board *just* for organ, I'd rather play a VK8 than a VR09. If I wanted other sounds, or if I were using it for gigging where the weight would be a factor, I'd probably choose the VR09... but I still might keep an eye out for something better feeling to keep at home, just for the joy of playing, if I could swing it.

 

Anotherscott, I should have said that the "keyboard" is the only significant downside, rather than "waterfall keyboard". My apologies!! I often forget that you will read, and reread every letter of every word, of every sentence, of every paragraph, of every post that I make, to find some kind of error, or some point to debate.

 

There are a number of differences between the VR-09 and the VK8, but with many of these differences the advantage goes to the VR-09 such as the live effects section, built in compressor, 3 different leslie sims (including a dual leslie sim), ring modulator, etc.. and it's ability to store 100 completely different organs!

 

The VK8 vs VR-09 question is still a no-brainer, in my opinion, and if anyone really wants a used VK8, I'm sure that Jazzwee will gladly tell you where you can get the one that he's wisely chosen to pass on!!

[xKnuckles]

Thank you very much for explaining it, Craig. At least I won't spend any more time trying to make it do something it can't. I will investigate the three sound setup - that will help a great deal.

Best wishes. :-)

[Craig MacDonald]

Knuckless, you're very welcome..

 

Yes you could create an rock organ/EP/String registration or a transistor organ/Acoustic piano/synth brass combination, or whatever, and alternate between these sets of 3 sounds simply by pressing ORGAN/PIANO/SYNTH buttons..

 

You can also create your traditional splits and layers as well.. good luck with your new VR-09

[To B3]

Knuckless, that's not how it works and I have no idea how you THINK this would work.. because what you're suggesting doesn't make any sense within the architecture of the VR-09.

 

Many synths have what might be referred to as "favourites" so you can take your ten favourite programs and store them in favourites.. but the VR-09 has no such thing.. it has a couple hundred fixed factory sounds, which includes a default drawbar organ, and then from there you have 100 registrations where you can store your custom sounds/organs/splits and layers.. that's it!

 

If you want to access 4 different organs you can do so by simply storing 4 different organs as 4 different registrations.. that's it.

 

EDIT!!!

 

Correction.. you can actually save 3 different sounds in one registration.. when you save an organ as a registrations it will also save the program you have selected in piano and synth sections.. so if your favourite AP is ROCK PIANO, press piano and select that.. and you want to be able to alternate between that and synth sound JP8 STRINGS1 press synth and select that JP8 STRINGS1, and then if you go to the organ tone, modify your organ tone (however you like) and SAVE that organ sound into a registration, you will find that along with your organ changes the piano sound and synth sound you had selected will also be saved AND they will be your default sounds if/when you press piano or synth buttons. So you can alternate between 3 sounds.. your modified organ, your favourite or saved piano sound and your favourite or saved synth tones, all by pushing organ/piano/synth buttons within one registration. (hope I've explained this properly).

 

Craig, it wasn't clear if that works with a modified organ, a modified/saved piano and a modified/saved synth, all inside the same registration? Or only with a modified organ, but the piano and synth sounds must be stock ones?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3, I didn't try editing the programs.. but I can.. if I get a chance this evening I will try basic ADSR and/or effects edits to see if I can store 3 edited progams per registration, and I'll try to report back what I find.

 

EDIT:

 

Just did a quick check and it doesn't look as if you can store 3 edited programs per registration, it seems to save the edited organ (eg drawbar settings) but not edits to the piano or synth programs.. I tried changing the attack of the piano, and the effects depth of the synth and neither was saved..

[WesG]

Does anybody know if the VK-8 or VR-700 can be used to control the bottom manual of a VR-09? Specifically talking about the drawbars, here. The keys are a no-brainer.

[Craig MacDonald]

WesG,

 

There are others here with more experience on the midi side of things, but I think that the VR-09 uses sys ex to control drawbars whereas the VK8 and the VK700 use specific cc's.

So the drawbars don't really speak the same language.. You can confirm this by googling the midi implementation charts for each of the 3 keyboards..

[xKnuckles]

Hi Craig,

I had a go at saving the three sounds as you suggested. I found that it seemed to, but if I had an edited organ sound and then went into the other sounds, when I came back to the organ it no longer had its edits. Did I do something wrong?

[WesG]

The VR-09 chart is not very informative when it comes to the drawbars -- they're actually not mentioned. The closest I could find is an indication that the synth parameters are recognized on received as CC in the 70's, but not transmitted..

 

Some days I wish I had time to build the magic MIDI box I have envisioned in my head for 10 years. It would let you write scripts for transforming MIDI messages on the fly, and run off flash memory..about the size of a pack of smokes. You could build your own appliances with it. (To heck with laptops, I hate them on stage)

[Craig MacDonald]

WesG,

 

With all the equipment I have, I could probably have had 2-3 different laptop based rigs over the years but I could NEVER seem to bring myself to actually try it.. not even once. Something just doesn't sit right with me.. too much to go wrong.. etc. etc.. but somehow I find it perfectly acceptable to build my gig rig around my Mojo (which is just a PC and an audio interface and a VST)..

 

One suggestion.. I seem to recall that the Ocean Beach drawbar controller can be configured to send sysex info (although I could be mistaken) but if you really want a second set of drawbars you might start there to see if it's possible to configure the ocean beach drawbar controller to act as a second set of drawbars on the VR-09. There are not particularly expensive and they worked great for me with my Nord C1/C2's

 

EDIT: talk to "OB Dave" he's a member here and he's the guy behind the Ocean Beach Drawbars.