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#2848444 - 04/10/17 09:02 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MalH]
zaphod betamax Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/01/15
Posts: 67
Loc: Sarnia, On
I actually bought my CPS with my MS-20 in mind.
One early experiment I did.
MS20 to channel 1 panned mid, NO EFFECTS
Result: Only Front speakers fire.

Add the Reverb and Strymon Deco effect to sends.

MS-20(a mono signal) now has spatial information on Front and Side.
_________________________
Centre Point Stereo Monitor
10" mini tremor sub

2x Korg MS-20Kit
4x Korg Monotribe
JX-8P, JX-3P w/PG-200
2x Blofeld keyboards
1 Blofeld "mini me" module
1 Studiologic Sledge II
1 Yamaha CS-40m





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KC Island
#2848541 - 04/11/17 08:48 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: zaphod betamax]
PianoMan51 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 810
Loc: SE NC marsh
Originally Posted By: zaphod betamax
I actually bought my CPS with my MS-20 in mind.
One early experiment I did.
MS20 to channel 1 panned mid, NO EFFECTS
Result: Only Front speakers fire.

Add the Reverb and Strymon Deco effect to sends.

MS-20(a mono signal) now has spatial information on Front and Side.


Yes, that's exactly what the Fender versions of Aspen's design do. You input a mono guitar, add stereo effects, and the effects sounds are broadcast into the room.

Let's start at the beginning. (You're asking why should I listen to this guy? In a previous life I was a telecoms engineer and I re-created the SS3 but with higher quality components two years ago. This is no diss on Aspen. It's a brilliant invention and I wish him all the best)

1). Damn it, Google "M/S recording technology" and really learn it. If you open your mind and do some simple arithmetic you can do this in one hour.
2). Don't go on to the next step before you did step 1. Really.
3). Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction. Since an M/S recording is done from a single room position this means that the inverse reproduction system can be done from a single room position. This eliminates so many problems that exist in trying to present a stereo image to an audience.
4). The center channel in an M/S recording is done with an omni mic. This means it captures everything. This is the same as taking a stereo recording and summing the left and right channels into L+R. This is everything. The phrase "common to both L and R signals " is deliberately confusing. It's L+R. And this is what is presented via the front-facing speaker. Technically, L and R signals that are identical and in-phase are boosted 6dB.
5). In M/S recording the second mic is a Figure-8 configuration positioned at 90degrees as close to the Omni mic as possible. To invert this for reproduction, we're going to use a Figure-8 speaker: which is exactly what every standard speaker is when it's not placed in a box. When a Fig-8 mic records, it recognizes sound from both ends of the diaphragm, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Go back to step 1. If you haven't internalized it stop here. Back to our discussion, the Fig-8 mic has processed left and right directed signals, but in opposite phases. The way to state this exactly is that the Fig-8 mic has recorded L-R.
6). So, to invert and reproduce the original signal we are going to take the two stereo input signals (L and R) and subtract one from the other: L-R.
7). We then amplify L-R and drive the second speaker, positioned at 90 degrees w.r.t. the front speaker. Just like the Fig-8 mic that was used in recording. From one side it sends L-R and from the other side it sends that same signal but 180 degrees out of phase which is -(L-R) which is R-L.
8). That's it. This is not an analogy. This is the way it works. L+R to the front, L-R to the left, and R-L to the right. With two speakers and two amps.
9). My personal experience with this is that acoustic piano benefits slightly from this technology. It's like salt. Use to taste.
10). Keyboard sounds with lots of L-R components do really well with this technology. The result is not the same as a Leslie or as Fender Rhodes Stage, but gives a very sensual feeling of the sound filling the room.

Pop quiz on Friday.

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#2848624 - 04/11/17 12:27 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 18754
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction.

I believe that Drew Daniels was (pardon the pun) instrumental as well.

Here's an article on the subject by George Petersen written for Mix magazine back in 1998.

dB
_________________________
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Professional affiliations: Amphion Loudspeakers Cloud Microphones Crumar/GSi elysia GmbH TK Audio Electronic Musician

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#2848632 - 04/11/17 12:56 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2437
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51


Let's start at the beginning. (You're asking why should I listen to this guy? In a previous life I was a telecoms engineer and I re-created the SS3 but with higher quality components two years ago. This is no diss on Aspen. It's a brilliant invention and I wish him all the best)

1). Damn it, Google "M/S recording technology" and really learn it. If you open your mind and do some simple arithmetic you can do this in one hour.
2). Don't go on to the next step before you did step 1. Really.
3). Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction. Since an M/S recording is done from a single room position this means that the inverse reproduction system can be done from a single room position. This eliminates so many problems that exist in trying to present a stereo image to an audience.
4). The center channel in an M/S recording is done with an omni mic. This means it captures everything. This is the same as taking a stereo recording and summing the left and right channels into L+R. This is everything. The phrase "common to both L and R signals " is deliberately confusing. It's L+R. And this is what is presented via the front-facing speaker. Technically, L and R signals that are identical and in-phase are boosted 6dB.
5). In M/S recording the second mic is a Figure-8 configuration positioned at 90degrees as close to the Omni mic as possible. To invert this for reproduction, we're going to use a Figure-8 speaker: which is exactly what every standard speaker is when it's not placed in a box. When a Fig-8 mic records, it recognizes sound from both ends of the diaphragm, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Go back to step 1. If you haven't internalized it stop here. Back to our discussion, the Fig-8 mic has processed left and right directed signals, but in opposite phases. The way to state this exactly is that the Fig-8 mic has recorded L-R.
6). So, to invert and reproduce the original signal we are going to take the two stereo input signals (L and R) and subtract one from the other: L-R.
7). We then amplify L-R and drive the second speaker, positioned at 90 degrees w.r.t. the front speaker. Just like the Fig-8 mic that was used in recording. From one side it sends L-R and from the other side it sends that same signal but 180 degrees out of phase which is -(L-R) which is R-L.
8). That's it. This is not an analogy. This is the way it works. L+R to the front, L-R to the left, and R-L to the right. With two speakers and two amps.
9). My personal experience with this is that acoustic piano benefits slightly from this technology. It's like salt. Use to taste.
10). Keyboard sounds with lots of L-R components do really well with this technology. The result is not the same as a Leslie or as Fender Rhodes Stage, but gives a very sensual feeling of the sound filling the room.

Pop quiz on Friday.


This post should be a sticky.
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#2848670 - 04/11/17 02:45 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
cphollis Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 10/05/13
Posts: 1801
Loc: Massachussets, Florida
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Originally Posted By: zaphod betamax
I actually bought my CPS with my MS-20 in mind.
One early experiment I did.
MS20 to channel 1 panned mid, NO EFFECTS
Result: Only Front speakers fire.

Add the Reverb and Strymon Deco effect to sends.

MS-20(a mono signal) now has spatial information on Front and Side.


Yes, that's exactly what the Fender versions of Aspen's design do. You input a mono guitar, add stereo effects, and the effects sounds are broadcast into the room.

Let's start at the beginning. (You're asking why should I listen to this guy? In a previous life I was a telecoms engineer and I re-created the SS3 but with higher quality components two years ago. This is no diss on Aspen. It's a brilliant invention and I wish him all the best)

1). Damn it, Google "M/S recording technology" and really learn it. If you open your mind and do some simple arithmetic you can do this in one hour.
2). Don't go on to the next step before you did step 1. Really.
3). Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction. Since an M/S recording is done from a single room position this means that the inverse reproduction system can be done from a single room position. This eliminates so many problems that exist in trying to present a stereo image to an audience.
4). The center channel in an M/S recording is done with an omni mic. This means it captures everything. This is the same as taking a stereo recording and summing the left and right channels into L+R. This is everything. The phrase "common to both L and R signals " is deliberately confusing. It's L+R. And this is what is presented via the front-facing speaker. Technically, L and R signals that are identical and in-phase are boosted 6dB.
5). In M/S recording the second mic is a Figure-8 configuration positioned at 90degrees as close to the Omni mic as possible. To invert this for reproduction, we're going to use a Figure-8 speaker: which is exactly what every standard speaker is when it's not placed in a box. When a Fig-8 mic records, it recognizes sound from both ends of the diaphragm, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Go back to step 1. If you haven't internalized it stop here. Back to our discussion, the Fig-8 mic has processed left and right directed signals, but in opposite phases. The way to state this exactly is that the Fig-8 mic has recorded L-R.
6). So, to invert and reproduce the original signal we are going to take the two stereo input signals (L and R) and subtract one from the other: L-R.
7). We then amplify L-R and drive the second speaker, positioned at 90 degrees w.r.t. the front speaker. Just like the Fig-8 mic that was used in recording. From one side it sends L-R and from the other side it sends that same signal but 180 degrees out of phase which is -(L-R) which is R-L.
8). That's it. This is not an analogy. This is the way it works. L+R to the front, L-R to the left, and R-L to the right. With two speakers and two amps.
9). My personal experience with this is that acoustic piano benefits slightly from this technology. It's like salt. Use to taste.
10). Keyboard sounds with lots of L-R components do really well with this technology. The result is not the same as a Leslie or as Fender Rhodes Stage, but gives a very sensual feeling of the sound filling the room.

Pop quiz on Friday.


That's why I love this place. There's always someone with the definitive answer smile
_________________________
Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Keys: Nord Stage 2, Piano 2, Electro 4D
Practice: Yam N3, Bosie 200 Klimt Model
Amps: FA 12acs, RCF TT08as, QSC Ks, SSv3
Stuff: Spider Pro, MG06, etc.

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#2848687 - 04/11/17 03:57 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
midinut Online   content
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 1417
Loc: North Carolina
I have a question for dB, Tim, and Dan. If you use a powered monitor (such as the QSC K8) I assume you also get the added headroom of whatever you plug in - so long as it exceeds the amps already in the SSV3. I guess I'm asking because the only complaint I have about mine is lack of volume in certain situations. I also have a first gen SSV3 (the heavier) and have tried a Behringer B1200 Pro sub with some success, but I always end up wishing I had more headroom. A K8 may solve this dilemma if it works as you guys describe. I also play with mine on its side with the side speaker facing the ground on a guitar amp stand about ten feet from me angled towards me. And I do play in a band where the drummer and guitar player can be too loud. So if I hook up a K8 to the sub out and maybe turn down the bass and treble controls, will the K8 drown out the bloom effect? Or am I going to need to play with the levels of both until I find a "sweet spot"? I will also admit that although I have read this entire thread over its lifespan - and THAT is what led to my purchase - that I have never tried some of the experimenting or "dialing-in" that some here have referred to. I have played with the width control. I seem to remember some early post that recommended putting the volume and width at 2 o'clock and the bass and treble at 12 o'clock for starters and work from there. I always seem to start there and am generally happy with the results (other than the occasional lack of volume). I like mine well enough that I don't feel I need to look at the XL yet. Maybe just a serious talk with the drummer and guitar player, who knows. Anyway, any and all suggestions are welcome. Maybe we can add another page to this tome. lol

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#2848689 - 04/11/17 04:14 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: midinut]
Sam Mullins Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 1267
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
OK...it only took 179 pages to convince me to join the club. Mine arrives on Friday.

One channel on my Motion Sound KP200S went bad (after 14 years of solid service) so I thought I would try something new. It had a built-in mixer so I'm also in the market for a small mixer but I'll probably wait until after I am sure I'm keeping the SpaceStation before ordering one. Considering a Yamaha MG10XU or Soundcraft Signature 12 MTK.

I also have this crazy idea that my duo act might use ONLY the Spacestation for some of our smaller gigs. Would save us hauling PA and two amps. I like the idea of us hearing (more or less) what the audience is hearing and making adjustments on the fly...akin to what bluegrass bands do all the time. I play keys and sing, and my brother alternates between guitar and (non-miced) drums and vocals. All at reasonable "coffee-house" volume. Anyone doing something like this with the SpaceStation?
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#2848692 - 04/11/17 04:19 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: midinut]
Dave Bryce Administrator Offline
KCFFL Champ '14, '16
10k Club

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 18754
Loc: Thousand Oaks,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: midinut
I have a question for dB, Tim, and Dan. If you use a powered monitor (such as the QSC K8) I assume you also get the added headroom of whatever you plug in - so long as it exceeds the amps already in the SSV3.

The two together are a decent amount louder and sonically larger, yes. grin


Quote:
I guess I'm asking because the only complaint I have about mine is lack of volume in certain situations.

I totally hear you...and it does sound as if this will help with that.


Quote:
I also have a first gen SSV3 (the heavier) and have tried a Behringer B1200 Pro sub with some success, but I always end up wishing I had more headroom. A K8 may solve this dilemma if it works as you guys describe. I also play with mine on its side with the side speaker facing the ground on a guitar amp stand about ten feet from me angled towards me. And I do play in a band where the drummer and guitar player can be too loud. So if I hook up a K8 to the sub out and maybe turn down the bass and treble controls, will the K8 drown out the bloom effect?

Not at all.

I'm gigging Friday night and will know more then...but the way I have it set up now, it sounds great.

I'm just standing it up straight, like so:



Quote:
Or am I going to need to play with the levels of both until I find a "sweet spot"?


Where I'm at now is SS volume 12 o'clock, effect level 3 o'clock, both EQ knobs all the way down. K8 volume 3 o'clock, HF set FLAT, LF set DEEP.

YMMV....heck, mine might once I get it on a stage Friday night... idk

dB

_________________________
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rockit ==> ReverbNation SoundCloud <==rawk


Professional affiliations: Amphion Loudspeakers Cloud Microphones Crumar/GSi elysia GmbH TK Audio Electronic Musician

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#2848703 - 04/11/17 05:12 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
JazzPiano88 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 11/16/15
Posts: 175
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Originally Posted By: zaphod betamax
I actually bought my CPS with my MS-20 in mind.
One early experiment I did.
MS20 to channel 1 panned mid, NO EFFECTS
Result: Only Front speakers fire.

Add the Reverb and Strymon Deco effect to sends.

MS-20(a mono signal) now has spatial information on Front and Side.


Yes, that's exactly what the Fender versions of Aspen's design do. You input a mono guitar, add stereo effects, and the effects sounds are broadcast into the room.

Let's start at the beginning. (You're asking why should I listen to this guy? In a previous life I was a telecoms engineer and I re-created the SS3 but with higher quality components two years ago. This is no diss on Aspen. It's a brilliant invention and I wish him all the best)

1). Damn it, Google "M/S recording technology" and really learn it. If you open your mind and do some simple arithmetic you can do this in one hour.
2). Don't go on to the next step before you did step 1. Really.
3). Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction. Since an M/S recording is done from a single room position this means that the inverse reproduction system can be done from a single room position. This eliminates so many problems that exist in trying to present a stereo image to an audience.
4). The center channel in an M/S recording is done with an omni mic. This means it captures everything. This is the same as taking a stereo recording and summing the left and right channels into L+R. This is everything. The phrase "common to both L and R signals " is deliberately confusing. It's L+R. And this is what is presented via the front-facing speaker. Technically, L and R signals that are identical and in-phase are boosted 6dB.
5). In M/S recording the second mic is a Figure-8 configuration positioned at 90degrees as close to the Omni mic as possible. To invert this for reproduction, we're going to use a Figure-8 speaker: which is exactly what every standard speaker is when it's not placed in a box. When a Fig-8 mic records, it recognizes sound from both ends of the diaphragm, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Go back to step 1. If you haven't internalized it stop here. Back to our discussion, the Fig-8 mic has processed left and right directed signals, but in opposite phases. The way to state this exactly is that the Fig-8 mic has recorded L-R.
6). So, to invert and reproduce the original signal we are going to take the two stereo input signals (L and R) and subtract one from the other: L-R.
7). We then amplify L-R and drive the second speaker, positioned at 90 degrees w.r.t. the front speaker. Just like the Fig-8 mic that was used in recording. From one side it sends L-R and from the other side it sends that same signal but 180 degrees out of phase which is -(L-R) which is R-L.
8). That's it. This is not an analogy. This is the way it works. L+R to the front, L-R to the left, and R-L to the right. With two speakers and two amps.
9). My personal experience with this is that acoustic piano benefits slightly from this technology. It's like salt. Use to taste.
10). Keyboard sounds with lots of L-R components do really well with this technology. The result is not the same as a Leslie or as Fender Rhodes Stage, but gives a very sensual feeling of the sound filling the room.

Pop quiz on Friday.


Very nice explanation! I always like to think of the channels in terms of Venn Diagrams.

L+R = (Everything in L) + (Everything in R) = (Everything unique to L) + (Everything unique to R) + (2 * Everything common to L and R)

The 2 * third term is the 6dB boost referred to in PianoMan's point #4.

L-R = (Everything unique to L) + (-1 * Everything Unique to R)

-(L-R) = R-L = (Everything unique to R) + (-1 * Everything Unique to L) PianoMan's item #7

It's pretty interesting to try to listen to the SS3's two channels separately (although difficult since spread doesn't go from 0-100) under varying spread with different inputs:
- Mono (theoretically nothing comes out of L-R speaker)
- Normal Stereo patches (w/ chorus, reverb)
- Hard panned effect like Suitcase Rhodes tremolo (Left Tremolo half cycle results in L out of (L+R) and L out of (L-R) forward side and -L (R-L) out of the backward side.

My favorite sound from the unit is a medium panned suitcase Rhodes tremolo.
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Yamaha C7D | Montage8 | CP300 | CP4
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#2848707 - 04/11/17 05:29 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Sam Mullins]
Raymb1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/07/13
Posts: 319
Loc: Sterling, VA
Here's a 4 piece band playing through an SSV3 at Namm 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nflh0jpjV-I


Edited by Raymb1 (04/11/17 05:29 PM)
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Casio PX5s, XWP1 and CPS SSV3

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#2848741 - 04/11/17 07:49 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Raymb1]
sleepngbear Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 534
Loc: RI
Well I've learned more about how this amp actually works in the last two pages of this thread than in the first 177, particularly the whole basic concept of L+R vs L-R, which, simple as it should be, I was misunderstanding completely until you guys so clearly spelled it out and relayed the fruits of all sorts of experimentations -- even though I own one. Too many of you to thank, so thank you all.


Edited by sleepngbear (04/11/17 07:49 PM)
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#2848747 - 04/11/17 08:54 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
tfort Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/16
Posts: 61
PianoMan51-

I'd be curious to hear which components you used to create your custom M/S powered speaker.

Also, has anyone tried making an M/S amplification system which uses two sealed cabinets for the Side signals, rather than a single speaker mounted on a baffle in an open cabinet?

I also wonder what would make the biggest improvement to the overall sound of the SS3 or any M/S speaker: using a higher quality mid or side driver, or adding an additional mid or side driver.

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#2848750 - 04/11/17 09:11 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Raymb1]
Sam Mullins Offline
Platinum Member

Registered: 08/21/07
Posts: 1267
Loc: Iowa City, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Raymb1
Here's a 4 piece band playing through an SSV3 at Namm 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nflh0jpjV-I

Thanks!
_________________________
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www.stickmanor.com
There's a thin white line between fear and fury - Stickman

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#2848813 - 04/12/17 06:15 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: tfort]
PianoMan51 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 810
Loc: SE NC marsh
Originally Posted By: tfort
PianoMan51-

I'd be curious to hear which components you used to create your custom M/S powered speaker.

Also, has anyone tried making an M/S amplification system which uses two sealed cabinets for the Side signals, rather than a single speaker mounted on a baffle in an open cabinet?

I also wonder what would make the biggest improvement to the overall sound of the SS3 or any M/S speaker: using a higher quality mid or side driver, or adding an additional mid or side driver.


For most of us the L+R signal is easy. But creating the L-R requires a phase inversion of the R signal. When I did this I was using all VSTs running under Plogue Bidule. This gave me the ability to create two separate output channels, L+R and L-R.

The L+R signal when directly into a 10" self-powered Turbosound speaker.

The L-R went into a power amp and then out to an 8" speaker. Not a speaker cabinet, a speaker. Criterion for the speaker was high power handling, high quality mid-range, no coax or whizzer cone for highs, and an open speaker frame to allow the air to move from both sides of the cone. I didn't worry about lows because the open speaker frame naturally attenuates lows no matter what you do, so I didn't even try.

In one of Aspen's posts he had mentioned that his favorite spot for locating the side speaker was directly behind the front speaker. So I bought a "NOS Atlas Soundolier 510-8W Cylindrical Bidirectional Baffle - White Finish" on eBay to hold and protect the speaker, and attached it with a small hook to the back of front speaker.

B3, Rhodes, Wurly all sounded great through this. Suddenly the whole room felt alive with the sound. Piano not so much. It just seemed to difuse the sound. When I play LH bass I will also put a tiny bit of delay on the signal and route a high-pass version of just the delayed signal to the side speaker.

Hope this helps.

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#2848977 - 04/12/17 04:08 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Dave Bryce]
AnotherScott Offline
10k Club

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 10605
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
I'm just standing it up straight, like so:

From earlier in the thread, you might benefit from switching which of the two is on bottom:

Originally Posted By: HAM&EGZ
Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: HAM&EGZ
I tried my K10 on top of the SS and although the MS FX was still there(somewhat) the direct mono sound of the K10 was at ear level
and seemed to overpower the SS.

If I turned down the K10 where it didnt wash out the MS, then there really was no benefit to it.

Putting it on the bottom put the SS at the better H and V spread.

When putting the K10 on the bottom, how did you put the SS above it? i.e. DanL said that the SS wouldn't sit well directly on top of the K10. Did you find a way for that to work, or use a separate stand to lift the SS above the K10, or...?


right it doesn't sit directly. I have a small wooden butlers table that was just the correct height for the SS and width for the K10
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#2849020 - 04/12/17 07:59 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
John Tweed Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 205
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Originally Posted By: tfort
PianoMan51-

I'd be curious to hear which components you used to create your custom M/S powered speaker.
J
Also, has anyone tried making an M/S amplification system which uses two sealed cabinets for the Side signals, rather than a single speaker mounted on a baffle in an open cabinet?

I also wonder what would make the biggest improvement to the overall sound of the SS3 or any M/S speaker: using a higher quality mid or side driver, or adding an additional mid or side driver.


For most of us the L+R signal is easy. But creating the L-R requires a phase inversion of the R signal. When I did this I was using all VSTs running under Plogue Bidule. This gave me the ability to create two separate output channels, L+R and L-R.

...


There was a thread a couple of weeks ago touching on home-made m/s stereo.

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads...tiv#Post2842777

Based on the advice in this post I managed to derive an L-R signal by flipping the positive and negative wires in an XLR balanced cable, to invert the RH signal. This is combined on a powered mixer with two inputs, the left one as per normal and the right one inverted. The L+R signal is combined as usual and sent to another powered speaker and the speakers aligned at 90 degrees.

This does give some "space" to the sound but the problem, as pointed out by other posters in that thread, is that a normal powered speaker only reproduces one half of the signal correctly as there is nothing coming out the back, unlike the situation here with a speaker unencumbered by a box.

But at least I was able to show that it's possible to easily get an L-R signal without resorting to VSTs etc. The speaker mounting is important and not so easy to achieve with standard components.
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#2849032 - 04/12/17 08:51 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: John Tweed]
Griswold Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 49
Loc: Westchester County, NY
Hey John - I'm glad to hear about your experimentation. I wasn't trying to replace or bad mouth the CPS approach when I started that thread. My main intent was to show several easy ways to obtain the L+R, L-R signals with components most people have at hand. My approach did not include the R-L signal, although that is also easily achieved. It does however provide a nice alternative for adding some stereo effect.

The easiest way to sum up (no pun intended) my method is to run L&R into a stereo mixer that has a headphone (or equivalent) output. I then took the Separate L & R outputs from the mixer into Inputs 1&2 of my ELX112P. I set the input levels equal and this provides the mono (L+R) signal.

Then I used a TRS cable to connect the headphone out from the mixer to a separate powered speaker. The TRS cable carries the L channel on the tip and the R channel on the ring of the cable (or vice versa). Any powered speaker will work as long as it has a differential (balanced) input. The subtraction process of the differential input results in the second speaker amplifying the L-R signal.

I used a small Behringer 150w monitor because that's what I had. This is NOT identical to true MS matrixing but definitely adds a nice stereo component to the EV. It is also easy to adjust the level & EQ of the L-R signal. It is also REALLY cool because I could turn down the EV (mono signal) & just listen to the L-R channel. This actually provided some insight when programming sounds as I could hear the isolated signal when applying stereo effects. Of course the output of the second speaker is quiet with a mono signal.

Of course you could then take the linked output from the Behringer, invert the signal and feed another powered speaker if you like. This would result in the R-L signal. Now you're up to 3 speakers but the fun is just beginning.

Anyway I hope this possibly inspires somebody to do some further experimentation.

Larry
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Kurzweil PC3, Kronos 61, UltraNova, Rhodes, Clavinet D6, MiniMoog, GSI Burn, ELX112Ps, SpaceStation, Assorted Weapons

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#2849033 - 04/12/17 08:56 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Griswold]
J. Dan Offline
10k Club

Registered: 07/25/08
Posts: 10803
Loc: St. Louis, MO
you guys sure how to make things unnecessarily difficult.

I learned about this stuff and was doing it as a teenager in the 70's and 80's. It just works.

Not what I need right now for a monitor, but the concept is solid for those who can use it.
_________________________
Dan

Acoustic/Electric stringed instruments ranging from 4 to 230 strings, hammered, picked, fingered, slapped, and plucked. Analog and Digital Electronic instruments, reeds, and throat/mouth.

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#2849046 - 04/12/17 09:52 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: J. Dan]
davedoerfler Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 12/27/12
Posts: 5960
Loc: thin ice
Originally Posted By: J. Dan
you guys sure how to make things unnecessarily difficult.

laugh
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#2849056 - 04/12/17 11:38 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: JazzPiano88]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2437
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88

-(L-R) = R-L = (Everything unique to R) + (-1 * Everything Unique to L) PianoMan's item #7


Where does this step occur with the SS3?
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#2849081 - 04/13/17 05:11 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
slowtraveler Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 368
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88

-(L-R) = R-L = (Everything unique to R) + (-1 * Everything Unique to L) PianoMan's item #7

Where does this step occur with the SS3?

If I understand correctly, R-L is what comes out the "back" of the SS3's open side speaker, which is to say it's simply the 180-degrees-out-of-phase inverse of the L-R signal emitted from the front of that speaker.

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#2849089 - 04/13/17 06:05 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
zaphod betamax Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/01/15
Posts: 67
Loc: Sarnia, On
I am a bit curious in regards to why you replied to my experiments with all the details that you left. I was doing an experiment for my own benefaction, which may or may not have been connected with what you had replied with.

Most of the items you replied with, I was already privy to, and if I am to share my experiments, I was wondering why you replied with such an itemized elucidation?

(p.s. 53 years old, have been a synth owner for almost 40 years)


Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
Originally Posted By: zaphod betamax
I actually bought my CPS with my MS-20 in mind.
One early experiment I did.
MS20 to channel 1 panned mid, NO EFFECTS
Result: Only Front speakers fire.

Add the Reverb and Strymon Deco effect to sends.

MS-20(a mono signal) now has spatial information on Front and Side.


Yes, that's exactly what the Fender versions of Aspen's design do. You input a mono guitar, add stereo effects, and the effects sounds are broadcast into the room.

Let's start at the beginning. (You're asking why should I listen to this guy? In a previous life I was a telecoms engineer and I re-created the SS3 but with higher quality components two years ago. This is no diss on Aspen. It's a brilliant invention and I wish him all the best)

1). !@#$%^&* it, Google "M/S recording technology" and really learn it. If you open your mind and do some simple arithmetic you can do this in one hour.
2). Don't go on to the next step before you did step 1. Really.
3). Aspen's genius is to invert the M/S recording process and use it for reproduction. Since an M/S recording is done from a single room position this means that the inverse reproduction system can be done from a single room position. This eliminates so many problems that exist in trying to present a stereo image to an audience.
4). The center channel in an M/S recording is done with an omni mic. This means it captures everything. This is the same as taking a stereo recording and summing the left and right channels into L+R. This is everything. The phrase "common to both L and R signals " is deliberately confusing. It's L+R. And this is what is presented via the front-facing speaker. Technically, L and R signals that are identical and in-phase are boosted 6dB.
5). In M/S recording the second mic is a Figure-8 configuration positioned at 90degrees as close to the Omni mic as possible. To invert this for reproduction, we're going to use a Figure-8 speaker: which is exactly what every standard speaker is when it's not placed in a box. When a Fig-8 mic records, it recognizes sound from both ends of the diaphragm, but they are 180 degrees out of phase. Go back to step 1. If you haven't internalized it stop here. Back to our discussion, the Fig-8 mic has processed left and right directed signals, but in opposite phases. The way to state this exactly is that the Fig-8 mic has recorded L-R.
6). So, to invert and reproduce the original signal we are going to take the two stereo input signals (L and R) and subtract one from the other: L-R.
7). We then amplify L-R and drive the second speaker, positioned at 90 degrees w.r.t. the front speaker. Just like the Fig-8 mic that was used in recording. From one side it sends L-R and from the other side it sends that same signal but 180 degrees out of phase which is -(L-R) which is R-L.
8). That's it. This is not an analogy. This is the way it works. L+R to the front, L-R to the left, and R-L to the right. With two speakers and two amps.
9). My personal experience with this is that acoustic piano benefits slightly from this technology. It's like salt. Use to taste.
10). Keyboard sounds with lots of L-R components do really well with this technology. The result is not the same as a Leslie or as Fender Rhodes Stage, but gives a very sensual feeling of the sound filling the room.

Pop quiz on Friday.
_________________________
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2x Korg MS-20Kit
4x Korg Monotribe
JX-8P, JX-3P w/PG-200
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1 Blofeld "mini me" module
1 Studiologic Sledge II
1 Yamaha CS-40m





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#2849096 - 04/13/17 06:29 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: zaphod betamax]
Reezekeys Online   content
Platinum Member

Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 1936
Loc: NYC area
Oh you guys with your mixers, soldering irons, headphone jacks, etc.

smile smile


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#2849139 - 04/13/17 08:25 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: slowtraveler]
MathOfInsects Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/04/15
Posts: 2437
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
Originally Posted By: MathOfInsects
Originally Posted By: JazzPiano88

-(L-R) = R-L = (Everything unique to R) + (-1 * Everything Unique to L) PianoMan's item #7

Where does this step occur with the SS3?

If I understand correctly, R-L is what comes out the "back" of the SS3's open side speaker, which is to say it's simply the 180-degrees-out-of-phase inverse of the L-R signal emitted from the front of that speaker.


Thanks. I wondered if that's what it referred to. I don't think it's technically correct as written then. Isolating "everything unique to R" would require different information from that which is coming from the front of that side-firing speaker, no? I agree with the transitive math, I think the explanation might just be slightly off.
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#2849144 - 04/13/17 08:46 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: MathOfInsects]
PianoMan51 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 810
Loc: SE NC marsh
Hey guys. Actually I was only trying to help by adding some clarity to the conversation. Really, just start out with an engineer's description of M/S recording. The term 'unique' is, intentionally or not, misleading, since it has no strict definition. Go back to the beginning, then you will understand what left and right mean. Aspen's words describing this can be great for a non-technical understanding, but if you really want to get it: figure out M/S. It's gloriously simple once you wrap your brain around it.

Did you do your homework? If yes, skip to next step.
If not, go back to the beginning.

Then when you try to understand translating an M/S recording into L and R stereo and then back to M/S speakers, it will make sense and you won't get lost in translation.

Hmm, wasn't that a movie? I loved Scarlett.

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#2849215 - 04/13/17 12:46 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
MotiDave Online   content
Platinum Member

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 1444
Loc: San Diego, CA USA
this thread has fascinated me for over a year now. the intrigue never ends ...
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Local: One Motif XF7, One ELX112P, and ONE KICKASS X-STAND
Fly-ins: MOXF6 and a couple pedals
One MBP i7, MS3, NI Komplete Audio 6, and a dream (now on hold)

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#2849259 - 04/13/17 03:21 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: zaphod betamax]
PianoMan51 Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 02/02/10
Posts: 810
Loc: SE NC marsh
Originally Posted By: zaphod betamax
I am a bit curious in regards to why you replied to my experiments with all the details that you left. I was doing an experiment for my own benefaction, which may or may not have been connected with what you had replied with.

Most of the items you replied with, I was already privy to, and if I am to share my experiments, I was wondering why you replied with such an itemized elucidation?

(p.s. 53 years old, have been a synth owner for almost 40 years)


Oh man, the last thing I wanted to do was to ruin anyone's fun. Yours included. Former EE here. For years I've bit my tongue when reading some of the posts in this thread. All kinds of magic and voodoo must be involved! And bless him, Aspen was the cause of much of that. But I didn't want to effect his business, given his very long passion for bringing us these products. And they are ground breaking for keys.

But over the past year though I've seen more and more people try to jury rig their SS3 into a full range flat response system. Adding a sub. Then adding a quality powered speaker on top. And then you came along as a brother in arms ready to roll your own too, and I started chiming in. And finally one day I had too much time on my hands, put on my professor's hat, and wrote down IMNSHO what's what.

If this seems targeted at you (although it did start as a short response to you) I apologize. Wasn't the case. I look forward to reading how your experiments come along.

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#2849265 - 04/13/17 03:53 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: PianoMan51]
timwat Offline
Quite wealthy...spiritually
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 5244
Loc: Concord,CA,UNITED STATES
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
But over the past year though I've seen more and more people try to jury rig their SS3 into a full range flat response system. Adding a sub. Then adding a quality powered speaker on top.


This caught my eye.

Yes, what I want is a 40 pound amp with the spread of the SS that is FRFR (full range, flat response).

And the journey continues.
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#2849271 - 04/13/17 04:33 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: timwat]
tfort Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/06/16
Posts: 61
Originally Posted By: timwat

Yes, what I want is a 40 pound amp with the spread of the SS that is FRFR (full range, flat response).


The driver technology is already there from what I've read. Probably could be even lighter than current SS3 Lite, as it would involve using stronger, lighter magnets. Only problem would be the cost. Would there be a market for a SpaceStation-style amp if it cost twice as much?

Maybe Keyboard Corner should ask Aspen to start a Kickstarter/Indiegogo crowdfunded campaign to fund development of a high-end SSv4 and find out.

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#2849294 - 04/13/17 07:04 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: timwat]
TimA Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/10/14
Posts: 93
Loc: Nuevo Mejico
Originally Posted By: timwat
Originally Posted By: PianoMan51
But over the past year though I've seen more and more people try to jury rig their SS3 into a full range flat response system. Adding a sub. Then adding a quality powered speaker on top.


This caught my eye.

Yes, what I want is a 40 pound amp with the spread of the SS that is FRFR (full range, flat response).

And the journey continues.


Nailed it!!
_________________________
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