Roland V-Combo VR-09

[AnotherScott]

I don't think the action of the VR-09 is so bad, but the VK8/VR700 are outstanding, and for those for whom the feel of the keys is a big part of the pleasure of playing, that can't be dismissed. You can always improve the sound of a VK8, i.e. use it to trigger VB3, or the HX3 module (or maybe even Galileo, I'm not sure how that quality compares to the VK8)... or as you suggest yourself, by adding a Ventilator. OTOH, there's nothing you can do to improve the action of the VR-09 if it doesn't float your boat.

 

VR-09 is a great value, and has other virtues like simplicity and light weight. But a VK8 and a laptop (which someone may already have, so may not be a big additional expense), may well be more satisfying in feel and sound and simply provide more joy in playing. So I don't see this as a no-brainer.

[Craig MacDonald]

Anotherscott.. I think Jazzwee is on a budget.. and adding a laptop and VB3, or modifying a 12 year old clone to accept the HOAX chip probably isn't affordable or practical.. and with respect to the HOAX chip, it's not an easy "do it yourself" kind of project for anyone except those with a solid background in electronics. Seriously I don't think this is good advice for a guy standing in a music store trying to decide between two keyboards he wants to take home and play.. like right now..

 

For the record, how satisfying is a nice keyboard feel on a 12 year old keyboard that sounds like crap? As I said, only a die hard Hammond snob would choose a VK8 over the VR-09 because of the waterfall keyboard.. I don't see that Jazzwee is a diehard Hammond snob.. I think he will get a lot more enjoyment out of the VR-09 and he'll probably find a huge amount of inspiration not just in it's Hammond sound but all the other sounds and features.. It's certainly provides a lot more sonic power than that old VK8!

 

 

[CEB]

The 09 sucks. My FA-06 has the same action and it sucks too. But I put a lot if hours on the 06 and I can play it fine but the fundemental nature has not changed it still sucks.

 

They suck less if you stay away from keys like C#m or F# but I play in black keys.

[Craig MacDonald]

CEB,

 

You say the VR-09 sucks, and it's the same crappy action as your FA-06, but you also say that you've gotten used to it and it works for you now, but it still sucks..? You don't like the keyboard, however you've figured out that the compromise you've had to make (crappy keyboard) is worth it to get all the features and functionality of the of the FA-06 at this fantastic low price! It's working for you and it's satisfying your requirements.. Great!

 

Same thing with the VR-09.. I see/hear a lot of people saying they can't stand the keyboard, but then I also hear a lot of people (like myself) saying that "it's easy to get used to" and others saying "I almost returned it but I kept it and now I love it"! The great thing is that once you're used to these keyboard, you get to enjoy all of those inspiring sounds and features, and all of the fantastic musical power that is inside these keyboards, for such an incredibly low price..!

 

As far as I am concerned the fact that you've gotten accustomed to your FA-06 just reaffirms my point that it's worth giving a VR-09 an chance, because you'll probably get used to the keyboard and then you'll begin to see that it's a killer board for the price. I get it, the keyboard isn't the greatest.. and this thread contains pages and pages of debate about the keyboard.. but lately you see a whole lot of VERY positive comments from those folks who bought it.

 

I'm not trying to push the VR-09 by any means.. It's got its limitations and you have to make some compromises.. but it is GREAT value!! No question... buy one with a 30 day warranty.. play the crap out of it for 30 days and if you can't get used to it.. return it..

 

However, stay away from this used VK8.. it's a piece of crap.

[AnotherScott]

Anotherscott.. I think Jazzwee is on a budget.. and adding a laptop and VB3... isn't affordable

As I said, "a VK8 and a laptop (which someone may already have, so may not be a big additional expense)"

 

To which I will add, finances aren't static. A VR-09 purchased today will remain a VR-09. A VK8 purchased today is something that can be added to over time when budget allows, whether with a Ventilator, a laptop, whatever. (And in the mean time, honestly, I don't think the VK-8 is so bad sounding, either!)

 

and with respect to the HOAX chip, it's not an easy "do it yourself" kind of project

It is (or is about to be) available as a kit that requires nothing more than a screwdriver to assemble.

 

http://wiki.keyboardpartner.de/index.php?title=HX3_MIDI_expander_module

 

As I said, only a die hard Hammond snob would choose a VK8 over the VR-09 because of the waterfall keyboard..

Personally, I don't care about waterfall keyboard. I find the VK8/VR700 satisfying to play for reasons having nothing to do with the key shape. It's the feel.

 

(I'm also one of those who prefer the action of the first version of the digital CX3, before they switched to the fatar waterfall action. The shape wasn't as authentic, but I thought it felt better to play.)

 

Again, I'm not disputing the real advantages of the VR-09! I just think that there are also benefits to the VK8 that prevent the decision from being a "no-brainer."

[Six-string-man]

Craig, I know you love your VR-09, and fair play to you, but Jazzwee wanted an organ, and with the best will in the world, the VR-09 is not an organ.

 

The keyboard action is wrong, the c/v is wrong, the percussion is less than it could be, I could go on, but I won't.

 

I honestly think that rather than blowing $800 -$900, it would be better to save the cash, and wait until either more money was available, or something better came up on the used market.

 

 

SSM

[DanL]

If I were learning how to play organ on a budget, I'd look for an old Hammond spinet like an L100.

 

Otherwise, if that VK8 is cheaper than a VR09, I'd grab the VK. Yeah, it's 12 years old, but a lot of guys still use them. I saw a blues trio the other night, the organ player used a VK8, split so he could play left hand bass. It sounded pretty good running straight into the PA. Definitely passable for what he was doing and for Jazzwee, it'd be a great budget board to learn how a tonewheel organ works.

 

[brenner13]

A Hammond M111 was what I learned on...it did not have waterfall keys. The VR09's keys actually remind me a bit of the M111 but perhaps with a slightly more shallow key throw on the Roland.

 

My Rhodes VK1000 has real clicky draw bars but no waterfall on the 76 keys. The sound is unique, but definatey no Hammond emulation. There's a bunch of VK1000 haters out there because it is a poor Hammond emulation, but I like it anyway BECAUSE of its strange character but it has been in the case for nearly a year since the VR09 arrived. Whoa! It might be fun to stack those babies for a dual manual experience.

 

I digress. So if wood panelling heft and waterfall keys and a tactile feel outweigh a newer, better, more diverse sound engine, much of the advice here seems to lean towards the VK8. I might have agreed with that if I've not had such a wonderful experience so far with the VR09. As long as everything works on the VK8 (and continues to), that sure seems like a fantastic price. If one only wants a good organ learning platform, go for the 8. If there is any interest at all for more synthesis options, definitely do the 09.

[lekanout]

(Thanks for your kind wordscraig and six strings,yes i know the mojo,but it's more evier and i'm not sure about the reliability)

I suggest the VR700 because the VR700 is the evolution from roland more near the VR09 than theVK8.

 

The vr09 has 2 problems for me:

1-you can find a used VR700 near the same price of the VR09..with similar organ technology and better keybed.

(Yes craig,if you speak roland organ,the VR700 is from the namm 2010,not from 2002 like the vk8)

 

2-i know very well the supernatural sounds frome roland because i had a jupiter 80 and gig a lot during 2 years with it.

I must say i loved it!

The vr09 has the basic supernatural synth engine and it's really a good advantage!

But for just 100 euros more in europe now you can afford a FA6,with more specs and more soundsThat's a big problem for the vr09

 

The fa has the supernatural organ engine in it too.

[CEB]

Around here you can get M3s for about $200.

[Jazzwee]

Boy, the exchange you guys are having is exactly what's going on in my head.

 

As far as bias goes, understand that I don't know how to play organ. So you can see why my reaction is highly biased towards keyboard feel because I play piano and my gigs are all piano gigs.

 

Everything you all say has good points.

 

Now SSM (and Moe) has been touting the XK1C but understanding that I am on a budget for a one time purchase, I'm just curious about the comments about the keyboard feel of that XK1C. Is this plasticky too?

 

The VK8 felt really good keyboard wise. And my impression of the sound was good. The price was $799. The "other" sounds do not play properly so I presume someone messed with the programming of the thing.

 

I'll have to continue this post later since I have to leave and I have more thoughts.

 

 

[CEB]

You are a pianist. You know feel is important. The keybed .... you know the thing we actually PLAY is most important thing. Sounds the 10-20 years have gotten overrated.

 

VK8 is fine. VK7 even sounds fine. It has a nice gain stage. When you cranks it has some balls. You can gig with just the nekkid VK8.

 

If you get the VK8 for $800 and it goes well you can add a Mini Vent for $350 later and it would have a nice pro level sound. ..... or you could bite the bullet a get XK1c. I haven't played the XK1c one but if Moe thinks it is fine that is a pretty good endorsement. He maybe one of few organists on this forum. I mean real organs .... as in a classical pipe organ performance major.

 

I use the FA-06 for home practice. The tone sound fine but that shallow small cheap keybed is horrid. I would rather play a XB2 or VK-7 than a VR-09. The black key spacing on those cheap new Roland boards is so close I don't think I could squabble on it. Maybe is you fingers are really skinny. I have big hands.

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

I will say this again.. the question was not spinet organ vs VR700 vs XK1c vs VK8+HOAX engine or any of things you guys are suggesting... THE QUESTION IS VK8 VS VR-09!!!!!!!!!

 

Most of the people who are suggesting the VK8 over the VR-09 are NOT VR-09 owners.. they are just guys who are reading manuals or they've tried the VR-09 once at a music store or they've seen a youtube demo or something like that, but they have never owned and worked with a VR-09 like myself or Brenner13.

 

Take it from a VR-09 owner who has owned and played almost every clone around.. the VR-09 will sound much better than the VK8 out of the box, and despite what SSM suggests, the VR-09 is a drawbar organ first and foremost. Just because it doesn't have waterfall keys does NOT mean that it's not an organ! Not all tonewheel organs have waterfall keys or 3 series C/V. Go search youtube and see all the great players who used spinets with diving board keys!!! Artists like Steve Winwood (all his early stuff), Keith Emerson (Nice), Matthew Fisher (whiter shade of pale), and I could go ON AND ON!!!

 

Listen carefully to the guys who own a VR-09, rather than the naysayers who have little real experience with it.

[CEB]

Diving board don't have jack to do with it. My B3000 had diving board keys. It played great.

 

Keyspacing on the Rolands is too narrow. They needed to use full size keys like Yamaha did on the MX61.

 

[video:youtube]

[lekanout]

Craig.

Even if the vr09,is a good keyboard,i don't see where is the problem to suggest other solutions,and it's not like saying bad things about your VR09.

 

If you think vr09 vs VK8,you think roland organ emulation.

Roland portable organ emulation(with drawbar) since the vk8 is:

-VK8

-VR760

-VR700

-VR09

But the organ engine is available(with less parameters)in the supernatural parts of a jupiter 80/50,the integra 7,and even a BK9 for exemple.

 

I think it's logical to share about all the vr..

To be honest,the VK8 vs VR09 could be my personal debate too,and discover a used vr700 is the best compromise today.

Just my 2 cents,not a solution for everybody:-)

 

Choices depends where you want your priority.

If you speak about tech specs,the choice is for sure the vr09,or the FA06 with supernatural organ engine.

But if you ask about the VK8,you speak about an organ player point of viewand the VR09 isn't the best choice because playing on a really good waterfall keybed is a better experience than the VR09 keybed.

 

(if waterfall keys are not a priority,i prefer for exemple my kurzweil pc361 superior to a VR09 in all aspects i think,with really good organ emulation.less expensive than the VR09)

 

So depends where you think the essential is..but i think a organ player won't choose the VR09 because the of the need of the waterfall key .

[Craig MacDonald]

Boy, the exchange you guys are having is exactly what's going on in my head.

 

As far as bias goes, understand that I don't know how to play organ. So you can see why my reaction is highly biased towards keyboard feel because I play piano and my gigs are all piano gigs.

 

Everything you all say has good points.

 

Now SSM (and Moe) has been touting the XK1C but understanding that I am on a budget for a one time purchase, I'm just curious about the comments about the keyboard feel of that XK1C. Is this plasticky too?

 

The VK8 felt really good keyboard wise. And my impression of the sound was good. The price was $799. The "other" sounds do not play properly so I presume someone messed with the programming of the thing.

 

I'll have to continue this post later since I have to leave and I have more thoughts.

 

 

Jazzwee don't assume that because the VK8's other sounds are crappy that someone must have messed with them.. The extra sounds in the VK8 are just crappy and quite useless.

 

The VK8 does have a good keybed and I believe that it will have a better feel than the Hammond SK/XK1c series which features a lower cost fatar keyboard (someone may correct me if I'm wrong on this). However, when it comes to playing organ on these Hammond clones, the keys are all basically just off/on switches, it's not like playing an acoustic piano!!

 

Don't overstate the importance of the "feel"! You will easily get accustomed to an XK1c, a VK8, a VK7, a VR-09 or a real Hammond for that matter.. and see my other post, not all tonewheels have the 3 series waterfall keys.. most of the Hammond spinets had diving board key, and a lot of great music was made on those spinets, and a lot of organ players, like myself, started out on them!!

 

Don't be too worried about the keyboard fee, you will get used to which ever keyboard you choose.

[Craig MacDonald]

Diving board don't have jack to do with it. My B3000 had diving board keys. It played great.

 

Keyspacing on the Rolands is too narrow. They needed to use full size keys like Yamaha did on the MX61

 

CEB,

 

I think that you are exaggerating the issue (I don't mean intentionally so don't be offended).

 

I have my VR-09 sitting exactly on top of my Mojo and the difference in width of the keyboard across 5 octaves is the width of one white key or about 3/4". Spread that difference across 61 keys and that's .008" per key. Do you really think this minuscule difference makes the VR-09 unplayable? Do you really that someone could not adjust to that?

 

Honestly I think you guys are making way too big a deal about the keybed on the VR-09. Yes it has diving board keys an yes the keys are a couple thousands of an inch narrower but really.. when it comes to playing organ these are just off/on switches.. the VR-09 has a nice high trigger point and it's very easy to utilize whatever hammond technique you choose and it's very easy to get used to it, at least in my experience.

 

 

[lekanout]

Craig:

I ve just read all your precedent messages in this topic.

It's very useful and intersesting.

Thanks for that.

 

In fact,i agree with you for so many positive points with the vr 09.

But i'm gigging in the blues/classic rock circuit in france,and i think it will be hard to find a vr09 on stage.

 

I always see on stage hammond series and nord series today(or real hammond,or mojo and keyB)..never roland from pure organists.

 

I personnaly disagree because i always loved roland,but it's like that.

(i'm speaking about semi pro and pro players)

 

Here in europe there is a lot roland bashing,i'm sad about this.

But i suspect we won't see a lot of vr09 on stageonly with some amateur bands sometimes for the fun.

 

About keybed.

When i had the chance to put my fingers on the vk8 keybed,it was a really relly great sensation!

The same i love with my rd700nx,but for organs.

Nothing to compare with the vr09.

Here again,maybe it's only me..but i love that!

 

Oh god if the vr 09 could have wood panels and the same keybed than the vk8,i will buy it for sure

[Craig MacDonald]

Lekanout,

 

Don't misconstrue my thoughts on the value of the VR-09 with me being a big fan of the Roland VK engine.. I don't really like the VK engine and I think it is the least authentic sounding of all the current crop of clones.. The reasons that I don't like the VK engine are probably the same reasons that you don't see a lot of them on the circuit in France.

 

However, with a bit of tweaking you can get a reasonably good Hammond sound out of the VR-09 and it's still great value for all that it is.. IF the VR700 was sitting beside the VR-09 and the VK8 for sale for the same price, I might recommend it, but in this case it's not. The VR-09 is not for the pro players (unless they want to use it for rehearsals or tiny venues, as I do). However it's a great entry level keyboard for those who want a drawbar organ.

 

Again I am a fan of the VALUE that exists in the VR-09.. it's not the best at anything, and no one would expect that a low end keyboard like this would be the best clone on the market, but the VR-09 is very good at a lot of things.

[Jazzwee]

Craig, one of the reasons I posted here was that the other thread was totally pro-SK1/XK1C so it's good to see the other side.

 

As a non-organ player (wanting to learn), obviously I don't know the fine points of the organ sound other than the obvious control of the drawbars and such. So I look for what inspires me to play.

 

My initial gut reaction was I was inspired to play the VK8 (because of the keys) and the VR09 had that key spacing issue and very narrow black keys. It's a little disconcerting for sure because it felt like a toy. I had no issue with the VK8 as far as organ.

 

Now some other thoughts to add here. There's two steps here. Initially I have to LEARN how to use an organ first so my concern is learning organ technique. And I'm intending to play Jazz so some more involved Rock sounds may not be so important.

 

So being that learning will not be instant, this could be a two step process (particularly with the budget concern which is real). I could buy something now, and learn, and then settle on something for gigging a little later.

 

BTW when I get to that point, I have other options including selling the Nord Piano and upgrading to a Nord Stage 2 but it is unlikely I will give up Hammer action.

 

The issues of a gigging instrument become different. I can't lug a VK8 and a Nord Piano. That's out of the question. So when that time comes, I either have to get an All-in-one instrument or a very light clone. Thus the XK1C and VR09 would be the good options for that.

 

In the meantime, I do have a budget, and as much as I would want to GAS for something that has better keys and all the fancy features, I can't afford it right now.

 

Scenarios include thinking only about learning and getting ANYTHING that's cheap. VK8, Spinet, etc. with the intention of reselling it later. Correct me if I'm wrong here but if I resold the VK8, I'd likely recover the entire cost. If I buy new (VR09) I'd have to keep it.

 

I'm totally outside of my comfort zone here because I actually have no idea how long it takes to learn organ technique (starting from being a pianist) to use it in gigs. So if this is a short term process, then obviously it changes the idea of what to buy since gigging will come sooner rather than later.

 

BTW - although my main thing is jazz, we do the occasional Santana and that's when I just wish I had an organ. EP just doesn't work for that.

 

I definitely want to keep my purchase at under $1K (for this learning phase). But if I can't decide, then, I'll have to patiently wait for used.

[lekanout]

Don't misconstrue my thoughts on the value of the VR-09 with me being a big fan of the Roland VK engine.. I don't really like the VK engine and I think it is the least authentic sounding of all the current crop of clones.. The reasons that I don't like the VK engine are probably the same reasons that you don't see a lot of them on the circuit in France.

 

 

Yes i understand.

But i have a question for you:

Do you think the same for classic 70 rock sound?

 

It seems organist never choose roland vk engine for jazz,but some people like the way roland organ sounds for classic dirty 70 sound(steppenwolf,deep purple..etc)

What do you think about that?

 

[CEB]

I'm a rock and I think the VK-7 and VK-8 is fine. It is sort of like the Hammond XB-2. Not necesaary the most authentic but they have balls.

[Craig MacDonald]

Don't misconstrue my thoughts on the value of the VR-09 with me being a big fan of the Roland VK engine.. I don't really like the VK engine and I think it is the least authentic sounding of all the current crop of clones.. The reasons that I don't like the VK engine are probably the same reasons that you don't see a lot of them on the circuit in France.

 

 

Yes i understand.

But i have a question for you:

Do you think the same for classic 70 rock sound?

 

It seems organist never choose roland vk engine for jazz,but some people like the way roland organ sounds for classic dirty 70 sound(steppenwolf,deep purple..etc)

What do you think about that?

 

Lekanout, one of the reasons that people use the VK engine for rock is probably the fact that they have a lot of amp options.. (For that overdriven sound) and they're fairly bright and cut through the mix pretty well.

 

I always thought that they were good for prog rock stuff.

[lekanout]

Thanks!

 

[WesG]

CEB, I'm 99% sure the key size on the VR-09 is within 1mm of the key size of a Hammond spinet...and by extension, your B3000.

 

The problem is not the key spacing, the problem is the distance between the back of the key and the pivot fulcrum. On the VR-09, it is too close, and this makes it difficult to strike the key toward the back. The fulcrum on a Hammond spinet diving board key is nearly four and a half inches behind the key (I just measured). I think that would be phyiscally impossible on the VR-09. It feels to me like it is about an inch back, but I have not taken one apart.

 

Aside from that, I think the VR-09 action is great, and it is a great organ. It is as easy (for me) to do palm smears and glissandi on the VR-09 as I it is to do them on a Hammond diving board spinet. Easier if the spinet has worn key combs. The rounded key fronts and high trigger point are excellent. I don't do knuckle squabbles.

 

I certainly consider the VR-09 wortht of the name "organ". It is not my favourite organ, but it does a fine job, and does a bunch of other stuff, too. For me, it is a keyboard which can take on any function in my rig in a pinch. I still prefer my real organ, and still prefer my weighted 88...but I can get through a gig on the VR-09, no problem.

 

BTW I tend to play my VR-09 on the "Rock Organ" setting. It has some balls, too. Of course, my main gig rig is an L111, so I could be accused of being thin in the top end most of the time anyhow.

 

Wes

[Craig MacDonald]

+ 1000 Wes G..

 

Very well said.. and here's another happy VR-09 camper.. thanks WesG.

 

The fulcrum point is a problem for almost every clone because I'm not sure of any clone that actually duplicates the key length and fulcrum point of a real hammond (except for the New B3 MkII models of course and maybe the XK3c's?).

 

Seriously, let's not exaggerate the problems with the keyboard feel. You may not immediately love it, but it doesn't take much to get used to it.

 

I use the rock organ setting too, always, and I think that even if I was a jazz player, I would probably still use the rock setting. It's just got more presence..

[HAMEGZ]

TODAY (Sunday Easter) ONLY

 

50 bucks off the vr09s price of $798

 

supposed new in box , several still available

 

you sign up for an account apply discount

 

h-e-l-l-o m-u-s-i-c

 

I got no affiliation with them .. just passing along

[BEMcCut]

Over the years I have owned two Korg CX3's (version 1),a Hammond M3,Roland VK8, Roland VR 760 and a VR-09. I still own the VR 760 and the Vr-09. I like the feel of the 760 and yes the 09's keys are not as nice to play. When it comes to going out to play I always grab the 12 pound VR-09.

[HammondDave]

Which company is selling it for that price?

[HAMEGZ]

Which company is selling it for that price?

 

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