The "Old" Roland piano sound vs the "Current day"

[The Piano Man]

To me, Roland - more than any other manufacturer - has a piano sound that has changed considerably.

 

Whilst others have evolved their sound, Roland has changed the character of theirs considerably, in my opinion.

 

When I listen to Roland models such as the RD600 and others of its time, it sounds so different to the present day RD2000 etc.

 

I suppose the short answer is that the old 'JV/XV' sound was PCM whilst all the current stuff is 'Superbatural part modelled'.

 

However, to me the character of the sound is so different. I, personally, like the older sound. It is precise, it cuts through the mix and it is very playable.

 

The newer sound, whilst perhaps more 'realistic' to the listener, is not anywhere near as good to the player.

 

The other thing about the older sound is that you can hook it up in mono to something faintly dreadful, such as a Roland KC, and it works okay for gigging purposes.

 

In summary, I hope that Zen Core or something else will provide the option of loading these legacy sounds into the modern boards.

[aellison62]

Roland's Fantom, RD88, and Jupiter X all offer the ability to load older Roland PCM libraries, among them two or three complete sets of acoustic pianos. Those sounds haven't gone away. You just have to put them into thier newer keyboards.

[The Piano Man]

Roland's Fantom, RD88, and Jupiter X all offer the ability to load older Roland PCM libraries, among them two or three complete sets of acoustic pianos. Those sounds haven't gone away. You just have to put them into thier newer keyboards.

 

Thanks for this. I believe it is just the SRX02 and SRX11 that is available. These boards include programs such as Premier Grand, Dynamic Grand and Superb Grand. These are different from the pianos from the VE-RD expansion board for the A90 which is, essentially where piano sounds were chosen for RD600, RD100, RD150, FP3, FP5 etc etc.

[ElmerJFudd]

Old Roland pianos to me means the JV or SR-JV PCM piano patches on instruments the U-220, JV-1010 and their keyboard equivalents. But to others it might mean P-330 or MKS-20.

[mate stubb]

Old Roland to me means MKS-20 and its Structured Adaptive siblings. Modelling technology goodness from way back in the 80s.

 

The Piano 3 sound was meant to be a CP-70 electric grand imitation, but gained its own fame. All of the rock mix cutting ability and friendliness to FX of the original but without the tubby bass.

[Konnector]

I haven't seriously tried any of the more current Roland synths and DP's for "real" piano tones. (I have an ES-920 and a real piano for that.)

I do have an FA-07 (and some older Roland gear) and find the FA Supernatural piano sounds are pretty much unusable on their own. It sounds to me like they cut some of the initial attack off giving it a very "pointy" sound. It doesn't sound natural at all, although it would probably cut through in a dense mix.

[BbAltered]

So I bought an RD-2000 last spring. The sound set includes AP tones both modern and "vintage" - including older JV/JX APs, and APs from the RD-600, as well as new APs from the RD-700SX/NX, and physically modeled APs. I am frankly overwhelmed with all the AP choices available, but I tend to favor the more modern APs because they sound less artificial than the vintage APs (to me).

 

I am enjoying hearing the sampled and modeled APs all coming from the same sound source played on the same keyboard. Whether or not one likes or dislikes how Roland samples and models their APs, the RD-2000 gives one the opportunity to directly compare sampled and modeled APs on the same keyboard running thru the same sound system. The sampled and modeled APs definitely sound and play differently to me, but I am having a hard time deciding if one is "better" than the other.

[Charleston]

This vid just came out today. Which one is this?

 

[video:youtube]

[Delaware Dave]

Still like the V-Piano, but who could afford it and the weight of that instrument actually exceeded my Gem Equinox 88, which is a beast.

[ElmerJFudd]

They make the V- Piano in a grand piano form factor as well. It"s not mobile. Ha

[dickiefunk]

I used to use the Roland RD300gx board and personally much prefer the piano sound in this to the current RD88! From my understanding the older RD"s used to use samples whilst the newer RD"s use modelled sounds?

 

I"m not a fan of modelled acoustic piano sounds generally. I have Pianoteq Pro and whilst there are aspects I really like about it, the actual tone still sound suite plasticky compared to some of the best sample libraries!?

[allan_evett]

I've had a rather unplanned opportunity to explore this Roland piano history. For the past few years, a Stage 3 has been my go-to stage piano/all-purpose keyboard; and often it's been the only keyboard on the gig. I've been able to dial in a few piano tones that fit well - using various samples and EQ/FX scenarios. The results bear a resemblance to some favorite Yamaha and Roland piano programs - similar to Roland SN or Yamaha AWM2. However, a few weeks ago my Stage 3 developed a few key-contact problems and is now in the shop; and it appears that I'll be covering a few November bar gigs with my Fantom 7 as the main axe. This band covers several non-danceable, concert-rock songs (think TOTO, Journey, Styx...), so my YC88 will definitely not cut it as the main keyboard - and I'd like to keep the rig compact, as bowling alley bar stages can be kinda tight.

 

The Fantom is truly a history-of-Roland piece; even without exact component duplication in some cases, its tech covers 40+ years of sound amazingly well and the pianos are well-represented. For a recent, different band gig I switched between a few Scenes that used V-Piano and SN Tones. The V-Piano Tones worked well for a couple 'open', ballad-type parts, but tended to get lost in the mix otherwise (even with EQ and FX tweaks). The SN pianos worked much better in an overall band mix, though there were a few songs where the presence I sought was still lacking. So I dug back into the Fantom's history a bit and tried a couple of pianos from the JV/XV series years, plus some RD-1000 and Electric Grand Tones. That made the Journey and Styx Scenes really come to life - especially with dual DP layering possibilities (similar to what I've also discovered on the YC). And sometimes those 'older' pianos work better as a single tone than the 'latest and greatest' mega-memory ones. I often miss the bright Natural S-700 piano in my long gone 2006 S90-ES; same with the FP-4 I had in 2010.

[Stokely]

For me it's definitely the MKS-20. I wasn't a huge fan but where else were you going to get a decent piano sound, without an actual piano, in a studio in the late 80s? I guess samplers were around but I don't recall having anything decent on the Akai sampler we had, or a Synclavier (with big ol winchester tapes!) I used in a different place.

 

I remember someone bringing in a Korg M1 and everyone was ooh-ing and ahh-ing over the sounds, mainly I think because it actually had its own effects.

 

My main keyboard back then was a Roland JX-10 so needless to say I didn't have much in the way of piano or organ

 

The only recent Roland I've owned was a VR-700 and I disliked the piano in that quite a bit. Sounded pretty "honky" like an out of tune upright.

[David Emm]

My first experience with this world was the RD-1000 proper, so I've enjoyed its odd little twists for years. I had a P-330 for the length of a sneeze and loved it. WTH did I do, that its gone, instead of still in my rack? Bad move, whatever it was. Duh!

 

Piano is ultra-subjective, probably a bit moreso than Hammonds and you know how that can vary. I've lived with lesser/workstation pianos for way too long, but the idea of a streaming grand was too daunting for me. Pianoteq is pretty much my grail, as a result. All PM instruments sound a bit "too clean" if you want to lean on that point, but most of the acoustics I've played sounded "too fuzzy," meaning not at all ideally maintained. I'm well pleased.

 

Roland's best gift is simply making their whole historical range available with a modicum of digging. Just like synths, the things that live in Banks B and C often contain colorful variations that can be effected nicely from a different angle. The P-330 and my Boss pedals had an unhealthy relationship that was enjoyed by all.

[Reezekeys]

Context is everything. The style of music, the instrumentation, mix, etc. And of course there's the old adage "it's the artist not the brush" which I've expounded on here before. It's surprising how even an older sound with outdated or simple sampling tech can sound ok, even to ears used to the latest advancements.

 

features an older Roland piano, fairly up front in the mix. Anyone care to guess which one? (I'm fine with nobody caring, just curious to see if knowing that a sampled piano is "old" might affect one's perception of it's quality, or whether it works in that context.)

 

My first Roland piano was an MKS-20. My first Roland sampled acoustic piano was the stock "Nice Piano" which was in my XP50, and I assume all the original JV-series synths. Hint: the example above is not the Nice Piano!

[Mike Warren]

If we're talking about "old" Roland pianos, my first Roland piano was a HP70. Next, I had a Yamaha FP80 and then a RD1000. Later, when I got a JV90, I used it's piano sounds from the RD1000.

[16251]

I owned MSK20, FP8, FP7, FP4. Today when I hear their latest modeled sounds I think of saying, "I don't even know you anymore!."

 

I have fond memories of the MKS20 and FP8. In that period of time I really liked technology. I would probably feel different if I played them today. I wonder if the current modeling uses any of these technologies?

 

the FP7 and FP4, I believe had the same sounds. I first bought the FP7, sight unseen. I remember being so tired of the Yamahas P80, then I got the P90 and the Roland was promoting samples on every note. I gigged a lot with the FP7 and it wasn't until I gave up general business/dance gigs that I discovered the FP4

 

After that Roland began "super natural," and I started to care less about Roland. BTW, I skipped the whole RD lines after deciding I wanted internal speakers.

[Al Quinn]

I had an MKS-20 for several years and enjoyed playing it. The finger to ear connection was very good. Initially I used it with a DX7 and then a JV90. Good memories. Although I"ve tried, I haven"t been able to connect with the more recent Roland pianos. They don"t inspire me.

 

Reezekeys, beautiful playing on the YouTube recording you shared! I didn"t want it to end.

[Reezekeys]

Aw thanks guys! That CD was done a long time ago (over 15 years). I should have been playing a real piano, but logistics and Tony's budget dictated otherwise. The piano was the Roland "Session", an 8 megabyte expansion JV/XP board I put in my XP50. Two velocity layers. No release samples, no sympathetic resonance, but it was true stereo (it may have been the first high quality - for its time - stereo sampled acoustic piano you could put into a portable keyboard to play on a gig). This was my main gigging piano, through two Mackie SRM450s, for almost ten years. The funny thing is that it was such a step up in realism from my previous piano (MKS20) that I wasn't bothered by its shortcomings at all. It lives on in my JV1010 half-rack module that I carry to my gigs in case my computer goes down. I still have the MKS20 too, though it hasn't been turned on in a long time.

[Doerfler]

Rob, wonderful playing and a nice arrangement of Nefertiti. And they can't even give you credit ?

 

[Legatoboy]

I bemoaned this many many years ago on the Forum after having and gigging an RD600 which was not a bad axe, and going to the RD700 and SRX, even the modules!

I could not EQ Roland stage pianos for stage use after that for the life of me...home and recording use it was better but after much anguish and $... I gave up on the Roland piano sound for live use at that juncture.

[Adam Burgess]

Aw thanks guys! That CD was done a long time ago (over 15 years). I should have been playing a real piano, but logistics and Tony's budget dictated otherwise. The piano was the Roland "Session", an 8 megabyte expansion JV/XP board I put in my XP50. Two velocity layers. No release samples, no sympathetic resonance, but it was true stereo (it may have been the first high quality - for its time - stereo sampled acoustic piano you could put into a portable keyboard to play on a gig). This was my main gigging piano, through two Mackie SRM450s, for almost ten years. The funny thing is that it was such a step up in realism from my previous piano (MKS20) that I wasn't bothered by its shortcomings at all. It lives on in my JV1010 half-rack module that I carry to my gigs in case my computer goes down. I still have the MKS20 too, though it hasn't been turned on in a long time.

 

Yup! Used the same in my XP50 for years and years. Looking back - it might have been a bit 'attacky' and 'plonky', but definitely usable in a band! It could cut, for sure!

[Reezekeys]

Rob, wonderful playing and a nice arrangement of Nefertiti. And they can't even give you credit ?

 

Looks like that particular youtube was generated by CD Baby, not uploaded directly by Tony. I'm credited on the back of the CD sleeve (and the tune is Nardis, not Nefertiti)! None of those "Provided to YouTube by CDBaby" tracks have any info listed, and they don't allow comments either. I played on another recording for Tony in 2018 where he put my name on the front of the CD! By then I was using Native Instruments pianos so off-topic here, except to say that after hearing my NI "New York" piano, Tony asked if I could instead use the same piano I had on Nardis! (We wound up with the NI "Grandeur" for this more recent CD).

[drawback]

I thought your piano sound on Nardis was very much in keeping with hundreds of other acoustic pianos featured on jazz recordings throughout the years â bearing in mind the variations in production, micing, instrument quality and even player techniques. At least it was in tune (an anomaly)! The only thing to my mind that differentiated from the real thing was perhaps the lack of timbre dynamics â but in a mix, not so obvious. Otherwise, that piano is as good as any/many. And nice playing, Rob!

[Reezekeys]

Of course I figured that, Dave - you're the last person I would expect to confuse those two songs!

[Reezekeys]

I thought your piano sound on Nardis was very much in keeping with hundreds of other acoustic pianos featured on jazz recordings throughout the years â bearing in mind the variations in production, micing, instrument quality and even player techniques. At least it was in tune (an anomaly)! The only thing to my mind that differentiated from the real thing was perhaps the lack of timbre dynamics â but in a mix, not so obvious. Otherwise, that piano is as good as any/many. And nice playing, Rob!

Thanks, I really appreciate those kind words. I do find it a little surprising that a sound as dated as that doesn't stick out as such. Maybe it's just how we listen - as long as the sounds meet a "minimum" set of characteristics, and we focus more on the totality of the "group mix", these seemingly major imperfections â at least, the imperfections in piano sampling that have been largely addressed by today's instruments and software â don't annoy us as much as we'd think! And this from a crowd here that spends a lot of time comparing, analysing and opining on the quality of piano samples. Maybe the more simple explanation is that the piano is in a full band mix with percussion and bass taking up a lot of the space - so the warts are just getting covered up better!

[Reezekeys]

I use a Roland A800 Pro controller into an old MacBook Pro. I've been playing 61-key unweighted actions most of my life â borne out of necessity when having to play gigs in New York City. I wanted to be one-trip and I bring two powered speakers for stereo goodness, so that pretty much decided things for me. I'm used to it.

 

I have a Steinway at home but it's old and needs work, so the inspiration factor is not there as much as when I play my NI Grandeur from the Roland - believe it or not. Someday I'm gonna get the Steiny happening! It was a gift from a very dear friend and his sibs when their mom passed away and they sold her house. On my gigs I still play the Native Instruments New York because imo its samples seem "closer" and that works better when I have my speakers a few feet away and behind me. The Grandeur has a sweeter high end (more bell-like sustain) and its middle register is "richer" but it just doesn't feel as good when I'm playing live. At home though, wearing cans, the Grandeur is what I play.

 

As far as digitals I've tried - they're very few. I remember the Kawai I played at Sweetwater (MP11? top of the line, I think - a beast to move, I know that!). Loved it. I recently played a Yamaha P-something and a Roland DP (forget the model) at a local GC and thought the Yam action was a little sluggish compared to the Roland. Or maybe it's just a little heavier and my wimpy hands couldn't hack it!

[Floyd Tatum]

Joining the conversation late as usual. Pianoman, yes Roland has had a pretty diverse range of piano sounds over the years. I've enjoyed some of them a lot - I sat in on a friend's FP4 on a gig recently - it holds up well, both piano and rhodes. Wouldn't mind owning one of those. I use a Yamaha P-115 for the time being, but to be optimistic for once, the digital acousti-clone choices these days from various companies are quite good - so much better than at the beginning. On the other hand, Rhodes and Wurly are still the unsurpassed kings on the electro-mechanical side, I suppose, but again, there are some good clone choices.

 

Let me also chime in and say Reezekeys, that your Nardis recording is very enjoyable, and the sound is convincing and fits well with the electric upright. As a pianist I can recognize a digital, but it almost fools me on a casual listen. It certainly doesn't scream digital or anything. Nice playing.

 

On a side note, I've heard that Nardis spelled backwards = Ben Sidran, supposedly. Well, I think I can put that rumour to bed: At the end of this radio show of Ben interviewing Miles, Ben asks how he came to name the tune Nardis, and Miles can't remember. Miles asks "what does it mean?" and Ben says "I don't know, but it's my last name spelled backwards", and Miles says "you're kidding". I suppose they could both have been being ironic, but it didn't sound like it.

[obxa]

Also have to comment that your playing on Reeze is so darn good, it made me focus on the music rather than the sound of the piano. As always it's the carpenter, not the tools.

 

I actually went straight to your video before I read through the posts. My first thought was the piano sounded a little compressed, but fit the mix for the time recorded. I was more impressed that this was older Roland- and as much I'm usually focused on gear, embarrassed that I thought it was real.

 

I spend half my time in Ministry, and that MKS piano sound is still a big part of contemporary gospel.

[Chris Towns]

Hi,

I have a Roland RD2000 and was initially underwhelmed by the piano tones. I therefore went around purchasing different piano VST's (Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275, N.I.Noire, etc) to use. I did not want to sell the RD2000 as for me it's such a joy to play, I also think along with the dedicated Roland stand it's a nice looking piece of hardware. Fast forward a couple of years and I rarely use the VST's. I have found a set of internal pianos that I really like and have edited them to suit me personally. I don't know if my hearing has 'adapted' to the RD2000 pianos but as far as I am concerned it's a really enjoyable piano to own. I'm not a pro player and it stays in one place permanantly, I used foam acoustic tiles in the room to improve the sound and also spent a considerable time getting the amplification and speakers set up correctly. If your prepared to put the effort in, you get the rewards.