Crumar Mojo Review - Gig Tested

[CEB]

Kronos, you got to be kidding. I would rather play organ on a B3000 than a Kronos. My General Electric microwave is more organ like than that thing. That is like putting a pickup truck engine in a 4 door sedan car and labeling the car a pickup truck.

[HammondDave]

 

Quite the "get off my lawn" diatribe!

 

I think clonewheel shoppers are, in general, non-gullible in the extreme.

 

Now that you mention it.... GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!! Little bastards!

[CEB]

That's the spirit!

[Jim Alfredson]

BTW, as much as I love Booker T, I agree with Hammondave that his opinions in that shootout were rather goofy. The whole tuning thing he kept harping on is a non-starter. Real Hammonds do the same thing. I think I mentioned on that thread how I measured the notes he mentioned with TuneLab, a $300 professional tuning software that is accurate down to .01 of a cent and my XK3 and my '54 C2 were exactly the same. So there is no tuning issue as he claimed to hear in that video.

 

I played a Kronos 61 just mere hours ago at my local music store. Went in to buy a SM58 and saw they had a Kronos on the floor. Monkeyed around with it. Cool APs, cool EPs, nice synthesis engines. CX3 engine sounds like a CX3. No surprise there.

[Joe Muscara]

Stephen,

 

If you see this, one thing you might want to consider including is how each clone sounds in mono using the built-in Leslie sim. Also, does each one have a mono output or mono setting.

[AnotherScott]

yes, quality of rotary effect when playing in mono, good call

[Charleston]

To simplify, should the leslie sims be held off for another shootout altogether?

 

Wouldn't comparing the organ sections be enough for one shootout?

 

Wouldn't just a proper leslie/rotary sim shootout (& comparison to the variations of originals) be interesting, and very involved, considering all the factors?

[LX88]

My feeling is that part of the equation of the a good clone sound is what you are playing it through and how you make adjustments to it, particularly if you are using any other speaker than a leslie.

 

I am not sure if this was taken into account too much during the last shootout. Booker and Chester seemed very unfamiliar with clones in general, and Coster was obviously in the role of Korg endorsee.

 

What Dave was saying about KM not risking saying anything bad did not hold true for the Ventura, which got trashed in the last shootout. I have never heard one but it seemes that it sort of vanished after that, possibly because of the results of that evaluation.

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

To simplify, should the leslie sims be held off for another shootout altogether?

I would say no, because in most cases, the leslie sims we're talking about cannot be used separately, they can only be used with the organ they are part of.

 

So, assuming someone isn't necessarily buying a Ventilator, if they are comparing, say, an SK2 and a C2D, and they say that one's leslie effect is much better than the other, that might give a wrong impression to a reader if they were only tested in stereo, and the potential buyer would be using it in mono. So knowing how good these organs (with their built in sims) sound in mono would be very valuable, I think.

[ZioGuido]

For me, there are two ways to evaluate Hammond clones:

- all with internal leslie speaker

- all connected to the same vintage Leslie

 

If you just want to evaluate the quality of the organ simulation and compare it to a real Hammond, all organs (including any original Hammond) should be connected to the same Leslie.

 

But if you want to compare Hammond clones as complete simulation of a Hammond + Leslie setup, you should connect them all to the same PA speakers and use the internal simulations.

 

Leslie simulations alone are another story.

[Jim Alfredson]

I would add a third way: The raw sound of the clone vs. the raw sound of the Hammond, direct off the preamp. Then you'll know how each one will fare through a real Leslie or simulator.

[Al Coda]

For me, there are two ways to evaluate Hammond clones:

- all with internal leslie speaker

- all connected to the same vintage Leslie

 

If you just want to evaluate the quality of the organ simulation and compare it to a real Hammond, all organs (including any original Hammond) should be connected to the same Leslie.

 

Because a real Hammond comes without a Leslie at all,- I´d say each clone and real Hammond should be compared for pure tone and quality of percussion and C/V without any Leslie and Leslie sim at all,- all connected to the same mixer and same active speakers.

 

The next step should be comparing ´em being connected to the same real Leslie.

 

But if you want to compare Hammond clones as complete simulation of a Hammond + Leslie setup, you should connect them all to the same PA speakers and use the internal simulations.

 

Yep,- test No. 3.

 

Leslie simulations alone are another story.

 

All w/ NEO Ventilator thru the same mixer/active speaker combo as mentioned above might be interesting.

 

A.C.

[ZioGuido]

I would add a third way: The raw sound of the clone vs. the raw sound of the Hammond, direct off the preamp. Then you'll know how each one will fare through a real Leslie or simulator.

 

That's of course the best way to compare just the basic organ sound, provided that the Hammond is properly connected to the same mixer where all other clones are plugged.

 

I say that because in the last 5-6 years I've seen people trying to do these tests in the most stupid ways, kind of plugging a clone with leslie sim to two Leslies in stop position with the horns up front, or comparing a clone with leslie sim in stop position to a A100 with its internal speakers... and so on...

 

 

[mate stubb]

Taking a lot of the good ideas mentioned, here's my personal prescription for a useful and successful shootout:

 

1. Try to have a good sounding tonewheel organ and 122 or 147 around for comparison - not to judge absolute fidelity of the clones, but to have a benchmark for aliveness, girth, and power. If all that is available is a bad sounding beater, don't bother!

 

2. Keep it to dedicated clones to make the comparisons manageable. Make them the latest models - there's no point really in testing the XK-3 when XK-3C and the SKs are out. Ditto for Nord C-1 or C-2 vs the new C2D.

 

3. Don't waste your time testing clones thru a real leslie. They will all sound great - it is a magic box which will make even a lowly Farfisa sound magnificent.

 

4. Do take the time to test each clone with a Ventilator. Some clones with poorer sims will sound better with the Vent, some with good sims may not match up well with the Vent, and others will not see an improvement worth mentioning. We need to know this!

 

5. Ergonomics, build quality, and action are important - mention them! How easy is it to schlep?

 

6. Individual parts I would want to know about:

-a. Basic tone - with leslie stopped and vibrato and percussion off, does it still have the aliveness and interest of a real tonewheel, or is it dull and static?

 

-b. Tonal balance - can you get an 888000000 that has detail instead of muddy bassy mush, while simultaneously getting 888888888 that doesn't rip your face off, without having to change EQ?

 

-c. Tonal balance part deux - can you set the tonewheel taper for different types of organs (scooped, brash, midrangey, etc.?) Does it scream when you gliss up to high C and mash on fast leslie?

 

-d. Key click - does it feel integral to the sound, or is it a burst of fake sounding unrelated noise tacked on? Can you smear the click across many milliseconds or is it a fixed length short attack? Is there a random element to maintain the ear's interest? How about release click?

 

-e. Chorus vibrato - can it shimmer as well as throb? Is the intensity and mix adjustable? How is the C1, C2, and C3 balance - can you adjust C3 to be a gentle late 50's shimmer without losing C1 on 888000000?

 

-f. Percussion - woody or plinky? Does it balance at the top and bottom ends of the keyboard? Is the 9th drawbar cutout authentic, not, or settable? Bonus points if you can control the volume dropoff level in perc. Normal mode.

 

-g. Overdrive - warm and tubey, or harsh and digital? How far towards Jon Lord territory can you go before it starts sounding nasty?

 

-h. Leslie sim - how successful is the illusion of moving air? Are the adjustments on speed and ramp times sufficient to dial your favorite sound? Can the sim go from close miced choppy Gregg Rolie to a smooth ambient room miced sound? Is there a sense of the wooden cabinet? Bonus points for multiple leslie or Hammond tone cabinet models.

 

-i. Leslie sim part deux - does the stereo image convince you of rotating horns? Does it collapse into mono convincingly, or is there a dedicated mono mode? How effective is it then?

 

-j. The "X" factor - how much did it all integrate into a harmonious whole that succeeds in making you forget you are playing a clone?

[b3halt]

They really should have a B3, C3, or A100 w/ Leslie as a reference. Clones should be connected to the same amp with a mixer. They also should use the internal sim on each clones because anything through the real Leslie sounds great. If they really want to compare each clone, they shouldn't use the Ventilator because it's not fair in my opinion.

 

I compared the XK-3c, the SK-1, the C1, the C2, and the Mojo with the A-102 w/145 a couple of weeks ago. The XK-3c sounds better than the SK1/2, and of course, the C2 sounds better than the C1 in my opinion. I like using the Mojo lately.

 

By the way, they also should think about playability and portability as well. I was interested in the KeyB, but it was heavy for me to carry around, so I didn't get curious about it after all...

 

[Mitch Towne]

At this point, Stephen is probably saying, "Well, screw this. I'll just go review the latest version of Ableton."

 

Seriously, though...what are we hoping to learn from this? The only true shootout that would please everyone is if we all were there and each had a day in that room to screw around...and THEN had the same keyboards on a stage with a band.

 

The opinions of others are always so subjective. You will never move Jim Alfredson off of his opinion that he likes the XK3 chorus and that it sounds like his 70's era B3, nor will you move me off of my opinion that I can't stand it. The important thing to note is that both of our opinions are based on actual gigging time (in this case, years for both of us) with the instrument. He has had his for years and I had mine for years and we both landed on opposite sides of the fence, and both of us are experienced players who own and play real tonewheel organs. If there was a definitive "right" answer, we'd have probably found it. But there isn't.

 

When it comes to the shootout, if you compare raw tones of the organs, you are going to have to compare the Mojo numerous times because it has 20 different tonewheel sets, many of which have vastly different characters. Add that into Mate Stubb's list and you are talking less of a "shootout" and more of a "extended ground war." It will take days!

 

Hammond Dave's prediction of the final sentence is dead on. That's not a slam on Fortner or the group assembled to test the instruments. It's because that is exactly where we're at these days: a world full of amazing options that only a few picky bastards (myself at the top of the list) are going to be able to differentiate between!

 

 

[mate stubb]

The reason that Keyboard doesn't do a clonewheel shootout very often is that it is by nature a lot of work.

 

Stephen knows this, as he has been around for others. That's why it's important, since it gets done so infrequently, that it gets done focussed on the relevant things as much as possible.

 

Hence my (and others') insistence that the scope is limited to real clones.

[Adan]

Y'all are raining on our parade before the band even strikes up.

 

I seem to recall from previous videos that there's a Hammond and Leslie residing in the Keyboard Mag corporate complex. If it's any use, I have a nice 60's B3 and 122 in my rehearsal room in SF.

[AnotherScott]

For me, there are two ways to evaluate Hammond clones:

- all with internal leslie speaker

- all connected to the same vintage Leslie

I don't care so much about hearing them all through a real Leslie. If I set up a real Leslie in my studio, I'll probably get a real tonewheel organ to mate it with. If I'm gigging with a lightweight clone, I'm not bringing a Leslie. I know some do, I just think it's a very small percentage of users.

 

I'd like to have them compared all through their own simulators (including in mono), and then to level the playing fields apart from their Leslie sims as well as to see whether they can easily be improved, also all through a Ventilator, since everyone seems to agree that's the best external sim, and more of us are likely to consider traveling with a Vent to get that extra bit of realism than would consider traveling with a real Leslie.

[AnotherScott]

-f. Percussion - woody or plinky? Does it balance at the top and bottom ends of the keyboard? Is the 9th drawbar cutout authentic, not, or settable? Bonus points if you can control the volume dropoff level in perc. Normal mode.

 

-g. Overdrive - warm and tubey, or harsh and digital? How far towards Jon Lord territory can you go before it starts sounding nasty?

Yeah, percussion and overdrive are huge differences that I don't think were addressed last time. Percussion woodiness and overdrive grind are definitely places these differ.

 

This remind be that I remember once playing something where the "overdrive" actually appeared to do nothing to the sound itself, it seemed to be "overlaying" an additional separate layer of fuzz on top of the existing sound!

[kanker.]

The reason that Keyboard doesn't do a clonewheel shootout very often is that it is by nature a lot of work.

 

Stephen knows this, as he has been around for others. That's why it's important, since it gets done so infrequently, that it gets done focussed on the relevant things as much as possible.

 

Hence my (and others') insistence that the scope is limited to real clones.

What y'all forget is that you're a very, very small subset of the keyboard and Keyboard market, which is why expanding it makes more sense for the keyboard and Keyboard market. Writing a shootout for you , Jim, Tony, and one or two other guys who already know what they like in the clones on the market is kinda pointless, doncha think?

 

And just what exactly qualifies as a 'real clone'?

[kanker.]

I should add that, IMO, your handmade beauty, mate-stubb, should be given a bit of coverage in this shootout too....

[mate stubb]

I should add that, IMO, your handmade beauty, mate-stubb, should be given a bit of coverage in this shootout too....

 

I sent a message to Stephen awhile back offering it up for rig o the month, but never heard back.

[Joe Muscara]

Taking a lot of the good ideas mentioned, here's my personal prescription for a useful and successful shootout:

Great post, Moe! And the ones that followed. I hope Stephen finds these useful and not overwhelming like Mitch joked.

 

 

[mate stubb]

Writing a shootout for you , Jim, Tony, and one or two other guys who already know what they like in the clones on the market is kinda pointless, doncha think?

 

Not at all. I have owned and extensively tested real tonewheel organs, Mojo, VB-3 1.4, my ancient Stage Classic, an original analog CX-3 and a VK-1000. I played 1 gig on an XK-3. I have played many Roland clones, and the digital CX-3.

 

Right now, Mojo and VB-3 float my boat. But my experience with KeyB, Diversi, Numa, Ventilator, and the newer Nords and Hammonds is all second hand thru audio or video clips. It is unlikely that I will ever hear them all in the same room, and I am an eternal seeker of knowledge about them!

[Stephen Fortner]

My Mojo review unit arrived this week and I just finished shooting an unboxing video for Keyboard. Gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the sound so far.

 

I also have the Nord C2D showing up, hopefully just after Memorial Day. Planning on setting these up alongside the Studiologic Numa Organ, Hammond SK1 and my XK-3C system, and doing some serious comparing. If you're in the SF Bay area and would like to come check it out, PM me or email me at the mag at sfortner@musicplayer.com.

 

Oh, and mate_stubb, just emailed ya!

[tompass]

Stephen-Can't wait for results. All great boards for sure.

[AnotherScott]

My Mojo review unit arrived this week and I just finished shooting an unboxing video for Keyboard. Gotta say I'm pretty impressed with the sound so far.

 

I also have the Nord C2D showing up, hopefully just after Memorial Day. Planning on setting these up alongside the Studiologic Numa Organ, Hammond SK1 and my XK-3C system, and doing some serious comparing.

The Roland Atelier Combo AT-350C gets no respect! Okay, maybe deservedly so. But I'd really like to see something from KeyB compared, too.

[Tobias Åslund]

Well, at least the Numa has the KeyB engine

[AnotherScott]

Well, at least the Numa has the KeyB engine

Yes, but I seem to remember that you can load more/different "models" into the KeyB than you can into the Numa...?

 

Of course, you can load a whole bunch of models into the Mojo, just evaluating all of those is probably a full day's job.

 

...which I guess means Stephen should have asked for two Mojos, so he could directly compare one of its sounds to another! Maybe someone could lend him an EXP module he could trigger to accomplish the same thing... it wouldn't cost much to ship back and forth...