Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[DoverDave]

Hi - this is my first time posting; I guess I would categorize myself as a weekend warrior, playing out anywhere from 2 to 6 times a month. I've had a SS MKII for several years, and use it in a couple of different situations; one is a more downsized setup, small PA, 2 monitors - the other somewhat larger, 8 piece band with horns, bigger PA with 4 monitors and a subwoofer. In both cases, the SS gets the job done - in the smaller situation, I would bring along another amp to give it a little more low end; in the larger group, I use the sub out to the PA. The guitarist in that larger band, who himself is on an unending quest for THE sound, loved the amp, and said for the first time that he could really hear me (previously, I used a Motion Sound KBR-3D... a great concept, but not so well executed). This past weekend, I used the new CPS V3 at a medium sized club, with the V3 sitting on a stool behind and slightly to my right, against the back wall. We ran it through the FOH and it was killer - at least for my simple setup (single keyboard - Nord Stage Compact). The acoustic piano cut through nicely without being harsh, and of course the stereo image was there (at least for me on stage) - likewise for the electric pianos and clav - and the hammond and vox sounds were warm when they needed to be, and screamed when I wanted them to. The additional drivers really help to strengthen / clarify the mids and highs. The guitarist, who sets up next to me, likes the V3 even better than the MKII, and said it's the best my keys have ever sounded (Incidentally, we also played a larger place the week before, and I used the MKII there through the FOH; my cousin, who runs sound there, was shocked at the strong, clean signal from the MKII - and she ran monitors for the Police on their last tour, so she knows a thing or two). Now, I'm not really much of a gear head; I've owned a fair number of keyboards, but not a whole lot of amps. As a piano technician (my day job), no amplifier is EVER, in my opinion, going to accurately reproduce the experience of being in a room with a grand piano - no matter how detailed the sample. The best we can do is to make the amplified sound as encompassing for the audience as possible - remove the sensation that they're undergoing a frontal assault. That might not be possible in a large venue, but I think what Aspen is offering us is the possibility of doing that in the smaller places. I saw a couple of posts earlier in the thread concerning the idea of using a stack of CPS amps on top of a sub woofer - the exact idea that I had proposed to Aspen in an email. At first he thought it might cause some cancellation issues, but when he saw that what I intended was to have both amps aligned the same way, and having 2 separate stereo mixes (one reproducing the vocals and horns, the other for keys, guitar, and bass), he thought it might actually work. Could be tricky balancing the sound with the drummer - balance being the operative term here; but it could also be a nice experience. Most of our gigs (I'm talking about my bands here) are in restaurants with dance floors - the people listening to us are usually no more than 40 feet away. Now that I have a pair of these amps (albeit not exactly alike), I want to try this idea. I'll probably get some resistance, but I'll make it happen, and if it doesn't work out, at least I tried. I bought an inexpensive mixer along with the new CPS, just to try the idea - no monitors, no big PA, everyone hearing the exact same mix in stereo, at the same level the audience hears. If we could just kick it back a couple of notches, bring the levels down to where people feel the music but don't get lost in the cacophony of competing amps and monitors... that would be cool.

[drawback]

in the smaller situation, I would bring along another amp to give it a little more low end; in the larger group, I use the sub out to the PA.

 

Assuming your FOH is mono. Most PAs I'm going through these days are stereo, so instead of giving the house a summed output from the V.3, I'd probably take the stereo lines back to the V.3 via the DIs.

 

 

[AndyW]

Thanks DoverDave. Are you playing with a bass player? Sounds like you are but wanted to check.

[DoverDave]

in the smaller situation, I would bring along another amp to give it a little more low end; in the larger group, I use the sub out to the PA.

 

Assuming your FOH is mono. Most PAs I'm going through these days are stereo, so instead of giving the house a summed output from the V.3, I'd probably take the stereo lines back to the V.3 via the DIs.

 

When we use our own PA, it can run stereo - the KBR 3D had L & R balanced outs, and I sometimes ran that into the board. Honestly, in the smaller places that we play, I think the audience gets a nice mix of the stereo effect of the CPS, with a taste of the keys going through the PA to push me over the top. The few larger places we play that have a house system and someone to run it, are mono. I'll have to ask my cousin how much of what she heard was the mono send to the FOH, and if the MKII sound was making it beyond the stage. She was impressed with the amp, that's for sure. Her husband is a great keyboard player, and I think she wants to get him one for his birthday.

 

Thanks DoverDave. Are you playing with a bass player? Sounds like you are but wanted to check.

 

We have a bass player - although I used to do LH bass back in the 90's, and for a while I used a borrowed Klipsch cabinet and Uri power amp, and a 360 Systems midi bass module. Then the band leader decided to put everything through the PA, with side fill monitors. That made balancing the band and singing harmonies easier, but our sound was really thin. A couple of times, recently, I used the MKII with another amp as a sub, and played LH bass - it worked fine, but it was on a small scale. I'm sure the new amp would work even better - but if you try to push too much bass through these amps without some assistance, it will break up.

 

Thanks guys -

[16251]

Hi - this is my first time posting;

 

Paragraphs help (FYI - excellent post!)

[cphollis]

DoverDave -- thanks for the detailed notes. I think I'm getting closer to a picture of how this unit might perform for me.

 

Nice to hear that you were running Nord acoustic pianos through it, and you liked the sound OK. You weren't exactly raving about it, but it wasn't objectionable. The fact that you consider it better than the Motion Sound KBR-3D tells me a lot, as I struggled with one of those for a while.

 

Interesting thoughts about using a few of them as a PA. I'll wait for others to experiment on that one ...

[DoverDave]

 

Nice to hear that you were running Nord acoustic pianos through it, and you liked the sound OK. You weren't exactly raving about it, but it wasn't objectionable. The fact that you consider it better than the Motion Sound KBR-3D tells me a lot, as I struggled with one of those for a while.

 

I love my Nords (Stage Compact, C2-D) - they're just different from everything else. To be fair, my Stage is the "Classic" - the old one with not much room for piano samples. I'm not playing very pianistically in this band, and I'm using one of the smaller grand samples right now, to conserve space for upright and eps, and a harpsichord. So I really haven't had a chance to try and tweak a really sweet piano sound yet. All I can say is, straight out of the box without messing with it much, it gave me a nice acoustic piano sound that cut through.

[SK]

My only concern is accuracy of reproduction of the tones themselves.

Exactly, with a piano sound being the hardest to reproduce.

 

If I knew for sure the CPS can give clear, accurate tone reproduction and not sound more muddy or boxy for digital piano(I'm not expecting highest quality or 'Sonic Nirvana' here), then I'm down to buy it. So far, reports are encouraging.

[cphollis]

OK, based on everything here, just called Sweetwater and ordered one. Three weeks or so they said, as it's backordered.

 

I will make sure that I offer up a detailed review on this unit and how it does with Nord acoustic piano voices as part of an electric band.

[HAMEGZ]

OK, based on everything here, just called Sweetwater and ordered one. Three weeks or so they said, as it's backordered.

 

I will make sure that I offer up a detailed review on this unit and how it does with Nord acoustic piano voices as part of an electric band.

 

I don't think you will be disappointed.

 

I have run thru my boards adjusting the pan and levels , I have mt Nord Stage 2 -73 left to do. I will share my observations with you asap.

 

I will say one thing, hearing my playing in this new environment has recharged me. I am no longer just pressing keys down, I am playing to enjoy and enjoying to play once again.

[AndyW]

Thanks for all the info and keep it coming. I've had one on order for a couple of weeks.

 

I mainly want it to make the SK2 Leslie better but as a jazz player I do not like the idea of taking two amps (a sub). Do you guys think the v3 be a good tool for me or should I look into the minivent?

[AnotherScott]

I mainly want it to make the SK2 Leslie better but as a jazz player I do not like the idea of taking two amps (a sub). Do you guys think the v3 be a good tool for me or should I look into the minivent?

I'm not sure I see the correlation between being a jazz player and only wanting to take one amp, but I'm sure there's a joke to be had in there somewhere!

 

Anyway, the two are very different. One way to look at it is that people have said the Vent is very good at giving you the sound of a mic'd up leslie played through speakers. The SpaceStation effect is more one of being near the leslie speaker itself. OTOH, if you want the rotary sim to better emulate the sonic character of a real Leslie (especially in terms of improving the overdrive... though that's probably not the biggest issue for jazz players), the Vent will do that, the speaker won't.

[Jazzmammal]

When someone says they're playing jazz organ that usually means LH bass and/or pedals hence the need for a sub.

 

Bob

[AndyW]

I'm not sure I see the correlation between being a jazz player and only wanting to take one amp, but I'm sure there's a joke to be had in there somewhere!

 

I'm lazy and like to travel light!!!

[DoverDave]

I mainly want it to make the SK2 Leslie better but as a jazz player I do not like the idea of taking two amps (a sub). Do you guys think the v3 be a good tool for me or should I look into the minivent?

 

You don't have to go big on the second amp - a small bass combo amp would probably be all you need; you could carry one in each hand and not break a sweat. I don't know about the SK2 leslie, since I play a nord, but I bet you'll like your internal sim a lot better going through the V3, and if you choose to go with a vent, it will sound that much better if it goes through the V3 as well.

 

[Analogaddict]

I'm lazy and like to travel light!!!

 

Amen to that! Either a real Leslie and a 2-manual organ or the smallest, most lightweight.

[Aspen]

"Aspen all you do is hit the Quote button at the bottom of whatever post you want to respond to. That opens an edit window with the quote tags in front of the text and at the end of the text. All you do is use your cursor to delete the text you don't want just leaving whatever text you want to quote in between those two quote tags."

Great, thanks! (if you are reading this then I have passed the test!)

 

[HAMEGZ]

OK your second test was delivered I sent you a PM

[B. J. Love]

Man, I want this to work! I tried a Mark II when GC was blowing them out. I liked it a lot, but it just couldn't keep up volume-wise - not even with a cranked 15W Blues Jr. I liked the concept so much I bought the Fender SFX 200. Great sound, loud as hell, but huge and HEAVY. After rotator cuff surgery, I just couldn't schlep it anymore - even with wheels. I love the clarity I get from a pair of ZXA-1s, but the faux Leslie is somehow less satisfying than the Fender, speaker placement is always a challenge on small stages - it seems they're always too close to me, to spread apart, too close together... Man, I want this to work!

[Aspen]

What i would like to see in the future is a version that is a split into two units, the speaker cabinet and a same-footprint amplifier head that would sit directly above. I suppose that what makes that awkward is that you would need to have four connections to mate the various amps of the head to the various speakers in the cabinet. But for ease of transport, it would be great to reduce the 39 lb box to a pair of boxes that were each under, say, 25 lbs. If that could be offered at, say, a $100 premium over the one-piece version, I think there would be a market for that.

 

I was thinking that the two-piece version could be sold at an additional premium if it has some basic mixing facilities on the top, but if that just doesn't make sense for you, it would be okay if there were space on top to do something like velcro on a small mixer (like the Behringer 502 or Yamaha MG06).

...I was thinking that the two-piece version could be sold at an additional premium if it has some basic mixing facilities on the top, but if that just doesn't make sense for you, it would be okay if there were space on top to do something like velcro on a small mixer (like the Behringer 502 or Yamaha MG06).

All great ideas Scott, and FYI we already have had this product line in past like the one Ray Manzarek used, but the cost was just to high. Each new product we manufacturers release adds a bunch of new (hidden) expense most folks don't consider (another cab, extra connectors, extra metal parts, extra feet,another box, another certification process expense, etc). So in my experience the premium for this split is more than 15%. But as I consider ways to make the V.3's big brother product, I will again consider your good points and see if I can keep the costs down. One point in favor of your suggestion is that a larger single unit could weigh up to 60 lbs...so a separated system would then be easier to handle. Regarding features like multi channels and DSP...it is as you say; small mixers on top of a head/amp unit may be the most cost effective solution. I need to stay focused on providing the one thing we do that nobody else can, 3D stereo everywhere, and there is no way with my small volume I can compete with Behringer or Yamaha on the mixer market!

[Aspen]

Hi - this is my first time posting; I guess I would categorize myself as a weekend warrior, playing out anywhere from 2 to 6 times a month. I've had a SS MKII for several years, and use it in a couple of different situations; one is a more downsized setup, small PA, 2 monitors - the other somewhat larger, 8 piece band with horns, bigger PA with 4 monitors and a subwoofer. In both cases, the SS gets the job done - in the smaller situation, I would bring along another amp to give it a little more low end; in the larger group, I use the sub out to the PA. The guitarist in that larger band, who himself is on an unending quest for THE sound, loved the amp, and said for the first time that he could really hear me (previously, I used a Motion Sound KBR-3D... a great concept, but not so well executed). This past weekend, I used the new CPS V3 at a medium sized club, with the V3 sitting on a stool behind and slightly to my right, against the back wall. We ran it through the FOH and it was killer - at least for my simple setup (single keyboard - Nord Stage Compact). The acoustic piano cut through nicely without being harsh, and of course the stereo image was there (at least for me on stage) - likewise for the electric pianos and clav - and the hammond and vox sounds were warm when they needed to be, and screamed when I wanted them to. The additional drivers really help to strengthen / clarify the mids and highs. The guitarist, who sets up next to me, likes the V3 even better than the MKII, and said it's the best my keys have ever sounded (Incidentally, we also played a larger place the week before, and I used the MKII there through the FOH; my cousin, who runs sound there, was shocked at the strong, clean signal from the MKII - and she ran monitors for the Police on their last tour, so she knows a thing or two). Now, I'm not really much of a gear head; I've owned a fair number of keyboards, but not a whole lot of amps. As a piano technician (my day job), no amplifier is EVER, in my opinion, going to accurately reproduce the experience of being in a room with a grand piano - no matter how detailed the sample. The best we can do is to make the amplified sound as encompassing for the audience as possible - remove the sensation that they're undergoing a frontal assault. That might not be possible in a large venue, but I think what Aspen is offering us is the possibility of doing that in the smaller places. I saw a couple of posts earlier in the thread concerning the idea of using a stack of CPS amps on top of a sub woofer - the exact idea that I had proposed to Aspen in an email. At first he thought it might cause some cancellation issues, but when he saw that what I intended was to have both amps aligned the same way, and having 2 separate stereo mixes (one reproducing the vocals and horns, the other for keys, guitar, and bass), he thought it might actually work. Could be tricky balancing the sound with the drummer - balance being the operative term here; but it could also be a nice experience. Most of our gigs (I'm talking about my bands here) are in restaurants with dance floors - the people listening to us are usually no more than 40 feet away. Now that I have a pair of these amps (albeit not exactly alike), I want to try this idea. I'll probably get some resistance, but I'll make it happen, and if it doesn't work out, at least I tried. I bought an inexpensive mixer along with the new CPS, just to try the idea - no monitors, no big PA, everyone hearing the exact same mix in stereo, at the same level the audience hears. If we could just kick it back a couple of notches, bring the levels down to where people feel the music but don't get lost in the cacophony of competing amps and monitors... that would be cool.

The more think about this Dave, the more interesting it sounds so I am MOST anxious to hear your review after you try it. It reminds me of a small scale re enactment of that old Grateful Dead PA from the 70's. You may have seen that massive speaker array set behind them on scaffolds. I was like 40' tall and the width of the stage. Each band member was split in the mix and sent into their own amps and cabs. The cabs were mixed around and arranged so everyone heard each other (from behind) in about the same stage mix. But it was also much of the main SPL that went out to their vast audience. All JBL cabs, some driven by McIntosh 275 tube amps. What I recall from those hazy days was; "far out man". But I think that's what blew out their ears, I know mine are still ringing : > )

[HAMEGZ]

Well Aspen, if the SS evolves into a mini pa you KNOW your going to have to build a companion sub!!

[Aspen]

Regarding Aspen's comments on acoustic piano programs and their respective stereo content ... makes sense. For example, the Nords I play have a definite and tangible stereo element to their acoustic piano samples (even without effects), which I think will work nicely as far as the CPS goes.

 

My only concern is accuracy of reproduction of the tones themselves.

 

I've burned through a lot of amplification gear that couldn't handle the transients from those samples without compressing or distorting them. I probably won't know the answer until I bite the bullet and get one to try it.

 

Or one of you guys gives it a go

I understand completly, and that is why I decided to go with a Tri-Amped Front speaker system, as is often used in larger PA setups to get clarity and intelligibility. However, all the 2 or 3 way keyboard amp/speaker system designs (as I know) on the market today use passive crossovers following one single amp...and that I believe is what you are complaining about.

When you ask one amp to reproduce the full bandwidth, especially at higher playing levels, intermodulation distortion is quite high...and that muddies up your sound (compresses in a bad way). This effect is made worse with the dynamic content of today's AP patches.

That is because one amp is burdened with reproducing all frequencies and the lower frequencies kinda push around the mids and highs (bass is always the bully in the room). When they hit the ceiling and distort, every frequency is similarly distorted...hence the term "inter" modulation (one affecting the other).

Sound designers know that separating these frequencies into 3 areas (LF, MF, HF) BEFORE the amplifier stages, then using 3 separate amps, means NO intermodulation distortion. If the bass section amp get a big grand piano low note and distorts for a second, is it not nearly as noticeable because it doesn't cause the Mids and Highs to be distorted.

Additionally, the individual level controls allows you to "tune" your system....call it our build in piano tuner :>)

Of course, 3 amps cost more than 1...but when it comes to great sound sometimes you have to spend 3x more to get hit the goal...my goal was the most realistic sound possible.

I wanted a speaker you could use as a Hi Fi at the back yard BBQ and say...wow, not bad! And also one that COULD cover the wonderful realistic acoustic piano patches out there today. I think we hit that goal for small to medium sized gigs at least. Of course adding a small sub makes this even better for the larger gig...and I highly recommend that (note: this does NOT need to be an expensive sub, the one I use cost $100 at Best Buy, a 10" 100wt Sony)

If/when I make that larger Spacestation, as many have requested, I will probably stay with the tri-amp approach. It spoils you.

 

[Aspen]

in retrospect, I would rather have advised to KEEP the stereo pan dead center (and so maximizing the stereo model), and just trim back the Side level (width control), while increasing the master level to make up any volume loss.

If I understand what you're suggesting, that leads to the problem of possibly needing to alter knobs on the SpaceStation itself whenever you switch from, say, your piano sound to your clonewheel, which is not practical (to say nothing of the quandry it puts you in if you're playing piano and organ simultaneously).

Well, if you have your width control about 12 o'clock this is not much of an issue. You would hear about the same levels but of course less stereo effect. Much the same as you experience now on a mono amp.

However, CPS brings out the stereo magic as nothing else can (other than headphones), and once you hear a piano patch with more stereo content you will probably change your preferences and start using that one!

And again, the piano DSP developers have long ago realized most guys play live thru a mono amp, so they offer both mono and stereo patches...for live and studio work.

All I am saying is the stereo patches will now WORK thru CPS and sound more like your recording patches when you play outlive. The more mono patches will sound about the same as what you have now....booooring!

[AnotherScott]

I love the clarity I get from a pair of ZXA-1s, but the faux Leslie is somehow less satisfying than the Fender, speaker placement is always a challenge on small stages - it seems they're always too close to me, to spread apart, too close together...

Yeah, I think many of us here agree... The ZXa1 is a great speaker for playing mono, but two-speaker stereo on stage usually creates more problems than it solves.

[Aspen]

Welcome, and thanks for listening..! I hope I'll see your products in Europe soon, the Space Station looks perfect for most gigs I do..!

 

Edit: oops, didn't see your post. It's a shame Thomann turned you down. The other big retailer is musicstore.com, but they're also more focused on bread-and-butter stuff. Ep-service import a lot of interesting stuff, including the Vintage Vibe pianos. They may be a candidate..!

To my fellow "analog addict" (nice name!), THANK YOU so much for your suggestions. I know of "The" music store (Koln. yes?), they have a great reputation. They used to be my dealer when I owned Groove Tubes and GT amps (for 30 years!). Back then I drove all over Germany and hit all the big stores, but my contacts there were the guitar guys, and V.3 is more a keyboad product, or small pub PA. I will reach out to them but I am sure they are very busy.

The other one you mentioned, EP-service, is new to me and sounds interesting. If they already handle my pals over at Vintage Vibe (great stuff) then I know they are quaility guys who like interesting keyboard products...so I will try and get in contact with them as well.

My export goal is to find a single outlet for Germany (and maybe for the rest of EU) to keep the street price low...as I have done in USA by partnering exclusively with Sweetwater. That usually means "no distributors" but rather large retail shops...and many of these do not like the trouble with importing into the EC (lots of expensive roadblocks)...but I will keep trying.

Thanks again so much for your kind words, suggestions and interest in CPS.

[DoverDave]

Hi Aspen!

 

I did see the Dead in 1973 at Watkins Glen, using that system... unfortunately, as you may know, that concert had roughly 200,000 more attendees (a.k.a. gate-crashers) than Woodstock, and we couldn't even get CLOSE enough to the stage to hear anything! We were camped about 3/4 mile from the field, and around 2 AM, I think we could faintly hear the Allmans (maybe all three bands, the Dead, The Band, and Allman Bros.) jamming on Whipping Post. They weren't able to crank the system loud enough to reach deep into the sea of humanity on that huge field... people kept shouting "LOUDER!"... it was actually a scary experience to be in the middle of that many people.

 

I think this is going to work - it might take a bit of rethinking, as far as our playing goes; and the 16 channel Behringer demo mixer that I bought from Sweetwater seems to have a problem with the main right channel. I'm hoping it's just my ineptitude with mixers, and I'll have a "duh" moment, soon , otherwise, I'll have to send it back and get something else.

 

BTW, I forgot to mention that the club owner and several audience members commented on how good my keyboard sounded last Saturday. Not being as technically minded as some of the posters here, I'm a bit reticent when it comes to rating gear performance. I did try playing a left hand bass line and comp on my C2D going through the new V3, and measured the loudest volume I could play at without causing the speakers to break up - and that measured about 85 dB at a distance of roughly 3 feet (caveat: measured with android app). That's with no help from another amp, and the bass sounded good to me, so depending on one's definition of organ jazz and what type of place you're playing it in, I think the amp could hold its own in an organ trio or quartet without adding a sub- of course, that's a bit subjective. I personally just love the way the nord leslie sim sounds through it!

 

Dave

[Aspen]

Well Aspen, if the SS evolves into a mini pa you KNOW your going to have to build a companion sub!!

Thank you for your interest and comments, but frankly spoken, I am not a "conventional" company anymore. I do not want to have a big catalog of "Elvis Impersonator" products and live for the next NAMM show. Been there, done that.

I want to focus my remaining time on Earth and life energy on NEW ideas...including my patented CPS technology. I'll let the Big Boys make the subs, and mixers. And, there are already sooo many already on the market now!

I believe that "opportunities are problems in disguise", so I am interested in finding solutions to problems. But finding a good sub is not a problem.

None the less I greatly appreciate your suggestion and the "opportunity" for this discussion.

[cphollis]

Aspen -- big kudos for engaging with folks here on the forum.

 

Not only can you get great feedback and inputs from this knowledgable gang, but I'm sure that more than a few people have now decided to take the plunge on the V.3 -- myself included.

 

Mine is backordered at Sweetwater, but I'm very much looking forward to putting it to work, at which time I'm sure I'll have some suggestions for you to consider going forward.

 

Fully understand your point on focusing where you can make the most impact.

 

The built-in mixer comments are mostly about convenience. Many of us have a pair of stereo outs from two keyboards, so we schlep along a small mixer, a wall wart, and another pair of cables. Having something minimal built-in means less things to worry about, but albeit at additional product cost -- although some are willing to pay for the convenience factor.

[AndyW]

There's a glowing review on Sweetwater.