Roland V-Combo VR-09

[HAMEGZ]

Dave did you get my PM?

[Jazzwee]

CEB, I'm 99% sure the key size on the VR-09 is within 1mm of the key size of a Hammond spinet...and by extension, your B3000.

 

The problem is not the key spacing, the problem is the distance between the back of the key and the pivot fulcrum. On the VR-09, it is too close, and this makes it difficult to strike the key toward the back. The fulcrum on a Hammond spinet diving board key is nearly four and a half inches behind the key (I just measured). I think that would be phyiscally impossible on the VR-09. It feels to me like it is about an inch back, but I have not taken one apart.

 

Aside from that, I think the VR-09 action is great, and it is a great organ. It is as easy (for me) to do palm smears and glissandi on the VR-09 as I it is to do them on a Hammond diving board spinet. Easier if the spinet has worn key combs. The rounded key fronts and high trigger point are excellent. I don't do knuckle squabbles.

 

I certainly consider the VR-09 wortht of the name "organ". It is not my favourite organ, but it does a fine job, and does a bunch of other stuff, too. For me, it is a keyboard which can take on any function in my rig in a pinch. I still prefer my real organ, and still prefer my weighted 88...but I can get through a gig on the VR-09, no problem.

 

BTW I tend to play my VR-09 on the "Rock Organ" setting. It has some balls, too. Of course, my main gig rig is an L111, so I could be accused of being thin in the top end most of the time anyhow.

 

Wes

 

You don't mention the narrow black keys though. That was probably the most uncomfortable to me.

 

I guess because I primarily play acoustic piano and am used to consistent key sizes, the shortness of the length of the key and then the narrowness of the black keys is intimidating.

 

But you guys are saying you overcame that and I don't really know much about organ technique so perhaps I'm overreacting to that.

[agitato]

Is the tw organ engine and leslie sim of the fa06, superior(sound quality-wise) to the one in the vr09?

[Jazzwee]

I'm a rock and I think the VK-7 and VK-8 is fine. It is sort of like the Hammond XB-2. Not necesaary the most authentic but they have balls.

 

No one responded to my earlier questions but related to deciding on VK8 or VR09 is:

 

How long does it take for a pianist to pick up organ technique, at least good enough to gig in a combo setting (jazz)?

 

If it is something I can pick up in a short time, then I might as well target an actual gigging keyboard (VR09, XK1C -- it will have to be some small board since I need AP on the bottom)

 

If it will take awhile to learn, then i might as well get the cheapest (VK8, or some cheap Spinet) and learn for awhile and resell later to get a proper pro board.

 

From what I know now, VK8 can't be used for gigging since I can't carry two heavy boards and the extra sounds are deficient for my purposes.

 

Right now, I gig with 80% AP sounds and 20% EP. Sometimes it's hard for the AP to cut in the mix and lately we've been expanding the set list so that organ sounds could be good.

 

 

[Six-string-man]

 

 

So being that learning will not be instant, this could be a two step process (particularly with the budget concern which is real). I could buy something now, and learn, and then settle on something for gigging a little later.

 

 

 

Scenarios include thinking only about learning and getting ANYTHING that's cheap. VK8, Spinet, etc. with the intention of reselling it later.

 

 

I definitely want to keep my purchase at under $1K (for this learning phase). But if I can't decide, then, I'll have to patiently wait for used.

 

 

 

 

Jazzwee, these three paragraphs from your post would seem to be the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

 

To answer an earlier question, the keys on the SK1 do not seem at all plasticky to me. BTW, I am ABSOLUTELY. NOT trying to push you in the direction of a Hammond here, just answering the question.

 

 

SSM

[brenner13]

No one responded to my earlier questions but related to deciding on VK8 or VR09 is:

 

How long does it take for a pianist to pick up organ technique, at least good enough to gig in a combo setting (jazz)?

Very different techniques between organ and piano. No one can predict how soon anyone would get good enough at anything. It's all a matter of perspective. If you want to really learn ALL the ins and outs of jazz organ, perhaps a spinet Hammond would be best so you can incorporate dual manuals and learn to kick bass with the pedals, too? Do you listen to jazz organ players? Is there somebody you'd like to sound like? A few of my faves are Lonnie Smith, Jimmy McGriff, Jimmy Smith, and Joey DeFrancesco. One should definitely check out Tony Moneco on U-Toob.

 

 

[DanL]

Why can one not go into a music store, play a keyboard, and decide he doesn't like it? Why do you need to "get used to" a sub par keyboard feel, and not buy one that actually feels good from the get go?

 

I played on a VR09 for an hour. I gave it a good workout. The bottom line is I couldn't connect with the keyboard feel itself. The sound engine part is fine as far as a budget board goes, but the keybed crossed it off of the "maybe I want this" list. The same reason I didn't even power up the Korg Krome 88 key board, it felt so bad just plunking a few keys for 10 seconds, that I knew I'd never like it, no matter how good the sounds might be.

 

I'll still stand by my original statement. If you had to choose between a VR09 and a VK8 to learn to play organ, I'd take the VK8 every day of the week. You are comparing an entry level board and what is/was Roland's pro level organ.

 

This isn't hating on the VR09 like some people seem to think. The VR is what it is- an entry level swiss army knife board. While it brings some nice features to the table, it also cuts corners in areas that are important a lot of potential buyers.

[WesG]

A Hammond spinet is suitable for learning to play rock organ (provided it is in good shape - they all need work if unrestored) .... But it is completely unsuitable for learning jazz organ IMO. There are too few pedals, they are the wrong shape, and most of them have bad-sounding pedals. Additionally, the lower manual does not have the two brown drawbars, making walking bass with your left hand pretty seriously sucky.

 

The VR-09, coupled with another keyboard for the lower manuals d the Roland pedals would be better than a Hammond spinet in this regard. Note also that most jazz organists don't really walk bass with their feet (also Barbara does, and Cherry Wainer did) ... The pedals are used more atonically to give the left hand a "thrum" like a string bass. But you should still learn your way rand the pedal clavier if you are serious about jazz organ.

 

As for key size - organ keys are smaller than piano keys! The VR-09 has organ-sized keys. They are the same width, though.

[BluesKeys]

There is a VR-09 in my future. I just sold my Korg Triton LE last Saturday and can't wait to get my hands on one.

[CEB]

No one responded to my earlier questions but related to deciding on VK8 or VR09 is:

 

How long does it take for a pianist to pick up organ technique, at least good enough to gig in a combo setting (jazz)?

 

If it is something I can pick up in a short time, then I might as well target an actual gigging keyboard (VR09, XK1C -- it will have to be some small board since I need AP on the bottom)

 

...

 

It isn't that complex to change over. You already know the hard stuff. Of course the more you dig into it the more you will learn. But, no it won't take long.

 

There are some technical tricks. Some voicings that work really well on one don't work as well on the other. Some organ stuff revolves around what frequencies get what tones out of a Leslie. Organ tone is as much or more a function frequencies and number of notes as it is of volume gain. There are some basic registrations you need to learn but a lot of the way you pull drawbars is just by what sounds good. It would help I guess to learn how foldback technically works but at first use you ears.

 

Pick a song or two and throw the song and and questions out to the peanut gallery. Your technique will grow with your repertoire.

 

A couple of sessions with a Hammond player can shorten the learning curve a lot if you know somebody. When I got mine I was around 20. I didn't know how to turn the darn thing on. I spent a few afternoons with Darel DeCounter and I was playing gigs in less than a month. I was playing rock stuff. To this day I am a better pianist but most the calls I get are for playing Hammond.

 

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

The biggest, most obvious mistake I see when a piano player attempts to play organ on a multifunction board is they use the sustain pedal.

[voxpops]

The biggest, most obvious mistake I see when a piano player attempts to play organ on a multifunction board is they use the sustain pedal.

Easily solved in a Nord Electro, for example, by setting the sustain pedal to operate as rotary switch for organ and damper for piano. In the VR-09 the OS omission is that the pedal is either a rotary switch or a damper (or something else) but cannot switch in parallel with the sound type. I'd much rather hear overuse of the rotary speed control than sustain on an organ patch while the user gets used to organ technique.

[voxpops]

Why do you need to "get used to" a sub par keyboard feel, and not buy one that actually feels good from the get go?

 

I played on a VR09 for an hour. I gave it a good workout. The bottom line is I couldn't connect with the keyboard feel itself. The sound engine part is fine as far as a budget board goes, but the keybed crossed it off of the "maybe I want this" list.

I'm still struggling a little with the VR-09's keyboard. However, I needed the synth engine in my second tier board, as well as a drawbar organ, and there's little out there that does that at a sensible price in a lightweight package. So I would agree that if only organ is required (or possibly organ plus piano), there are definitely better actions available in other boards.

[CEB]

Why can one not go into a music store, play a keyboard, and decide he doesn't like it? Why do you need to "get used to" a sub par keyboard feel, and not buy one that actually feels good from the get go?

 

....

+ a bunch.

[Craig MacDonald]

Why can one not go into a music store, play a keyboard, and decide he doesn't like it? Why do you need to "get used to" a sub par keyboard feel, and not buy one that actually feels good from the get go?

 

....

+ a bunch.

 

Absolutely, but be prepared to spend a lot more $$$..!!!!

 

Obviously these low end keyboards are compromises.. why don't you guys seem to get this? They are incredible value, they sound great and they have fabulous functionality for the price.. but they're low end, entry level, keyboards..

 

If you want higher end action.. go pay for it and stop wasting everyone's time bitching about it in the VR-09 thread.. the point has been made a hundred times!!! So has the point that many of is find it easy to get used to..

[HammondDave]

Like the man says, you get what you pay for. It's like deciding to buy a $20,000 Civic vs a $50,000 BMW. The Beemer will drive and feel a hell of a lot better than the Civic. But there are still a lot of Civic buyers out there.

 

Cats who play the VR09 have no problems with a utilitarian board. Hell, even I was tempted to buy one last night for $750! (I stopped myself because I knew that I would hear nothing but shit from Craig about it... No amount of money savings is worth that!)

[Craig MacDonald]

You know it Davie!! ;-)

 

Seriously, you're right, despite all our battles about this keyboard.. it simply boils down to getting what you paid for.. spend more, get more.. certain compromises work for some of us that don't work for others. It's that simple.

 

However, you can't deny that this is one powerful little keyboard for $750, holy f#$%! At that price who gives a shit what the keyboard feels like.. seriously.. for that price I'll f-ing get used to it!!! So would you if you bought one. You've probably played a lot worse keyboards in your career!!

 

Is there anything more that really needs to be said..??

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

Good points here but have you actually played a VK8 Craig? It does not sound like crap. I read that SOS article and absolutely do not agree with that conclusion. There's lots of YT vids with the VK8 and the module version the VK8M. Check them out and while you're doing it ask yourself why does the module still sell for $550-600 on Ebay all the time? Because it's still a helluva B3 module, that's why.

 

To Jazzwee's issue he needs to learn organ on a proper keybed imho. Yes the VR09 is a good value no question about it but the feel is very important also. Guys like us who have years of experience playing B3 can adapt to whatever but someone just starting on organ should have a proper keyboard. No different than learning piano. What would you advise a beginning piano student to learn basic piano on? A mediocre budget digital or get the best keyboard they can afford including a real upright piano like a used Yamaha U1? If money is an issue they can find a used QS8 for a few hundred bucks and while the action is decent the piano sound is not the best but good enough to learn on. Same principle here. The keyboard itself is very important and $800 to get that is a no brainer.

 

Bob

[HAMEGZ]

I think for a semi "Swiss Army Knife" © type board the VR09 would fill the bill for certain gigs and playing styles, with the disclaimer that Hammond Organ players will find shortcomings with it, BUT thats fine.

 

I had an exchange with Craig M concerning the VR09 for my specific needs and although some may hang the moniker " VR09 fanboiz", he actually was helpful and dissuaded me from the purchase, based on what I was looking for.

 

I think for the most part AFA the "sound" the audience doesn't give a hoot or really can discern the difference, WE are the enemy and our own worst critics.I had a chance to hear another band that played the same style music as we do, in the same venue we play. The keyboard player had some kind of Yamaha "home" board with the cheesy organ /rotary patch. I thought it sucked, the audience danced and had fun, not one of them said , HEY that's NOT a B3 888800000 147 sound.

 

Having said that , we have certain expectations AFA feel, logistics, sound, craftsmanship, etc . SO I think what some people have hinted at, YOU need to try the board for YOURSELF, in the end you have to wake up to it every day.

 

Lots of good info here from those of use who seek the Holy Grail, and still haven't found it. I think I have with an SK2 and MS Pro145, but they dont fit on most of my stage area, and thats ONLY for organ.Some of the EVs are good on the SK, but not enough to not warrant a second board to cover the missing sounds.

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Good points here but have you actually played a VK8 Craig? It does not sound like crap. I read that SOS article and absolutely do not agree with that conclusion. There's lots of YT vids with the VK8 and the module version the VK8M. Check them out and while you're doing it ask yourself why does the module still sell for $550-600 on Ebay all the time? Because it's still a helluva B3 module, that's why.

 

To Jazzwee's issue he needs to learn organ on a proper keybed imho. Yes the VR09 is a good value no question about it but the feel is very important also. Guys like us who have years of experience playing B3 can adapt to whatever but someone just starting on organ should have a proper keyboard. No different than learning piano. What would you advise a beginning piano student to learn basic piano on? A mediocre budget digital or get the best keyboard they can afford including a real upright piano like a used Yamaha U1? If money is an issue they can find a used QS8 for a few hundred bucks and while the action is decent the piano sound is not the best but good enough to learn on. Same principle here. The keyboard itself is very important and $800 to get that is a no brainer.

 

Bob

 

Bob, you have to know that there are a LOT of us Hammond/clone players that can't stand the sound of the VK engine, and it's not just the SOS magazine. I can't stand the sound of the VK engine, but I've made an exception in this case simply because of the price point that this VR-09 is at (and because it does have a better sounding engine, although mostly due to the improved leslie sim)..

 

I've used/played/owned pretty much every clone going. Having played the VK8, VR700 as well as VK8m extensively (I never bought one because I hated the sound, but we had them in the retail store where I worked) so I do know how they sound and feel and I do know that they have a great keyboard feel but again they have a sound that I've never liked.

 

Let's talk about the feel issue for a second.. If I was an organ player wanting to transition to playing real acoustic piano.. would you suggest that I need to buy a bechstein in order to experience a real high quality feel.. ABSOLUTELY NOT.. you would probably tell me to go start bashing away on my gramma's upright, or pick up a decent digital piano..

 

Bob, the VR-09 is to a real Hammond organ, in exactly the same relationship that an entry level digital piano is to a real acoustic piano. It won't exactly match the real thing but it is a perfectly acceptable place to start. In my opinion.

 

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I had an exchange with Craig M concerning the VR09 for my specific needs and although some may hang the moniker " VR09 fanboiz", he actually was helpful and dissuaded me from the purchase, based on what I was looking for.

 

 

 

Thanks H&E! You are absolutely right, I am not a VR-09 fanboy.. I have no skin in the game here, I am NOT affiliated with any manufacturer (unlike a number of others who post frequently on the topic of Hammond clones) and I want nothing more than to answer questions, and help to act as an unbiased levelling influence in this world of Hammond clones.

[AnotherScott]

It {VK8} does not sound like crap. I read that SOS article and absolutely do not agree with that conclusion.

there are a LOT of us Hammond/clone players that can't stand the sound of the VK engine, and it's not just the SOS magazine.

To both of you, SOS magazine did not dislike the sound of the VK8. They took it to task primarily for the editing interface and reduced functionality compared to its predecessor, not for its sound.

 

[Jazzwee]

I think I'm able to refine my thoughts now based on the excellent debate here.

 

I gather from the commentary here that learning how to play some amount of organ, enough to play it at (jazz) gigs is something I can do in a few short months. If I am incorrect in my assessment here please speak up.

 

Given this possibility, I can state that it will not be possible to gig with the VK8. I'm not able to carry 2 heavy boards (Nord Piano) nor fit it in my car. I currently use a Quiklok WS550 and this means changing the configuration to do 2 tier. And that means bringing a larger stand. So as much as I'm attracted to the VK8 feel, it's not going to be a practical choice.

 

Unfortunately, the other sounds on the VK8 were unusable. I couldn't even get a straight piano, EP sound out of it. It constantly sounded like a layer over organ. So it cannot be used as a single board option.

 

This leaves only the lightweight board options. VR09, XK1C, SK1.

 

The issue seems to be (a) buy the cheapest now (VR09) and start playing with it and perhaps upgrade later, (b) Save up money and buy the best option - probably SK1 so I can graduate to using one board on occasion.

 

Chime in if you think I'm analyzing this incorrectly.

 

EDIT: Just to add to the type of organ playing I would expect to be doing:

Full Combo - Trio or Quartet (with Sax). Jazz/Funk. Can always skip the LH. No learning about bass pedals.

 

[Ken Beaumont]

I did a guitar/vocal gig Saturday standing in for their regular guitar player. The keyboard player played organ patches on a Yamaha MO8. I couldn't stand the sound of that and wished I had my VR-09 with me. The MO8 patches he used really sucked. He was a good player. But geez, a CASIO XW-P1 has better organ sounds than that.

 

So its all relative, if I had a Hammond SK1 I would rather have that for organ if only organ was what I wanted. But I also wanted synth sounds and the VR-09 fit the bill nicely.

 

And its organ sounds are way better than my other boards.

I had a Kurzweil SP4-7 that had some good organ sounds, unfortunately no drawbars and the Leslie affect wasn't something rave about!

 

[AnotherScott]

Unfortunately, the other sounds on the VK8 were unusable. I couldn't even get a straight piano, EP sound out of it. It constantly sounded like a layer over organ. So it cannot be used as a single board option.

 

Yes, that was one of the annoying interface issues mentioned in the SOS article. There's no quick mute for the organ sound, other sounds are layered over it. The solution is to create an organ preset that is silent (i.e. 000000000 ) and select that when you want to only hear the non-organ ("layered") sound.

 

[Jazzwee]

Unfortunately, the other sounds on the VK8 were unusable. I couldn't even get a straight piano, EP sound out of it. It constantly sounded like a layer over organ. So it cannot be used as a single board option.

 

Yes, that was one of the annoying interface issues mentioned in the SOS article. There's no quick mute for the organ sound, other sounds are layered over it. The solution is to create an ogran preset that is silent (i.e. 000000000 ) and select that when you want to only hear the non-organ ("layered") sound.

 

So I wasn't losing my mind! I thought maybe I was missing some special button somewhere. Also the volume of the "other sounds" was much lower, I guess since they functioned mostly as layers. This confirms the inapplicability of the VK8 for use as a single board. But looks like good for pure organ.

 

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I think I'm able to refine my thoughts now based on the excellent debate here.

 

I gather from the commentary here that learning how to play some amount of organ, enough to play it at (jazz) gigs is something I can do in a few short months. If I am incorrect in my assessment here please speak up.

 

Given this possibility, I can state that it will not be possible to gig with the VK8. I'm not able to carry 2 heavy boards (Nord Piano) nor fit it in my car. I currently use a Quiklok WS550 and this means changing the configuration to do 2 tier. And that means bringing a larger stand. So as much as I'm attracted to the VK8 feel, it's not going to be a practical choice.

 

Unfortunately, the other sounds on the VK8 were unusable. I couldn't even get a straight piano, EP sound out of it. It constantly sounded like a layer over organ. So it cannot be used as a single board option.

 

This leaves only the lightweight board options. VR09, XK1C, SK1.

 

The issue seems to be (a) buy the cheapest now (VR09) and start playing with it and perhaps upgrade later, (b) Save up money and buy the best option - probably SK1 so I can graduate to using one board on occasion.

 

Chime in if you think I'm analyzing this incorrectly.

 

EDIT: Just to add to the type of organ playing I would expect to be doing:

Full Combo - Trio or Quartet (with Sax). Jazz/Funk. Can always skip the LH. No learning about bass pedals.

 

Jazzwee you've analized this perfectly except for one point. The XK1c is NOT an all-in-one.. it has no other sounds beyond organ voices. So you will not be able to cover your acoustic piano gigs AND organ gigs with an XK1c.

 

So now that you've eliminated the used VK8 from the picture (wise decision), and the XK1c, your choices boil down to:

 

1. VR-09 at $750 (new) for a good sounding organ, with great other voices (top of the line roland sampled sounds, a very comprehensive soundset and a complete virtual analog synth)

2. SK1 at $1995 (new, current price at sweetwater) excellent organ with good other sounds (just "good" because the SK1 doesn't have as good a cross section of sounds, or a Virtual Analog synth like the VR-09).

 

That is a HUGE price difference and the fact that you're on a budget, but you seem anxious to get started, makes me think that the VR-09 is the better choice. But only you can decide what's best.. I just hope I have helped you to understand the options.

[Jazzwee]

Thanks Craig. The only element that I'd like to clarify is that it appears that I have no option but to have a 2-Tier. No one is coming out saying I can survive on an SK1 alone.

 

So given that scenario, the AP/EP sounds are not going to be needed. The bottom board will handle that (Nord Piano).

 

Thus, it becomes possible for the top board to be pure organ as long as it's light weight.

 

I gather though that in addition to the cost of the board, I'll have to figure in the expression pedal as well. I hope that's it.

[Craig MacDonald]

Jazzwee,

 

I'm not sure why no one is suggesting that you can't survive on an SK1 alone because it does have an OK cross section of other voices.. Acoustic Piano, Electric Piano, Clavinet etc..

 

The thing is that many folks, myself included, are not particularly enamored with the SK's extra voices.. I just think they're mediocre, and I would take the VR-09's collection of other sounds (and it's Virtual Analog synth) over the SK1's extra voices any day of the week..

 

However, lot's of players are gigging with SK1's and finding their AP/EP/Clavs to be perfectly acceptable. I do think that you could accomplish your goals with an SK1..

 

So I think your options are really as follows:

 

1. VR-09 as an all-in-one for organ/acoustic/electric pianos (and other voices)

2. Keep your current Nord piano + XK1c second tier for organ

3. SK1 as an all-in-one

 

So what is best for you depends on budget and how much of a hurry you're in..

 

You will need an expression pedal, a sustain pedal and perhaps a separate leslie speed switch if you want to control the leslie with your foot. otherwise that's it.

[Jazzwee]

Yes Craig, that's a good view of my options. Except if AP is needed then I have to play on weighted keys.

 

So in theory, if I'm playing in a more exposed trio, then I'd want to be more equipped by having AP with weighted. Now in a quartet setting, I would guess that EP/Organ could work (SK1).

 

If I'm going to fork out cash for an XK1C, it would make sense then to wait until I can do afford an SK1 since that's the only that offers a one board option. Or maybe an Electro if I really have cash to burn.

 

I'm debating now if I should get a VR09 for now so that I have something affordable to use and learn, and do some light gigging with, and then plan on upgrading later in the year to an SK1. I'm definitely not going to be able to budget for an SK1 at this point.