Crumar Mojo Review - Gig Tested

[AnotherScott]

 

1- Theyre NOT clones. Theyre not even trying.

2- Since organ is not primary, and only an add-on, its unfair to judge their quality to a dedicated clonewheel.

They are trying, based on some of their marketing material. And some people do feel that they are competitive with dedicated clones. You may not. But that's the kind of thing an article like this can help delineate.

 

They dont have organ ergonomics, so those things will unfairly handicap them.

Yes. That's why I was thinking of it as more of a companion piece, rather than a head-to-head. Of course we want to know if they sound as good, or how close they come. But beyond that, yes, there are questions of how much ergonomic compromise is there, beyond the obvious lack of actual properly spaced, properly shaped drawbars.

 

5- If you cant afford a dedicated clonewheel, its highly unlike you can afford a Kronos.

Bizarre argument, IMO. But anyway...

 

The Kronos can ostensibly function as a clonewheel, whereas all the listed clonewheels (apart from SK2, which has its Extra Voices) can't perform any function other than clonewheel. Since many players need additional sounds, it's not even just a matter of comparing the price of a Kronos to the price of a clonewheel... it can be one of comparing the price of a Kronos to the sum total of the price of a clonewheel plus, at a minimum, some other piano/rompler/synth.

 

But really, I don't think price is the point. Some percentage of the readership may be able to afford one, the other, both, or neither. It doesn't make the analysis less valuable or interesting overall.

 

Pragmatically speaking, there's also the issue of how much stage space you're willing to take up, and how much you can fit in your car, too. For many people who love to play organ, a dedicated clonewheel in addition to their other gear is just not a practical way to go, as much as they like to, even if they could afford it all. But it is certainly possible that they might choose their multi-function board based largely on how good a clonewheel it is.

 

Overall reviews of Kronos, Jupiter 80, Kurzweil, have to cover a myriad of features in a single review, the organ is never covered in the kind of detail offered in a clonewheel shootout, and I think that could be quite valuable.

 

 

[mate stubb]

Too many cooks in the kitchen. Mr. Fortner, please stick to the original plan!

[CEB]

Better include the TX81Z.

[Adan]

Too many cooks in the kitchen. Mr. Fortner, please stick to the original plan!

 

I agree.

 

I am thoroughly unimpressed with the Jupiter 80 Hammond. It's useable only if there is not another clone within 20 miles.

 

[Tobias Åslund]

Too many cooks in the kitchen. Mr. Fortner, please stick to the original plan!

 

Better include the TX81Z.

[Craig MacDonald]

Too many cooks in the kitchen. Mr. Fortner, please stick to the original plan!

 

Mr. Fortner asked.. and we answered.. !! Please Mr. Fortner sir, don't overlook the hundreds of Keyboard Magazine readers who want to know how their Kronos CX3 engine, and Kurzweil KB3 mode really stack up against the dedicated clones!!!!

[Jim Alfredson]

Why? It's pretty obvious how they stack up to the dedicated clones. Poorly. Go watch any YouTube video and it's self evident.

[Joe Muscara]

I think boards that are not dedicated clones could have their "organ" features covered separately or in a sidebar. But don't muddy the original plan.

[drawback]

Why? It's pretty obvious how they stack up to the dedicated clones. Poorly. Go watch any YouTube video and it's self evident.

 

So the same topic can be further debated to the ends of the known universe for another year?

 

 

 

[CEB]

Engines are overrated. I don't play an engine. I play with my organ.

[Craig MacDonald]

Why? It's pretty obvious how they stack up to the dedicated clones. Poorly. Go watch any YouTube video and it's self evident.

 

I don't know about the Kurzweil KB3 mode but there's not a lot of Kronos CX3 youtube videos floating around so I'm not sure exactly what you've based your opinion on? I think you're just afraid of how well they might do!

 

I'm not a fan of the Kuzweil KB3 mode, but I do know from personal experience that the Kronos CX3 engine is suprisingly good, and not far off the quality of the current crop of clones (it wasn't so long ago that the CX3 was the best clone around).

 

So why not let the folks at keyboard magazine include these and we'll find out once and for all, exactly how good they are?

 

As we go forward, there are going to be more and more "cross-over" products, more keyboards that blur the lines between clone, all -in-one, and workstation. Why not compare a Hammond SK1 which is a "dedicated" clone + some extra voices, to a Korg Kronos which is high end workstation that has an updated CX3 clone engine?

 

This is a very valid comparison.. with the extra voices, the SK1/2 are venturing into the all-in-one keyboard territory, and with the CX3 engine the Kronos is stepping into Clone country... So let them go head to head.. !!!!

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes. I am "afraid" of the Kronos. I go to bed every night terrified that it is better than every other keyboard known to man and since my own self-worth is intimately tied to the keyboard I play, it is thus better than me.

 

After all, nothing says "authentic Hammond experience" like black plastic, a 2 1/2 minute boot up time, faders for drawbars, non-waterfall keys, and a giant touchscreen. I think that's what Laurens Hammond was originally going for with the B3 but couldn't work out the manufacturing bugs.

 

By all accounts the CX3 engine in the Kronos is the same one in the CX3, released 12 years ago. Hence the name "CX3 engine". Whoopee!

 

If you actually read the list of candidates for the shoot-out Mr. Fortner posted, you should realize that they are all two manual clonewheels, with the exception of the Numa. In other words, they are actually designed like an organ, to be played like an organ, with similar controls to an organ, not designed to be a jack-of-all-trades. In other words, they are first and foremost clonewheels, who's major purpose is to emulate a Hammond organ. They are not workstations that happen to have an outdated organ engine in them.

 

Stick with the plan, Mr. Fortner!

[kanker.]

Hmmm...black plastic, faders for drawbars.....the SK's halfway there!

[Jim Alfredson]

They should've added a huge touchscreen and an FM synthesis engine so we can get authentic DX7 tines from our organ.

[bhodaway10]

I'm pretty open minded as to what keyboards get picked but I'd like an emphasis on the ones Stephen has already picked.

 

Like Moe, I'd like to hear the evaluate basic tone, chorus vib, click, percussion, leslie sim, overdrive and others for each instrument.

 

[M_G]

Hi,

 

great roundup.

Maybe it could be interesting to include a NewB3mk2Portable. I think it has different CV and Tubepreamp as the XK3c and a complete drawbar-set as the C2D and the new KeyBDuo.

 

IMO including synth/rompler-workstation makes no sense. I like the Kronos very much (I sold my Kurzweil PC3 for it) but the CX3 is not on par with my Numa or XK3c. I like it better than the KB3 but both are more or less add-ons......

 

As another member mentioned, the new Ferrofish Expander could be interesting too.

 

[ZioGuido]

Why don't you include a real vintage tonewheel Hammond organ as a reference? Clones should be compared to a real Hammond, not to other clones, methinks.

[Aidan]

Why don't you include a real vintage tonewheel Hammond organ as a reference? Clones should be compared to a real Hammond, not to other clones, methinks.

 

The only problem with that, of course, is - precisely which Hammond would we be talking about? As Jim has often pointed out here (and I'm sure Guido also knows better than most) there can be very sharp differences in the sound of even one same-year B3 to another.

 

It seems to me that our search for "authenticity" in a clonewheel is more to do with achieving a general "vibe" rather than a specific tone palette.

 

[HammondDave]

I can't believe I am reading this.... First of all, judging from past KM "Clone Shootouts" it's really not much of a competition, but a mutual love fest of companies that advertise in their magazine. We are not talking about Consumer Reports here... And please don't think that I am questioning Steve's journalistic ethics. I love reading his articles and commend him on his interviews. It's just a fact that commercial magazines will never knock its advertisers. It's how they survive...

 

And even if the shootout was 100% legit, it's incredibly subjective on how a Hammond should sound. I have found myself disagreeing with my all time Hammond hero Booker T. regarding some of his comments about the XK3. And some of the other comments by respective artists were just off the wall. In fact, we learned that one of the reviewers was an endorser for the company whose board he raved about!

 

So don't get your panties in an uproar over which clone, or workstation should be included. Believe me, they will end the article by saying something like "The current generation of Hammond clonewheels are closer to the real deal than ever! Any one of these keyboards will fool even the most die hard Hammond fan into thinking he is hearing a real Hammond console on stage. But to us, the one Clonewheel that slightly rises above the others is the .......". In other words, they will love them all.

[Craig MacDonald]

So don't get your panties in an uproar over which clone, or workstation should be included. Believe me, they will end the article by saying something like "The current generation of Hammond clonewheels are closer to the real deal than ever! Any one of these keyboards will fool even the most die hard Hammond fan into thinking he is hearing a real Hammond console on stage. But to us, the one Clonewheel that slightly rises above the others is the .......". In other words, they will love them all.

 

Dave, absolutely agree with this.. however, I also think it's a true statment that all the new crop of clones are fantastic.. and the difference between one and another will simply end up being a matter of taste with respect to the sound and feel, and individual requirements like extra voices y/n, how many drawbars, drawfaders vs real drawbars etc...

 

BTW I also agree with you on another point... let's make sure that we don't have any endorsed artists on this panel of judges this time! Even if they are truly unbiased, simply the possibility or perception of bias can ruin the shootout (like yourself I was shocked to find out that there was a sponsored artist in the last shootout raving about the product he promoted).

 

I still think that based on the number of Kurzweil and Kronos owners that read Keyboard Magazine, they should be included even if it's just as a sidebar.

 

[WheelHead]

and the difference between one and another will simply end up being a matter of taste with respect to the sound and feel, and individual requirements like extra voices y/n, how many drawbars, drawfaders vs real drawbars etc...

 

So because the latest generation of clones are so quality in the emulation it becomes a beauty contest of subjective views? Problematic in my view where as before there was a greater disparity in quality. There is also the 'live mix' question. How does each clone sound in a live situation for cut and band perception. Of course there is a lot more to the instrument than just the sound. The ergonomics. Controls=classic or manufacturer designed? General keyboard feel and vibe from playing the instrument.

 

I don't think an article will change many minds though very helpful, imo. Minds are changed many times by noticing a consensus of buyers who have spent a lot of time before the purchase and reviews thereof. It also should only be performed with the top 4 or 5 dedicated clones, imo. Perhaps another review at a later time of 'organ clones in other synths and samplers not dedicated organ clones' with a much greater number.

 

W.

[Joe Muscara]

I can't believe I am reading this.... First of all, judging from past KM "Clone Shootouts" it's really not much of a competition, but a mutual love fest of companies that advertise in their magazine. We are not talking about Consumer Reports here... And please don't think that I am questioning Steve's journalistic ethics. I love reading his articles and commend him on his interviews. It's just a fact that commercial magazines will never knock its advertisers. It's how they survive...

So you're saying they won't like the Mojo, the Studiologic, the KeyB, and the Ventura, but love the Hammonds, Nord, and Roland?

 

[HammondDave]

I can't believe I am reading this.... First of all, judging from past KM "Clone Shootouts" it's really not much of a competition, but a mutual love fest of companies that advertise in their magazine. We are not talking about Consumer Reports here... And please don't think that I am questioning Steve's journalistic ethics. I love reading his articles and commend him on his interviews. It's just a fact that commercial magazines will never knock its advertisers. It's how they survive...

So you're saying they won't like the Mojo, the Studiologic, the KeyB, and the Ventura, but love the Hammonds, Nord, and Roland?

 

:

 

No, I am not saying that at all.. I believe I said that they will love them all.... It has nothing to do with dissing the people who don't advertise with them... No one is that transparent, or classless...

 

Plus, the more companies in the market, the better for everyone... Including Keyboard Magazine.

[AnotherScott]

Why don't you include a real vintage tonewheel Hammond organ as a reference? Clones should be compared to a real Hammond, not to other clones, methinks.

True... even though real tonewheel Hammonds do sound different from each other, they all undeniably do share a certain realism! And then of course Leslies sound different as well... though arguably, one could manage to get the tonewheel Hammond out to a Ventilator to help factor out that difference, if desired. I don't it is essential, but it would be a nice extra, to have a real tonewheel around for comparison... even if only to make some particular point now and then.

 

OTOH, I'm not sure I see much point for including the Hammond XK-3C Pro as a reference. It's kind of arbitrary. In fact, based on the last shootout, unless it was played through a real Leslie, it did not fare well at all, so it's not like it's even the best of the previous bunch.

 

(The relevant video is at http://bcove.me/5odcwhu4 -- can anyone tell me how to embed that here?)

 

I think that, apart from the Ventura, it was the only hardware model there that every single one of them found something about it they disliked.

 

It did get the highest marks when run through a Leslie, though... clearly the pick of the litter then. I guess maybe it would be interesting to see how it fared through a Ventilator.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but outside of the Leslie simulation wouldn't the SK-1 sound like the XK3c? I seem to remember reading that the underlying organ engine was the same, no? (Of course, the XK3c is far more tweakable, but unless you're actually going to tweak as part of the shootout, that won't come into play in a comparison.)

 

Something I was disappointed about last time is that no one tried to "grind" the organs, we never really heard them pushed into overdrive, we only heard them played politely. I hope that is addressed this time, as it is a substantial point of difference as well.

 

It might also be cool to hear the "Green Onions" lick played on all of them. We know for sure, from another video, exactly how BT has his organ set to get that sound (which, if I remember, has no leslie at all?). So it would be interesting to see (a) how much these organs vary in tone with this exact same registration, and (b) if any seems to come closest to the real thing. (Not that that would by any means indicate that it would necessarily come closest in many other scenarios, I understand... different registrations, different keyboard ranges, C/V settings, etc., but it would still be interesting.)

 

BTW, the CX3 acquitted itself rather well in that shootout (certainly better than the XK-3c, outside of using a real Leslie). So I wouldn't be so quick to assume that a Kronos could not sonically hold its own against a "real" clonewheel. And no, it was not merely the opinion of the player who was a Korg endorser. Though it was funny how, at the end, he almost said that the earlier version of the digital Korg CX3 had a better feeling action than the then-shipping version, and he kind of soft-pedaled it a bit, transitioning to "well, it's kind of what you get used to." I happen to agree, the earlier digital CX3 did feel better than the later one (or the XK1, XK3c, or Nords), I think they and the Rolands feel best. I know the later CX3 used a Fatar keybed (probably the same as the XK1), I've been curious to know whether the earlier one was Fatar as well, anyone know?

[Joe Muscara]

I can't believe I am reading this.... First of all, judging from past KM "Clone Shootouts" it's really not much of a competition, but a mutual love fest of companies that advertise in their magazine. We are not talking about Consumer Reports here... And please don't think that I am questioning Steve's journalistic ethics. I love reading his articles and commend him on his interviews. It's just a fact that commercial magazines will never knock its advertisers. It's how they survive...

So you're saying they won't like the Mojo, the Studiologic, the KeyB, and the Ventura, but love the Hammonds, Nord, and Roland?

 

:

 

No, I am not saying that at all.. I believe I said that they will love them all.... It has nothing to do with dissing the people who don't advertise with them... No one is that transparent, or classless..

Did I forget to say ?

 

[CEB]

Hammonds shouldn't be included in the shootout because they are not clones. They are Hammonds, which is what the clones are trying to be.

[ZioGuido]

I'm not saying that a Hammond should be one of the objects of the shootout, it's needless to judge the quality of an Hammond at the present day, but if a reference has to be taken, I feel it's important that the reference is the real Hammond, not a fake one. Any real console Hammond (B3, C3, A100).

 

I know that Hammonds are all diferent one each other, but having one over there, turned on and at their fingertip while they evaluate the digital boards, is important because they can compare, at any time, how a real Hammond actually behaves, not what it sounds like. For example, if they have to judge the behaviour of the percussion, or the key click, or any other relevant detail of a clonewheel, they'd have to refer to a real tonewheel Hammond which represents "the truth".

 

 

[AnotherScott]

Hammonds shouldn't be included in the shootout because they are not clones. They are Hammonds, which is what the clones are trying to be.

Scott May would agree with the sentiment... which I guess means that the SK2 shouldn't be tested either! ;-)

 

But as for having a real tonewheel model in the room, it might be helpful to directly compare some things to the original that is trying to be duplicated...

[Tonysounds]

1- Theyre NOT clones. Theyre not even trying.

2- Since organ is not primary, and only an add-on, its unfair to judge their quality to a dedicated clonewheel.

They are trying, based on some of their marketing material.

 

Marketing, schmarketing. Theyre throwing everything into this machine to make it all things to all people, but Kronos is no more a clonewheel than OASYS. (which also had the CX3 engine)

 

And some people do feel that they are competitive with dedicated clones. You may not.

 

 

During Roland Ronald Reagans reign, the FDA redefined ketchup as a vegetable for school lunch programs, but guess what: ketchup is not a vegetable. "Some people" does not equate to organists.

 

 

But that's the kind of thing an article like this can help delineate.

 

Yeah, sure, except for the whole CLONE SHOOTOUT thing.

 

 

5- If you cant afford a dedicated clonewheel, its highly unlike you can afford a Kronos.

Bizarre argument, IMO. But anyway...

 

Taken out of context, that "argument" makes no sense, as it shouldn't, as it debates another point entirely. Thanks for playing! I look forward to the next tome.

[Adan]

I can't believe I am reading this.... First of all, judging from past KM "Clone Shootouts" it's really not much of a competition, but a mutual love fest of companies that advertise in their magazine. We are not talking about Consumer Reports here... And please don't think that I am questioning Steve's journalistic ethics. I love reading his articles and commend him on his interviews. It's just a fact that commercial magazines will never knock its advertisers. It's how they survive...

 

And even if the shootout was 100% legit, it's incredibly subjective on how a Hammond should sound. I have found myself disagreeing with my all time Hammond hero Booker T. regarding some of his comments about the XK3. And some of the other comments by respective artists were just off the wall. In fact, we learned that one of the reviewers was an endorser for the company whose board he raved about!

 

So don't get your panties in an uproar over which clone, or workstation should be included. Believe me, they will end the article by saying something like "The current generation of Hammond clonewheels are closer to the real deal than ever! Any one of these keyboards will fool even the most die hard Hammond fan into thinking he is hearing a real Hammond console on stage. But to us, the one Clonewheel that slightly rises above the others is the .......". In other words, they will love them all.

 

Quite the "get off my lawn" diatribe!

 

I think clonewheel shoppers are, in general, non-gullible in the extreme.