Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Dave Bryce]

Welcome to KC, Aspen!

 

dB

[Al Coda]

Initial report from last night.

 

Thank you !

 

I will try to make some recordings when its back home, all I have is a Tascam pocket recorder, although it does 44.1 wave and stereo.

 

Perfect, that would be great !

 

A.C.

[Aspen]

Thank you David, it's great to be back among friends, like you. The last year has been a struggle, as you know, but I think we are on the right path now!

[Aspen]

Hallo mine lieber Herren Coda! my apologies for (my German) and the confusion on the spec sheet, you make very good points of course. But I DO know what a TRS jack is, and realize it could be either stereo OR balanced...which is why I did NOT use the TRS nomenclature! Of course our input jacks are neither! But I agree that I could have been more descriptive so as to avoid all confusion! Alas, I am hopelessly blunt sided American, as my beautiful German wife continually reminds me :>)

That said, the design decisions behind my simple 2x (mono) 1/4" Left/Right input jacks were driven by the reality that there are so many small format 4-8 channel mixers out there selling for "peanuts" (w/ stereo FX, and balanced inputs and outputs) that it would not be cost effective for little old me to incorporate all these features in my CPS stereo powered monitor. My goal was to deliver "The One Thing" that nothing else can; stereo everywhere, and keep the price within reach of working musicians. We have a philosophy over here called the KISS principle; Keep It Simple Stupid. That's me.

Regarding your SSV3 sub out question; it's taken from the FRONT signal (L+R, mono compatible) and it is full range. My very first Spacestation was even smaller (2x4o watts) and had a switched High pass on the SUB jack that limited the SS range starting from 100HZ when activated by adding a sub. It still delivered a full range signal derived from the L+R sum/diff network as it is today. We felt then, and now, that a full range mono compatible signal would offer more options than a frequency limited sub output. Again this can lead to some confusion as we still label it "sub" output because 1) we think that is the most useful (and highly recommended) option that allows the SSV3 to actually hang w/ the "big boys", and 2) most subs have a FR limiting range control anyway. If you choose to use a normal bass amp as your subm I'd recommend cranking the Treble and Mids OFF so it only functions from 150HZ down.

FYI, we have made MUCH larger custom higher powered CPS systems in past, converting 2x800 watt QSC amps driving SFX K5 cabs loaded with McCauley 15" coax drivers, like the one we made for Ray Manzarek's (rip) touring system with the 20th Century DOORS. That system kicked ass on Robbie's dual stacks and even overpowered the drummer...ha!...but the average working musician just can't afford a $3K+ rig, much less the cartage fees, so I lost interest in those,

Regarding V.3 sales to Europe, I have tried to find a retail partner like Sweetwater over there that will keep the price in reach of the common musician. It is complicated selling in Europe and usually several levels of distributor and retailer "profits", on top of importation and VAT just puts the price nearly double the USA street price. Toman flat turned me down, they are no "pioneer" and frankly didn't "get it". Seems they have just become a large box internet store. I am still looking for the right sized direct retail partner over there..any suggestions?. But meanwhile, I have to focus on filling the demand over here...which is very encouraging. So maybe by MESSE 2015 I can offer you that option. Meantime, I have just sold a 230v converted V.3 system an end user in Germany for $550, which is a 10% discount to offset the average $125 in USPS freight charges and the duty + VAT he pays on his end. FYI, I designed the V.3 to be compatible for the Euro market...so every V.3 has a 115/230v xfmr that can be easily rewired. Additionally, we have made the V.3 CE, RHOS and WEE compliant, and those symbols are printed on the shipping box.

[Analogaddict]

Welcome, and thanks for listening..! I hope I'll see your products in Europe soon, the Space Station looks perfect for most gigs I do..!

 

Edit: oops, didn't see your post. It's a shame Thomann turned you down. The other big retailer is musicstore.com, but they're also more focused on bread-and-butter stuff. Ep-service import a lot of interesting stuff, including the Vintage Vibe pianos. They may be a candidate..!

[HAMEGZ]

I just returned from the second gig.

 

A different venue, different keys, very different results.

The space had a wall in back of us, and a "roof" of sorts about 7 feet above our heads, the SS was about 2 feet to my right behind me.

 

SK2 and MOXF6 into the Samson SM10.

 

NO overload issues, Very loud for me, very clean, I heard my keys and so did the band, After the gig , they were raving about it, said it was clean and they could hear me playing for the first time in a while,

My pianos, horns strings had a presense,the SK2 rotary didnt seem to "swim, BUT I didnt have time to look at my pan routing,

I had programmed all my patches for mono hard left.

 

Bottom line, it is a keeper

[Analogaddict]

I just returned from the second gig. [...]

Bottom line, it is a keeper

 

Thumbsup!!! Now, where to find one..? ;-)

[HAMEGZ]

I just returned from the second gig. [...]

Bottom line, it is a keeper

 

Thumbsup!!! Now, where to find one..? ;-)

 

Well at this time only from Aspen himself, or from Sweetwater.

I dont know about the cost of shipping outside the US, but it seems with your VATS and overseas rates it would be costly.

 

I hope this becomes a quandary for Aspen, in the sense this product takes off for him and he can enter into some kind of agreement with a European distributor.

[M_G]

 

Hi folks,

 

seems that the "one in Germany" is ME..

;-))

 

I will report back when I got the unit...

I am very interested in that kind of speaker design

so I took the risk and the costs to bring that

unique amp overseas.....

 

cheers

mg

 

[Analogaddict]

Looking forward to that, MG..!

[ashevillecabbie]

There seems to be quite a lot of interest in these units. Count me among those interested.

 

It seems to me that Fender missed an opportunity to gain a place as the world's foremost keyboard amp maker. Their SFX 200 got great reviews, had DSP with 8 total inputs (3 stereo and 2 mono including a mic input), and was bigger and meaner looking then many guitar amps--plus, it had the Fender logo on it! In my opinion it should have been a raging success. But maybe the world just wasn't ready for it.

 

There seems to be a growing global readiness for the concept of such an amp now, however. So best of luck to you, Mr. Pittman! And much respect to you for you perseverance.

 

These days one can easily obtain a little mixer with DSP and multiple inputs, so your current design looks pretty cost effective.

[Al Coda]

Hallo mine lieber Herren Coda!

 

 

my apologies for (my German) and the confusion on the spec sheet, you make very good points of course. But I DO know what a TRS jack is, and realize it could be either stereo OR balanced...which is why I did NOT use the TRS nomenclature!

 

There´s no explanation necessary at that point, I just only described why your specs were irritating to ME,- and before I plan ordering something unseen over the atlantic, I better ask twice.

 

2x (mono) 1/4" Left/Right input jacks ...

 

your SSV3 sub out question; it's taken from the FRONT signal (L+R, mono compatible) and it is full range.

 

Thank you, these are 2 out of 3 technical informations I needed.

 

We felt then, and now, that a full range mono compatible signal would offer more options than a frequency limited sub output.

 

And that´s the 3rd one ! Thx !

 

Regarding V.3 sales to Europe ... So maybe by MESSE 2015 I can offer you that option.

Meantime, I have just sold a 230v converted V.3 system an end user in Germany for $550, which is a 10% discount to offset the average $125 in USPS freight charges and the duty + VAT he pays on his end. FYI, I designed the V.3 to be compatible for the Euro market...so every V.3 has a 115/230v xfmr that can be easily rewired. Additionally, we have made the V.3 CE, RHOS and WEE compliant, and those symbols are printed on the shipping box.

 

Thank you, good info and good to know you ship to germany.

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

What i would like to see in the future is a version that is a split into two units, the speaker cabinet and a same-footprint amplifier head that would sit directly above. I suppose that what makes that awkward is that you would need to have four connections to mate the various amps of the head to the various speakers in the cabinet. But for ease of transport, it would be great to reduce the 39 lb box to a pair of boxes that were each under, say, 25 lbs. If that could be offered at, say, a $100 premium over the one-piece version, I think there would be a market for that.

 

the design decisions behind my simple 2x (mono) 1/4" Left/Right input jacks were driven by the reality that there are so many small format 4-8 channel mixers out there selling for "peanuts" (w/ stereo FX, and balanced inputs and outputs) that it would not be cost effective for little old me to incorporate all these features in my CPS stereo powered monitor.

I was thinking that the two-piece version could be sold at an additional premium if it has some basic mixing facilities on the top, but if that just doesn't make sense for you, it would be okay if there were space on top to do something like velcro on a small mixer (like the Behringer 502 or Yamaha MG06).

[Al Coda]

Hi folks,

 

seems that the "one in Germany" is ME..

;-))

 

I will report back when I got the unit...

I am very interested in that kind of speaker design

so I took the risk and the costs to bring that

unique amp overseas.....

 

cheers

mg

 

That´s too cool man !

Where are you located in germany ?

Since we now know what the shipping costs are and VAT is 19% anyway, I´d be interested in what you paid for customs once it is arrived at your door.

 

And maybe, you find time demoing HX3 thru the CPS-SSV3

 

A.C.

[HAMEGZ]

AFA Scotts wish list for a two piece unit, I can see trying to cut the weight, but it is nice to grab one unit(albeit 39 lbs, but I have a Rock N Roll Dolly) and one less piece of equipment to wire up

 

BTW, the SS fits perfectly in a QSC K10 bag!

 

One thing I did find now playing stereo, some EP tremolo and panning patches are really exaggerated and need tweaking as in reducing the depth and rate a bit.

 

I know AC wants some recordings but they may not be the best to judge, let me explain.

 

The two gigs I did this weekend were two very different spaces. The first bar we were basically in the middle of the space with a 5 foot counter behind us, but an open area behind that, and 10 foot ceilings.

 

The second was the "enclosed" stage with low faux roof and a wall behind us.We were in tighter, also.

 

I had a much better experience from the second venue. I could hear much better, no clipping from cranking up(although different boards, so maybe there's an issue there) and the FX was much more pronounced .

 

I will have a larger stage club coming up, but still we will be against two walls in a corner.I am thinking the SS will work best in some confined spacing. I don't have any outdoor gigs, and although it will probably work fine as a monitor for ourselves, the fx may get lost outdoors on stage.

 

More tests and comments to follow.

 

THANK YOU, Aspen.

[Al Coda]

I know AC wants some recordings but they may not be the best to judge, let me explain.

 

Well, no demands.

I hoped, when you have time and are in the mood, you´d do that @home, maybe in a week or 2.

When it doesn´t happen, no biggie.

I simply found it interesting using the ARTIS which offers a lot of the PC3 sounds we more or less all know.

 

I enjoy reading your reports though !

 

thx

 

A.C.

 

 

[SK]

I'm on the verge of ordering it, but need more impressions on the effectiveness of an acoustic piano patch. Since it's a keyboard amp, I'd think a piano sound must have been factored.

 

So far in the thread, there's been one mention of an AP patch sounding "thin", which was remedied by turning the pan slightly to the left (makes sense, as it would boost the lower end of the keyboard.)

 

The demo with the Privia was inconclusive for me. The volume was loud and the effects pronounced, but the core piano sound itself wasn't particularly clear. Of course, all DP brands have their own sound, along with everyone's subjective opinions. But the issue for me is simply the quality of the signal (or the fidelity) before effects are added. Is it a clear, full range sound, like a true, colorless, reference quality... or not? If I could only try it out, I'd know in a few minutes. And I'm sure a sub will help.

 

More input from anyone on this, please, including from Aspen if possible, as to how to get the best AP sound from this unit - thanks so much in advance.

[HAMEGZ]

I know AC wants some recordings but they may not be the best to judge, let me explain.

 

Well, no demands.

I hoped, when you have time and are in the mood, you´d do that @home, maybe in a week or 2.

When it doesn´t happen, no biggie.

I simply found it interesting using the ARTIS which offers a lot of the PC3 sounds we more or less all know.

 

I enjoy reading your reports though !

 

thx

 

A.C.

 

 

Oh not feeling pressure it is on my bucket list. I just want to make sure the recording and equipment I employ will be impartial and fair to the SS.I dont have a pair of matched mics if I employ my laptop DAW and interface, the Tascam handi recorder does have internal mics thought.

 

I also want to grab/generate some midi files to play the board as I adjust the width and tone/levels in real time while recording, so you hear a change in fx, etc in real time, much like Aspen does on his videos.

 

I do factor in youtube and video demos of gear I am checking out, so I know exactly your desires!

[HAMEGZ]

d.

 

So far in the thread, there's been one mention of an AP patch sounding "thin", which was remedied by turning the pan slightly to the left (makes sense, as it would boost the lower end of the keyboard.) .....

 

 

That was me. I am now going through all my boards with editors(those that have them, the Jupiter 80 is manual, however) and checking panning and levels and eq if necessary, with the SS hooked up so I can hear and see the results.

 

The boards are going in directly, one at a time, into the SS, so trying to make the signal path as neutral as possible.Once the patches are tweaked, I will introduce the SM10 to see if there are issues there.

My first board is the Artis, and I am waiting for patches to upload as I am typing this.

So stay tuned

[SK]

Hey, thanks HAM&EGZ, I appreciate it.

[AnotherScott]

AFA Scotts wish list for a two piece unit, I can see trying to cut the weight, but it is nice to grab one unit(albeit 39 lbs, but I have a Rock N Roll Dolly) and one less piece of equipment to wire up

Yes, I could see some people preferring that as well. That's why my thought was to offer both, and those who would prefer the two-piece would have the option, even if at higher cost, while people who prefer the one-piece could still buy that.

BTW, the SS fits perfectly in a QSC K10 bag!

Very good to know! Putting it in that kind of bag might make it easier to handle as a one-piece as well, compared to carrying it by its own top handle.

[smanzella]

What are the chances of a model with a larger woofer (10 or 12 inch) being released?

[Aspen]

"So far in the thread, there's been one mention of an AP patch sounding "thin", which was remedied by turning the pan slightly to the left (makes sense, as it would boost the lower end of the keyboard.)

 

More input from anyone on this, please, including from Aspen if possible, as to how to get the best AP sound from this unit - thanks so much in advance."

In my experience the AP patches do vary from fairly "mono" to pretty wide. The wider patches usually have some strong stereo modeling to it give that big grand piano tone...call it resonance for lack of a better word.

So the way SS works, the wider patches will bring out more side level, and so you will hear far more pronounced differences b/w the various AP patches than you would in your former mono system. This is normal, as is the reaction to "pan more to left" to "correct" that thinner sound (which may have been simply too much side IMHO).

One thing I have noticed over the many years I have demoed CPS systems was that the piano sound designers made some very narrow (mono) patches, probably BECAUSE nobody was really playing (live) in stereo (because they really couldn't before CPS). Therefore faced with that reality, I believe the piano programmers were optimizing some of the patches for mono and live performance, while others were made much wider for recording applications.

 

In the case of comparing any SS to your former mono rigs (or even conventional stereo rigs where you were not listening in the small "sweet spot), little difference will be heard using these more mono patches, just because there is little or no dramatic stereo content (and so little or no side level). As I often tell folks, there is no reason to buy a CPS system if your content is mostly mono!

But now that some of you have a CPS V.3, I believe you will begin to re-embrace the obvious advantages of the wider stereo patches (now made possible thru the SS) you may change both your patch selections and your mixing strategy. In general while "more left pan" may have produced more bottom, in fact that gave you a more "mono" content (and less side speaker level)...which was a pleasing result. However, in retrospect, I would rather have advised to KEEP the stereo pan dead center (and so maximizing the stereo model), and just trim back the Side level (width control), while increasing the master level to make up any volume loss.

[AnotherScott]

in retrospect, I would rather have advised to KEEP the stereo pan dead center (and so maximizing the stereo model), and just trim back the Side level (width control), while increasing the master level to make up any volume loss.

If I understand what you're suggesting, that leads to the problem of possibly needing to alter knobs on the SpaceStation itself whenever you switch from, say, your piano sound to your clonewheel, which is not practical (to say nothing of the quandry it puts you in if you're playing piano and organ simultaneously).

[Aspen]

(I wish I could get the hang of this Q&A reply routine, like having the paragraph w/ the question boxed above and my answer contained below. Guess I need to get some lessons, or is there a "help" section that teaches this?)

But anyway, as Hammond Eggs is considering recording his SS performances (by request), and others may also want to do that too, I can offer some advice from my experiences.

First off, it would obviously need to be a stereo recording in a room. While there are many types of stereo recording techniques, IMHO none work as well for capturing the "being there" result as a M/S (mid.side) system. This is what I used in my CPS recording demos.

You can use any two mics that offer a Cardioid pattern (most all mics do), and a mic with a Figure 8 polar pattern (few do this), and they do not need to be matched. Then you need an MS box, aka "sum and difference" matrix, which inhales the Cardioid and Fig 8 (usually line level) signals and exhales L&R. Also many HD recording software programs offer an MS patch thereby eliminating the need for the outboard MS box. There are also several "plug & play" MS stereo mics, from under $100 to $500+ like the Shure VP88 I use for over drums at APR. Nuemann makes one too, but for $5K+ (used!), which I think is unnecessary for this exersize. I used a GT67 over a GT40 (my old GT tube mics) nad a GT M/S box (6 years out of production).

Now just set these up one on top of the other in a large room (larger is best!)facing centered to the speaker and let 'er roll! When mixing down you can vary the levels Front and Side mics to dial in the stereo width.

 

 

[Jazzmammal]

I wish I could get the hang of this Q&A reply routine, like having the paragraph w/ the question boxed above and my answer contained below. Guess I need to get some lessons, or is there a "help" section that teaches this?

 

Aspen all you do is hit the Quote button at the bottom of whatever post you want to respond to. That opens an edit window with the quote tags in front of the text and at the end of the text. All you do is use your cursor to delete the text you don't want just leaving whatever text you want to quote in between those two quote tags. You don't even need to hit the quote button, you can simply hand type in the two quote tags using the exact quote symbols. They start with two bracket symbols alone [] with the word quote in the middle and ends with the two brackets with a backslash followed by the word quote to close it[/]. The brackets and the backslash are used for all the different tags like italics for example. You use the brackets with the letter i.

 

Bob

[HAMEGZ]

, as Hammond Eggs is considering recording his SS performances (by request), and others may also want to do that too, I can offer some advice from my experiences.

 

 

I was going to email you in regards to some advice on this project before attempting it, but you provided excellent advice and good points.

 

I am sure you will receive some PMs(private messages) so we need to get you up to speed on that if you are not already versed on such.

 

I am glad you are here, Aspen, and finally found the time to join us.

To let you know, my drummer called me yesterday to specifically tell me how great the SS (and me) sounded over the weekend, and how well they could hear the keys.In fact, he preferred the SS over my K10 and ZX1A.

[AnotherScott]

it would obviously need to be a stereo recording in a room. While there are many types of stereo recording techniques, IMHO none work as well for capturing the "being there" result as a M/S (mid.side) system.

How about a binaural recording? As long as the result is played back through headphones, it seems to me that might be the easiest way to let people hear what it is they would be hearing if they were in the room.

[SK]

"So far in the thread, there's been one mention of an AP patch sounding "thin", which was remedied by turning the pan slightly to the left (makes sense, as it would boost the lower end of the keyboard.)

 

More input from anyone on this, please, including from Aspen if possible, as to how to get the best AP sound from this unit - thanks so much in advance."

In my experience the AP patches do vary from fairly "mono" to pretty wide. The wider patches usually have some strong stereo modeling to it give that big grand piano tone...call it resonance for lack of a better word.

So the way SS works, the wider patches will bring out more side level, and so you will hear far more pronounced differences b/w the various AP patches than you would in your former mono system. This is normal, as is the reaction to "pan more to left" to "correct" that thinner sound (which may have been simply too much side IMHO).

One thing I have noticed over the many years I have demoed CPS systems was that the piano sound designers made some very narrow (mono) patches, probably BECAUSE nobody was really playing (live) in stereo (because they really couldn't before CPS). Therefore faced with that reality, I believe the piano programmers were optimizing some of the patches for mono and live performance, while others were made much wider for recording applications.

 

In the case of comparing any SS to your former mono rigs (or even conventional stereo rigs where you were not listening in the small "sweet spot), little difference will be heard using these more mono patches, just because there is little or no dramatic stereo content (and so little or no side level). As I often tell folks, there is no reason to buy a CPS system if your content is mostly mono!

But now that some of you have a CPS V.3, I believe you will begin to re-embrace the obvious advantages of the wider stereo patches (now made possible thru the SS) you may change both your patch selections and your mixing strategy. In general while "more left pan" may have produced more bottom, in fact that gave you a more "mono" content (and less side speaker level)...which was a pleasing result. However, in retrospect, I would rather have advised to KEEP the stereo pan dead center (and so maximizing the stereo model), and just trim back the Side level (width control), while increasing the master level to make up any volume loss.

Thanks for your generous reply, Aspen (although the system I use is stereo, not mono.) So it seems there will be more tweaking considerations to get the best balance of stereo/mono from a particular piano patch... and that sounds interesting to me. I also would start with stereo set in the middle.

 

My question about general sound quality regarding a piano sound is probably unanswerable. Sound, like music, is hard to convey through words, so...I think the only way for me to know is to hear it myself. And thanks again.

[cphollis]

Regarding Aspen's comments on acoustic piano programs and their respective stereo content ... makes sense. For example, the Nords I play have a definite and tangible stereo element to their acoustic piano samples (even without effects), which I think will work nicely as far as the CPS goes.

 

My only concern is accuracy of reproduction of the tones themselves.

 

I've burned through a lot of amplification gear that couldn't handle the transients from those samples without compressing or distorting them. I probably won't know the answer until I bite the bullet and get one to try it.

 

Or one of you guys gives it a go