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#2847941 - 04/08/17 11:10 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: timwat]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: timwat
Yeah that's the only thing that keeps me from schlepping the two amps to every gig. I get indignant in my head ("why should i have to bring both dammit?")...but then it's worth it on the gig.

I only came up with this because of a free afternoon, too much coffee, and time to kill...

Okay, I just checked it real quick.

K8 on top with the SS speaker facing forward works best for me. Al's method with the speaker face down does not sound as good to my ear; however, I did roll off the mids and highs on the SS all the way, and I like the way that sounds better. K8 is set with Bass Boost on, which really fills out the overall sound. K8 volume is set to 3 o'clock, SS volume at 12 o'clock.

I like it. Definitely helping a whole bunch with the velocity thing. twothumbs

dB
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#2847972 - 04/08/17 04:00 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
16251 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: timwat
Yeah that's the only thing that keeps me from schlepping the two amps to every gig. I get indignant in my head ("why should i have to bring both dammit?")...but then it's worth it on the gig.

I only came up with this because of a free afternoon, too much coffee, and time to kill...

Okay, I just checked it real quick.

K8 on top with the SS speaker facing forward works best for me. Al's method with the speaker face down does not sound as good to my ear; however, I did roll off the mids and highs on the SS all the way, and I like the way that sounds better. K8 is set with Bass Boost on, which really fills out the overall sound. K8 volume is set to 3 o'clock, SS volume at 12 o'clock.

I like it. Definitely helping a whole bunch with the velocity thing. twothumbs

dB
Is this speaker on top give you the direct presence and being mono, that the SSv3 doesn't do at close range?
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#2848044 - 04/08/17 11:29 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: 16251]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: 16251
Is this speaker on top give you the direct presence and being mono, that the SSv3 doesn't do at close range?

I'm not sure I understand the question... idk

It's not a case of the top speaker being mono, or performing as such. The whole tower is an integrated M/S stereo system. I blended the volumes pretty carefully. The top speaker is essentially just acting as an extention of the SS front array.

Truth be told, the sound is much bigger than it was with just the SS - the bass boost on the K8 is way helping with that. The stereo bloom is especially fun, too.

Can't thank Al and Tim enough for the tip.

dB
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#2848045 - 04/08/17 11:33 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
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OK, chiming in for the first time on this massive thread with a question - what kind of motion does the SS impart to a good leslie sim line a vent? Does the sound swirl like spinning air?
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#2848047 - 04/09/17 12:19 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: matted stump]
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Originally Posted By: mate stubb
what kind of motion does the SS impart to a good leslie sim line a vent? Does the sound swirl like spinning air?


No. Well, kind of. Others may know more about this than me, but my understanding of the way the 3D effect is produced and based on using the SS3 with the Nord Electro 4 and 5 simulations is this:

Assuming no reverb or other sounds in the mix, if you were facing the simulated rotating speaker driver and it was "pointed" directly at you, the SS3's front speaker (only) would be making sound. If the driver then rotated to your left, the SS3 side speaker would begin sounding, positive phase out one side, negative phase out the other. As the driver rotates to the rear, the SS3 front speaker takes over. As it rotates to the right, the SS3 side speaker takes over again, this time with the phase polarity reversed.

So, that's what it sounds like to me, and explained based on what I have read in this thread. If you A/B'd it with a Leslie, there would be a big difference. If you A/B'd it with two stereo speakers, there would be a different difference. In this thread, there are YouTube links to demonstrations of the amp, but they may be either stereo recordings of the SS3 in a room or close-mic'ed mid-side recordings.

You really have to hear one.
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#2848054 - 04/09/17 04:51 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
16251 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: 16251
Is this speaker on top give you the direct presence and being mono, that the SSv3 doesn't do at close range?

I'm not sure I understand the question... idk

It's not a case of the top speaker being mono, or performing as such. The whole tower is an integrated M/S stereo system. I blended the volumes pretty carefully. The top speaker is essentially just acting as an extention of the SS front array.

Truth be told, the sound is much bigger than it was with just the SS - the bass boost on the K8 is way helping with that. The stereo bloom is especially fun, too.

Can't thank Al and Tim enough for the tip.

dB
I thought the sub-out is a mono feed so when used with low-sub it enhances the bass, but if it's an 8" speaker then I'm thinking it's enhancing the close presence of the high end. I have limited knowledge in this area.

You're saying the sub-out is only the front array?...

edit: I had a gig yesterday and was looking forward to using my SSv3 but low and behold they had a Yamaha baby grand that was in tune, which I'll choose every time.


Edited by 16251 (04/09/17 04:53 AM)
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#2848072 - 04/09/17 07:13 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Ledbetter]
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Originally Posted By: 16251
I thought the sub-out is a mono feed
...
You're saying the sub-out is only the front array?

My understanding is those two things are the same. The front speaker of the SS is putting out the sum of the Left and Right inputs... that is, mono. And that's the feed that goes to the line out (which isn't really a sub out per se, since it is full range, IIRC). The pseudo-stereo effect is created by sending a L-R signal to the other speaker, and then what happens when the sound from those two speakers interact with each other and hit your ears.
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#2848088 - 04/09/17 08:55 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: 16251
I thought the sub-out is a mono feed
...
You're saying the sub-out is only the front array?

My understanding is those two things are the same. The front speaker of the SS is putting out the sum of the Left and Right inputs... that is, mono. And that's the feed that goes to the line out (which isn't really a sub out per se, since it is full range, IIRC). The pseudo-stereo effect is created by sending a L-R signal to the other speaker, and then what happens when the sound from those two speakers interact with each other and hit your ears.

Yep.

The only thing I would add is that the side speaker "lobes" in both directions - the front and the back - to help create the effect.

Although I've never attempted it (and assuming I understand it correctly grin ), a decoded M/S signal would need to come back to a stereo mixer on three channels - L+R panned center on one, and L-R assigned to two channels out of phase with each other, panned hard left and right and -6dB from the L+R channel.

dB
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#2848101 - 04/09/17 09:59 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
16251 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Originally Posted By: 16251
I thought the sub-out is a mono feed
...
You're saying the sub-out is only the front array?

My understanding is those two things are the same. The front speaker of the SS is putting out the sum of the Left and Right inputs... that is, mono. And that's the feed that goes to the line out (which isn't really a sub out per se, since it is full range, IIRC). The pseudo-stereo effect is created by sending a L-R signal to the other speaker, and then what happens when the sound from those two speakers interact with each other and hit your ears.


Again, I'm a layman, but from what I read the front speaker of SSv3 is not a copy of the sub out. My takeaway is that it's a combination of the front and side speakers, which is mono. Wouldn't that make the K8 true mono.

I understand the bloom still happens cause of the side speaker, so you'll still hear the bloom, but it leaves the K8 to give you an "in your face" sound on stage that some people say is lacking if the SSv3 is too close.
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#2848103 - 04/09/17 10:07 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: 16251]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: 16251
Again, I'm a layman, but from what I read the front speaker of SSv3 is not a copy of the sub out. My takeaway is that it's a combination of the front and side speakers, which is mono. Wouldn't that make the K8 true mono.

I understand the bloom still happens cause of the side speaker, so you'll still hear the bloom, but it leaves the K8 to give you an "in your face" sound on stage that some people say is lacking if the SSv3 is too close.


The stack is the same distance away from me as the SS would be by itself, so I'm not sure I understand the question. idk

Here's what I can tell you - this combination sounds much better to me than the SS by itself. Bigger, fuller and louder with way more dynamic range...and the M/S effect appears to be completely preserved.

Don't you have a full range cab in the house? If so, why not give it a try - might answer your questions much better.

dB
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#2848112 - 04/09/17 10:32 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: 16251]
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Originally Posted By: 16251
Again, I'm a layman, but from what I read the front speaker of SSv3 is not a copy of the sub out. My takeaway is that it's a combination of the front and side speakers, which is mono. Wouldn't that make the K8 true mono..

Just to clarify some terms...

Again, what you have is better called a Line Out, not a Sub(woofer) Out, since it is full range (though it can certainly function as a Sub Out as long as the sub has its own filter/crossover in it). If it were strictly a Sub Out, the K8 above would only have low frequencies.

Obviously you can't combine speakers per se, so when you talk about combining front and side speakers, it may help to think about what's actually being combined, i.e. what the signal source is.

Okay, so what would you have if you actually combined the signal going to the front speaker WITH the signal going to the side speaker? That's an interesting question.

But let's step back from that. We've already established that the front speaker (well, actually the front set of drivers, since it's more than just the single 8" woofer) produces the sum of the left and right inputs. Right there, you have mono! So all that has to go out to the Line Out is that exact same signal, and you have a Mono Out to another speaker (the QSC in this case).

The side speaker is L-R... that is to say Left MINUS Right. And as has been mentioned, it's actually generating signals out both sides (it's an open cabinet in that direction), out of phase with each other. (Maybe this makes what's coming out the other side Right Minus Left? I'm not sure.)

The spatial effect is the result of your ear combining the MONO signal coming from the front (containing all the Left and Right info from the original stereo input) with the "difference" (one channel minus the other) coming out the sides.

Clear as mud?
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#2848135 - 04/09/17 11:58 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
hatricklov Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: 16251
Is this speaker on top give you the direct presence and being mono, that the SSv3 doesn't do at close range?

I'm not sure I understand the question... idk

It's not a case of the top speaker being mono, or performing as such. The whole tower is an integrated M/S stereo system. I blended the volumes pretty carefully. The top speaker is essentially just acting as an extention of the SS front array.

Truth be told, the sound is much bigger than it was with just the SS - the bass boost on the K8 is way helping with that. The stereo bloom is especially fun, too.

Can't thank Al and Tim enough for the tip.

dB

Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?
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#2848148 - 04/09/17 12:49 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Raymb1]
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Originally Posted By: Raymb1
I've had my SSV3 for over 2 years now and have never regretted buying it. It's the best amp/speaker that I've used in 50 years of playing keyboards. The 3D sound is unlike any other unit unless you're in the narrow sweet spot of a pair good speakers. Everyone hears the 3D sound of the SSV3. Probably thousands of the SSV3s have been sold already with a very small number of players who didn't like it. A very good friend of mine, (a good player), wasn't happy with his SSV3 and returned it. I suspect he didn't want to spend the time to dial it in correctly.


I am with you 100%. I have never regretted buying my v.3 (nor did I regret buying the v.2 years before that). I've used either a v.2 or v.3 since 2010 in over 600 gigs, and on the two occasions I couldn't use it during that time, was totally disappointed in my sound. The only keyboardist I personally knew who didn't like it and returned it, was one who felt it didn't provide clarity on the low-end frequencies, and I think didn't want to run a second amp to address that.
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#2848150 - 04/09/17 12:53 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: hatricklov]
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Originally Posted By: hatricklov
Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: 16251
Is this speaker on top give you the direct presence and being mono, that the SSv3 doesn't do at close range?

I'm not sure I understand the question... idk

It's not a case of the top speaker being mono, or performing as such. The whole tower is an integrated M/S stereo system. I blended the volumes pretty carefully. The top speaker is essentially just acting as an extention of the SS front array.

Truth be told, the sound is much bigger than it was with just the SS - the bass boost on the K8 is way helping with that. The stereo bloom is especially fun, too.

Can't thank Al and Tim enough for the tip.

dB

Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?


hatricklov, everything about the SS3 comes from understanding M/S recording theory and then recognizing the contribution that Aspen has made by commercializing an M/S speaker. Google it. Really. He crossed the diamond with the pearl.

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#2848158 - 04/09/17 01:12 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: hatricklov]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: hatricklov
Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?

Mid/Side processing.

dB
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#2848159 - 04/09/17 01:15 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
timwat Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Can't thank Al and Tim enough for the tip.

dB


Happy to pass along the experiment, db!

We're all learning about this little jewel of an amp together.

Tim
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#2848160 - 04/09/17 01:16 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: hatricklov]
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Originally Posted By: hatricklov
[
Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?


M/S stands for Mid (as in middle) / Side. It's the mic'ing technique that is being reproduced by the SS.

Clonk


Edit: I'm too slow, DB beat me to it!


Edited by J. Dan (04/09/17 01:17 PM)
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#2848161 - 04/09/17 01:29 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
Al Quinn Offline
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I'm thinking this info from Aspen from an email conversation we had might be interesting/helpful to some:

"However, your request has sparked an idea, something you can try at home without buying anything! Why not use your SS3 sub out into your RCF. This is actually a full range signal (Note: I purposely did no filtering on this line level output) which is the L+R line level signal we also send to our front system. Then turn your SS3 MID and HF levels full off, while pumping up the side speaker level to 100%. Then as you raise your RCF level to match the side speaker level...and it should give you a predominant RFC fromt signal (maybe a little level from the 8" woofer...but that may be nice to have anyway). level you will have predominantly a side speaker working. So if you crank your RCF it should be "close" to what you are looking for.

NOTE: Center Point Stereo works best if the front and side speakers are as close to each other (and also aligned in a 90 degree out of phase position). So you may find that turning the SS3 upside down, then placing the RCF on top would simulate the current front/side alignment and maximize the CPS 3D effect."
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#2848172 - 04/09/17 02:33 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
16251 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: hatricklov
Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?

Mid/Side processing.

dB


I get it, I thought there was some part of signal missing from main speaker so I was having trouble understanding what signal was coming out of the line out. So it's the 90 degree, 6 1/2" side speaker that makes this design work?

Most of the threads I read here for months/years was talk about getting more bass by adding a sub, which has a high-pass filter, etc. This new discussion is to use a full range speaker and no filters for the line out signal.

Does the side speaker have to work harder? Could you use a full range amp with a 12", even a small array, smaller than K8?
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#2848181 - 04/09/17 03:52 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: 16251]
Ledbetter Offline
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Does the front speaker just sum the L and R into mono, or does it only reproduce the content common to both channels? I thought it was the latter, which is my understanding of how MS recordings are made.
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#2848182 - 04/09/17 03:57 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Ledbetter]
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Does the front speaker just sum the L and R into mono, or does it only reproduce the content common to both channels? I thought it was the latter, which is my understanding of how MS recordings are made.

Ooh, good question! If the latter, then yeah, something would seem to be "missing" from the mono line out as well. Hmmmm!
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#2848183 - 04/09/17 04:14 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Ledbetter]
Grave Bryce Administrator Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Does the front speaker just sum the L and R into mono, or does it only reproduce the content common to both channels? I thought it was the latter, which is my understanding of how MS recordings are made.

I am also under the impression that it is the latter.

dB
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#2848185 - 04/09/17 04:40 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
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Maybe someone can confirm... try panning a sound hard to one side (or, if you're using a mixer, pan both side of the board that way), and see if anything comes out of the front facing speaker...

In theory, in an M/S system, it seems like nothing should come out of the front. In practice, I seem to remember when I played with the SS3, there was always signal coming out of the front, even if something was hard panned, but I can't swear to it.
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#2848193 - 04/09/17 05:14 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Grave Bryce]
hatricklov Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Bryce
Originally Posted By: hatricklov
Dave... what does M/S stand for? Mono/Stereo? You also mentioned M/S signal in one of your posts?

Mid/Side processing.
dB

Thanks... I had read this thread all the way from the beginning when I considered buying an SS3, just couldn't recall that M/S literally stood for mid/side.
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#2848198 - 04/09/17 05:47 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: hatricklov]
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Mid/Side can yield some other very cool audio tricks.

I have a stereo EQ can that can be switched into M/S mode, so one channel works on the center of the mix and the other channel works on both sides. There are a few compressors that do that as well. One company I work with (elysia) makes a stereo distortion/color processor (karacter) that has it.

dB
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#2848218 - 04/09/17 06:41 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: AnotherScott]
Bill Spencer Offline
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Originally Posted By: AnotherScott
Maybe someone can confirm... try panning a sound hard to one side (or, if you're using a mixer, pan both side of the board that way), and see if anything comes out of the front facing speaker...

In theory, in an M/S system, it seems like nothing should come out of the front. In practice, I seem to remember when I played with the SS3, there was always signal coming out of the front, even if something was hard panned, but I can't swear to it.


I believe this was discussed a while back in this thread, and answered by Aspen or maybe I discussed it with him on the phone.

The front-firing speakers get L+R. it is simple mono. I verified it with mine by feeding it two completely different signals. They were both present in the "center" speakers.

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#2848228 - 04/09/17 08:23 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
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#2848229 - 04/09/17 08:29 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Bill Spencer]
Ledbetter Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer

The front-firing speakers get L+R. it is simple mono. I verified it with mine by feeding it two completely different signals. They were both present in the "center" speakers.


A post of Aspen's on page 6 of this thread seems to confirm that both the front speaker and the sub out are L+R summed mono.
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#2848230 - 04/09/17 08:33 PM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Ledbetter]
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Originally Posted By: Bill Spencer

The front-firing speakers get L+R. it is simple mono. I verified it with mine by feeding it two completely different signals. They were both present in the "center" speakers.


A post of Aspen's on page 6 of this thread seems to confirm that both the front speaker and the sub out are L+R summed mono.

That's how I'd remembered it, but who can keep track for sure anymore. ;-) Thanks for the confirmation, guys.
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#2848299 - 04/10/17 08:15 AM Re: Head's-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back [Re: Ledbetter]
MalH Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ledbetter
Does the front speaker just sum the L and R into mono, or does it only reproduce the content common to both channels? I thought it was the latter, which is my understanding of how MS recordings are made.


An M-S recording usually uses an omni mic for the mid and something more directional for the side. Therefore the mid is not really what is common to both channels but the sum of the two.

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