Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Bill W]

I think the other advantage is the drawbar organ. That really does differentiate it from the pack of $1k & under boards.

I think they saw the buzz over CASIO's XW-P1 last year and decided people still really want drawbars.

 

I love drawbars.

[HSS]

I have an SK1 and I'm willing to be open-minded about this new Roland VR-09 board, even though I'm not a fanboy of Roland.

 

I really like the SK1's B3 engine, usuable extra voices, and it's portability, but even with the most recent OS update with the higher trigger point, IMO it's compromise action is still not optimal for B3, even with it's waterfall keys. In fact, I preferred the action on my old XK1 for B3, but it had no usable extra voices and it's Leslie Sim and C/V were not as good and tweakable compared to the SK1. Similar comments can be made about the compromise action on the NE's.

 

IMHO if Roland improves on it's VK8 B3 engine and onboard Leslie Sim on the VR-09 and gets them even in the same league with the SK1's and the NE's, its compromised B3 action and lack of waterfall keys may not be that big a deal compared to the NE's and the SK1 which also have compromised B3 action. If this indeed ends up being the case, the VR-09 could be a Gamechanger and possibly a SK1 / NE killer, especially with its much lower pricepoint, high quality extra voices, full ability to split/ layer, pitch bend/ mod, and probably better Midi capabilities.

 

Of course Hammond purists will still stick with dedicated fairly authentic clones like XK3c's, Mojo's, Key B's, Nord C2's, and Numa's, so there will likely be no competetion from the VR-09 in this market.

 

WRG to previous comments about possible build quality issues with the lightweight relatively cheap VR-09, IMHO there is not much of a correlation between price point, weight, and build quality. I've had expensive boards that weighed a ton and were built like tanks that broke down repeatedly on me and I've had cheap lightweight boards like the Privia PX330 I currently have that takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

 

The bottom line for me is that I'll just have to wait for some hands-on experience with Roland's new offering before passing judgement as to whether it is a worthy competitor to the the SK1 and the NE's. But, as always, I'm prepared to be disappointed.

[voxpops]

I think the other advantage is the drawbar organ. That really does differentiate it from the pack of $1k & under boards.

I think they saw the buzz over CASIO's XW-P1 last year and decided people still really want drawbars.

 

I love drawbars.

I agree. I've had four Electros, and every time thought that I ought to be able to get used to the "drawbuttons," but always felt hamstrung by the darn things. Now, Nord presents us with the option of drawbars and a 61-key board with inadequate memory, or a 73 with the dreaded buttons. Thanks!

 

The Casio is an interesting board (I have one) but for me its only use is as a controller for VB3, and occasional mono synth leads. The drawbars controlling the onboard organ are poorly implemented with a huge jump from registration 0 to 1, and the organ tone is thin, with a toytown rotary sim. But I still applaud Casio for taking steps towards a more interesting product range.

[Craig MacDonald]

Krome and the VR09 both $999. The Krome is vastly superior in terms of what's underneath the hood, but the Roland is far more user-friendly for the unsophisticated player. If the Roland keybed is from from the Juno 50/80, that would give it another advantage.

 

I'm thinking of downsizing my rig to match my reduced gigging activity, and the Krome is very tempting. This VR09, not so much.

 

Adan, just to elaborate a bit on your point, the VR-09 is not a workstation.. the Krome and MOX's etc are all low end workstations.. There is no question in my mind that the VR-09 is more of a clone+ (clone with other voices) just like the SK1!

 

The lines are blurring between a workstation and a dedicated clones, as the clones add additional sounds and the workstations begin to add clone engines.. some clones like the Nord stuff have better AP's and EP's than the some of the workstations, and some of the workstations have clone engines that can rival the dedicated clones.. the lines are blurring.

 

However, I tend to divide the two categories based on multi-timbral and split/layer capability.. Workstations with organ engines (like the Kurzweil and Kronos) can manage dramatically more splits and layers.. and operate with 16 tones on 16 different midi channels with one of them still being a drawbar organ. On the other hand the dedicated clones (clone+) may have some great pianos and EP's etc but they are typically limited to 1 or 2 sounds simultaneously.

 

The VR-09 definately falls into the dedicated clone+ category.. a clone with extra sounds and limited multitibral capability. While it's not a direct competitor of the low end worstations like the MOX etc, it will most definately take a bite out of both SK1 and low end workstation sales, because of it's ability to manipulate drawbars, bread and butter sounds and low price point!

 

Minor details aside, for many of us, when choosing between a clone and a workstation like a VR-09 or a Korg Krome, or an SK1 vs a Motif, really boils down to multitibrality vs the ability to manipulate drawbars. Because they both have reasonably good bread and butter sounds that you need for live performances. I faced this exact decision last year when I returned a Hammond SK1 and purchased a Korg Kronos.. the split/layer multitimbral capability of the Kronos won out over the SK1 organ, because I got so much more with the Kronos as far as other extra sounds, voices and multi-timbrality, that it made CX3 compromise seem quite insignificant.

[Sam Mullins]

I think the other advantage is the drawbar organ. That really does differentiate it from the pack of $1k & under boards.

I think they saw the buzz over CASIO's XW-P1 last year and decided people still really want drawbars.

 

I love drawbars.

 

One additional consideration for the potential success of this unit: for people in small and mid-size markets, this may be the only unit at their local Guitar Center (or equivalent) that has drawbars. The smaller Guitar Centers I've been at don't typically have either the SK1 or the Nords on the floor.

[voxpops]

I'm very close to thinking the VR-09 is worth a gamble at $999. I'd like to hear more, but the fact that it has sliders that look no worse than those on the NE4D, sports an uprated Leslie sim, has some live synth-shaping parameters, plus some reasonably good pianos for backup use, all make it quite appealing. I doubt it'll hold its value like a Nord, but then it has less far to fall...

[Marillo]

The clav sounds pretty nasty on this thing, for those who need it. You can hear it in the first vid posted earlier where the demo guy takes the wah effect off, leaving it dry for a few seconds. Very weak.

[allan_evett]

Clavs don't seem to be Rolands strong point, currently. Even moving up to the JP-50 doesn't help things a whole lot; better effects, maybe.... When I gig with the JP-50, the clavs are passable; and I've tweaked 'em a bit.

 

The best hardware instrument clav I've heard is in the SK-1. To get that level of clav, Scarbee is the only other option I have; that would mean using a MacBook Pro in a club. Not going there.

 

Even Nord needs to upgrade their clav samples; though they're still ahead of what Roland, Korg, and Yamaha put in their current line-up, IMO. I feel that Kurzweil actually does a respectable job with their clavs. Perhaps we'll see some great new clavs from Korg (SV2 ?), or Yamaha (???). Maybe that new Casio piece will surprise us.

 

Seems that the VR-09's strongest points are the drawbars/ VK+ level organ, and synth engine. Price doesn't hurt, either. Would be very cool if Roland followed up with a VR-1: a 76 key VR-09 combined with a JP-50 level engine; something more compact and practical than the VR-700. A 'VR-1' would be the right step forward from the VR-760, IMO.

[Bobadohshe]

I kind of understand Roland's thinking of an entry level organ engine ++ for those with a tighter budget. But I don't understand this target as younger musicians don't exactly play organ-style music and those who do this are usually in a middle-income level where they could afford a Nord and seldom care about loopers and synth patches.

 

Interesting point.

[AnotherScott]

Clavs don't seem to be Rolands strong point, currently. Even moving up to the JP-50 doesn't help things a whole lot; better effects, maybe.... When I gig with the JP-50, the clavs are passable; and I've tweaked 'em a bit.

 

The best hardware instrument clav I've heard is in the SK-1. To get that level of clav, Scarbee is the only other option I have; that would mean using a MacBook Pro in a club. Not going there.

 

Even Nord needs to upgrade their clav samples; though they're still ahead of what Roland, Korg, and Yamaha put in their current line-up, IMO. I feel that Kurzweil actually does a respectable job with their clavs. Perhaps we'll see some great new clavs from Korg (SV2 ?), or Yamaha (???). Maybe that new Casio piece will surprise us.

You have a Kronos too, right? Have you checked out Busch's clav?

 

http://thekronosblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/purgatory-creek-clavinet-d6-ca.html

[Dana.]

But I don't understand this target as younger musicians don't exactly play organ-style music and those who do this are usually in a middle-income level where they could afford a Nord and seldom care about loopers and synth patches.

+1

 

For perspective, I can't tell you how many times I've seen smaller bands use a Juno-Di or Juno-G live for just one or two string or synth sounds. And Electros are so prevalent, I think Roland will have a tough time stealing some of that market, even regardless of the VR-09's cheaper price.

[Craig MacDonald]

I don't necessarily think that this is targeted at younger audiences (although the looping capability and built in drums might suggest that), I think the target audience is anyone interested In 13 pound instrument with all this capability.. So us old guys with bad backs are very interested, as are first time buyers, or workstation users that want to add a drawbar organ or any gigging keyboard player that wants a simple inexpensive lightweight board to drag to rehearsals.

[HSS]

I think the target audience is anyone interested In 13 pound instrument with all this capability.. So us old guys with bad backs are very interested, as are first time buyers, or workstation users that want to add a drawbar organ or any gigging keyboard player that wants a simple inexpensive lightweight board to drag to rehearsals.

 

You nailed the reasons why I (an old guy with a bad knee) bought my SK1 and the reasons why I'm now interested in the VR-09 which is half the price of the SK1 and NE3/4D, but hopefully not half the quality (at least for the organ).

[The_Star_Guy]

Check out this latest demo video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCpsCMb8I94

 

 

Looper, organ sounds, drums and especially leads sounds are a lot more than adequate!

 

I'm starting to think that H/S may have to seriously consider a price adjustment. I'm no longer on the fence about this one. At the $999 street price, it is now on my "review & buy" short list.

[AnotherScott]

Pretty inventive demo video, it has a plot! Interesting that they make a point of the board having appeal even to someone who owns a Jupiter 80 and an Integra.

[niacin]

I'm looking at the drawbar sliders and there are buttons in front of them where my wrist would be resting when I'm tweaking them.

 

Otherwise this looks like a nice board given the price point, perfect as a rehearsal board. I had a Juno stage for a while, the keys were good, but the DACs were not top tier (the same patches sounded much clearer on my FantomX rack). I suspect the keys on this will be a step down, probably same as Juno G/D.

 

If this gets young players with less cash into playing drawbars then I hope they sell a ton of them.

[Craig MacDonald]

yes cool demo but the VK organ sounds so... rinky dinky.. sorry.. I love this thing on paper, but I'm struggling with the organ tone... we need a good organ demo..!!!

[Dana.]

The RD-64 is $999 as well.

I think that's too high to compete with the Privias and Yamaha P105/P35.

[Dana.]

The VR-09 appears to have the same keys as the Juno-Di and Juno-G. I detest this action.

[AnotherScott]

The RD-64 is $999 as well.

I think that's too high to compete with the Privias and Yamaha P105/P35.

Yeah... I think its selling point would have been the enhanced MIDI controller functionality, pitch/mod, etc. But it looks like the new Casio will address that, at lower weight and with (IMO) a better action. We'll have to see where the new Casio is priced, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't undercut the Roland.

[Dana.]

While I like the idea of 64 weighted keys -- Hello Wurli! -- and the form factor, the Ivory Feel G is one of the crappiest weighted actions going.

[Ekewaka]

Weight-wise SK1 and Nords are not that heavy... Just cost much more. I don't know how VR-09 sounds in real life but if their organs/el pianos are lifeless, then less interest from me.

[Adan]

The VR-09 appears to have the same keys as the Juno-Di and Juno-G. I detest this action.

 

It's a gigging tool. People who are gigging often make compromises. I don't know of any action in a sub-15 lb keyboard that I'd call "good."

[AnotherScott]

I don't know of any action in a sub-15 lb keyboard that I'd call "good."

It's subjective of course, and people may disagree, but I was pretty impressed with the action of the Casio XW-P1. Better than the actions in the lightweight Korg, Yamaha, and Nord boards, anyway.

[The_Star_Guy]

yes cool demo but the VK organ sounds so... rinky dinky.. sorry.. I love this thing on paper, but I'm struggling with the organ tone... we need a good organ demo..!!!

 

I love this thing on paper as well. And I also agree that we need a better organ demo as well. But after reviewing the parameters that can be edited in the Ipad app, the sheer flexibility of this piece can't be denied. The synth editor in particular includes considerable access to numerous waveform options, including Roland's "Supersaw" waveform, as well as PCM options. Considering the inherent tweakability factor, this puts it ahead of both the Nord and the SK series with regards to synth & extra voice capabilities.

 

After listening to the demo thru headphones, I heard sufficient tonal & timbral variations on the organ sound to convince me that it is not the same old VK engine anymore, and that some enhancements have been made. A hands on test will of course be necessary to determine the extent of the improvements made, but it was enough to convince me that this keyboard will be a bonifide sonic enhancement to my rig, which is what music is all about. Besides I already have an XK-2 for the "purist" in me, and I'm now equally intrigued by the new "tricks" that this board seems capable of. It's always important for us older dogs to be able to learn new tricks!

[Marillo]

These demos all focus very much on the Looper, which while an interesting novelty has no real application in a real-world situation.

 

Sure, you can create a loop but are you going to keep that going for longer than 5 minutes? How tedious for everyone! So then the only way to create another section is to restart another loop from scratch. Just not practical.

 

A basic and easy to use sequencer would really have given this piece the edge.

[Ekewaka]

These demos all focus very much on the Looper, which while an interesting novelty has no real application in a real-world situation.

 

Sure, you can create a loop but are you going to keep that going for longer than 5 minutes? How tedious for everyone! So then the only way to create another section is to restart another loop from scratch. Just not practical.

 

A basic and easy to use sequencer would really have given this piece the edge.

 

It's pretty easy to add a looper in firmware, a button, some RAM and a little bit logic to add buffers to existing ones for overdubs. But yes, looping in live, it gets boring after a minute or two.

[AnotherScott]

Sure, you can create a loop but are you going to keep that going for longer than 5 minutes? How tedious for everyone!

You want music to not be tedious? You're about 20 years too late. ;-)

 

Seriously, it is amazing how many songs have basically the same chords and same beat going through the entire song these days... the chorus is the same as the verse, and the concept of a bridge is disappearing entirely. So yes, you can, unfortunately, do an entire song with a looper...

[Craig MacDonald]

I'm really not convinced that tis is a new organ... But there are differences.. I hear what sounds like perhaps a better Leslie sim but it can be really hard to hear that level of detail on these demos.. One thing I notice is a lack of amp types. I think there used to be a numer of types available on the original VK but that seems to be missing in the vr09 editor screen.. The combo organs are a nice touch, they will come in handy for many keyboard players. AND I wonder if the organ editor changes from Drawbars to tabs when you switch to combo organ mode??

[The_Star_Guy]

I agree that the Looper is not a sequencer substitute. I just look at as a "real-time" compositional tool for getting ideas down. Any keepers from doodlings would then be transferred to my DAW or another sequencer for polishing and finishing. I still view this board as a live/rehearsal/stage piece of gear more than anything else. And since it supports USB audio recording, there's that, too. The important thing, I think is to determine how best to integrate it into your workflow and creative process.