Steve Nathan Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 One more time.... The Girl From Ipanema | Am/F |////| Bdim/G |////| Bb/G | Bbdim/Gb | Am/F | Ab2/Gb | Still funny but shouldn't that 2nd change be Emin/G7 Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 Oh, and deep breath time.... Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Steve (Nathan), You've violated two of the new rules of theory as established in this thread: 1. No extensions (you used a 7th) 2. Using Em would double the G None of that fancy stuff, country boy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 I'm so ashamed Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Steve, I think you are feeling that I'm directing all my statements at you, and believe me, I'm not. Just directing them at the idea that sometimes comes up here that a "real" musician reads music and uses notation to communicate with other musicians while anyone who "plays by feel" or whatever they want to call it is somehow much less of a musician and deserves no respect. It does come up in other threads; usually authored by good 'ol Dave Horne. But (without going back to re-read), I don't recall anyone asserting that premise in THIS thread; hence my confusion as to why you brought this up here. I don't disagree with what you've said above at all, but don't really see it's relevance in this thread. If anyone has been inflammatory in this thread, I suggest it's you when you said that my idea of the bottom line being how you sound is akin to bashing on the keyboard. Again (without going back to re-read), my point was this: Someone can be a great player without learning to read, but if one is capable of understanding a concept, what's wrong with discussing it in an effort to understand it better? Don't want to discuss it? Don't respond. Eric's response which you agreed to came across as though you both were saying, "aww....why expend all this energy discussing how the chord is spelled as long as it sounds good?" To those that don't just learn aurally, discussion of harmony and theory is a productive experience, and it came across like you were bashing it. If a person thinks of Bb7#11 in a different way, that does not make them less of a musician. If they can play it and understand why it sounds good within the context of the music they are playing, then great. So who's arguing with you? Please show me where in this thread that anyone is saying that "only readers and those that understand contemporary theory and harmony are great players"? Dave Horne is solidly on the side of notation notation notation. Someone here needs to balance that out. First, you are not the first, and nor will you be the last person to butt heads with cantankerous old Dave. Second, why did you feel it necessary to derail this thread with arguments that you had from a totally different thread? If there's something that someone's said in this thread that you disagree with, go ahead and make your points. All I'm asking is that you be relevant to this discussion. go ahead and call me a troll Your deviation from the topic of discussion is what made you appear that way. I'll withdraw my use of the word if you'll stay on topic. If you want to argue with Dave, send 'em a PM or an email, or at least wait until he says something inflammatory. It doesn't usually take long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Cnegrad, You've outlasted me. Let's just say you're right and I'm wrong. Have a nice day. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Dave Horne is solidly on the side of notation notation notation. Someone here needs to balance that out. Balance that out? I'm on the side of communicating effectively and accurately, aren't you? This is music - we develop our ears and our brains. The chord in question is Bb7 +11, 13 (with the +11, 13 in superscript) ... well, it doesn't have to be in superscript, I just like saying that word out loud ... and who doesn't? (You could also write Bb9 +11,13.) If you want to write that chord any other way, go ahead, it's a free world. If you want to show the exact voicing of that chord, you'll have to use [drum roll, a really loud drum roll] conventional music notation. (Why is notation, notation, notation such a problem, problem, problem?) Six pages for one f****** chord, who would have thought. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 See? That didn't take long... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Originally posted by Dave Horne: Why is notation, notation, notation such a problem, problem, problem? It's not a problem. But, it's also not the only way in my opinion. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latchmo Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 this is great I unofficially declare all pages on this thread to be called "rounds" from here on out... ...come on round 7 ding ding but wait 'till I get back - gonna get some popcorn for the show this is better than discussing football on the keyboard forum - unless anyone wants to discuss baseball!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bridog6996 Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Good God! This thread is still going on? Look what you did, Steve Nathan...... My YouTube Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: See? That didn't take long... When I see my name mentioned I cannot not respond. Now I'm going to open a nice bottle of wine and go back to the piano. Someone send me a wake up call when we get to page seven. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Who in the hell needs to see a Mike Tyson exhibition when the real party is over here at KC. Who woulda thought one funky little Bb chord would have this thread neck in neck with the Survivor Pool thread? Come on pagina numero siete! PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 Good God! This thread is still going on? Look what you did, Steve Nathan...... I honestly expected just one or two, maybe three replies at best. But it's been fun Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I'm just having so much fun reading this! Don't stop please. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 "the idea that sometimes comes up here that a "real" musician reads music and uses notation to communicate with other musicians while anyone who "plays by feel" or whatever they want to call it is somehow much less of a musician and deserves no respect." step... i think it's unfortunate that the general perception tends to be this way... and even more unfortunate that these "lesser" muso's get overly defensive and eschew all learning to their own detriment... "it has been MY experience that the better musicians I've ever met don't note read at all. I don't pretend that that applies generally, but in my experience, I've seen GREAT limitation with those musicians who rely on chord charts, lead sheets, sheet music, cheat sheets...whatever you want to call them. The best musicians I've ever seen couldn't read a note," granted that the cream will rise with out reguard to organized learning... but what about the "average guy" that takes your premiss to rationalize not learning at all... "when one took the time to explain music to me in a way that I wasn't used to thinking about it, I became twice the player I was in a short period of time vs. the amount of time I spent on traditional lessons." and for this i hope you are eternally greatful... and the point is that if viewed from the other end how many are prevented from benefittng from a different point of view because of some silly idea that they dont need to be able to communicate via these concepts... "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 The previous post was not directed to me ... but I felt the need to reply just the same. If you want to communicate effectively, efficiently and accurately, learn the language. Those who call themselves musicians and who cannot read notation waste so much time at rehearsals. I get paid by the hour and I don't like to waste my time for a four hour job with several rehearsals before the job. (Even if I were to be paid for rehearsals, I don't want my time wasted. You can buy just about anything with money, but time, once it's gone, is gone forever.) If you want a certain voicing for a certain chord, the language is already in place ... and has been for a very long time. It is clear and leaves absolutely no room for misunderstanding - it's called notation. There is no need for six pages to discuss one chord. If chordal notation is not absolutely clear in this instance, write it out. Learn the f****** language so you can communicate effectively, efficiently, and accurately. You'll waste less time. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepay Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Dave, I agree with you that notation allows the author of the music to tell you exactly what is intended and that if everyone in the room reads at the same level that it can be a time saver, but it all depends on the circles you're in. When my band practices, we just say stuff like, "Ok, we're going to work up Eminence Front by The Who. I'm sure everyone listened to it this week, and even though they start in Fm, we're taking it a half step down to Em." Everyone knows what to do and how to do it. If someone showed up with sheet music written the way The Who played it, then they'd be lost (assuming they didn't ALSO have the ability to transpose on the fly like the rest of us). Lest you think we're all just a bunch of rock and blues hacks who just play three chords, both the guitarist and I are classically trained. He has a BA in classical guitar, but fortunately for him, he can also play without sheet music. I also have both skills. Our drummer/main lead singer did music as a living for a while as a drummer, singer and guitarist, and our bass player used to be a session bass player in Nashville (though he prefers rock and blues). We want to discuss different voicings for a song that we've transposed (so there's no sheet music for it), then we just say, "hey, how about you put the G on the top..." or whatever. Sheet music has its place, but so does a deep understanding of music that allows for transposing, talking about different voicings, telling someone to add the 9th in there, because we can hear that they left it out, etc. While there will always be disagreements on which way is better, I think respect belongs in both camps. If you can play, then you've got my respect, no matter how you go about it. If you (not YOU Dave, just 'you' as in anyone) can't jam or transpose on the fly or know what to do when I tell you to drop the third, then you can't join my band, but I'll be glad to come watch you play at a recital some day, and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. Steve (Stevie Ray) "Do the chickens have large talons?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I know I'm from the Neatherworlds (or NeitherWorld) in terms of this thread but I feel like injecting here..... The great thing I think about reading or about being a very good reader (I'm fair at best)....Is that you can expose yourself to alot of varied musics and basically check stuff out..... Kinda like having a high IQ (no mine is not supposed to be over 140 so no Mensa for me just y MensaMensa..) it doesn't necessarily mean there are any new grounbreaking ideas in your noggen if you have a high IQ, but you can check out alot of good ideas faster..... But sometimes the "slower" people have the grounbreaking ideas, it's just their process is slower, we is complex creatures! I don't think you can codify any rules in terms of pure inate musicality, it is, as the education majors know, one of the 9 intelligences, some people have alot, some less, it's not linked to personality or mathimatical apptitude or waist size, breast or johnson size! Some people are highly musical, and have a high musical IQ, but for whatever reason, their "I/O", for lack of a better term is slow( they are poor readers because their congnative appitudes are slower compared to their musical one or they r lazy or haven't been taught to read, too busy or don't want too for alot of reasons musically or creatively) I think reading is important for our culture and craft as professional and semiprofessional players, to communicate and learn, but on a purely musical basis, I'm not so sure how important it is.....Some of the great composers I heard were poor readers. I like to read and feel it's important but on a purely musical basis, i'm no sure lb CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by Jazzwee: It's easy to get paid more. I just simplify everything to I IV V chords, with no extensions (and no voicing choies), add an attractive singer and we are all set.IIRC the recent UK #1 hit "Smile" by Lily Allen (terrible song IMHO) spends much of its time on the F7+ chord. Originally posted by Jazzwee: So I figured out that the culprit is all these complex voicings and extensions! Ban them and jazz musicians will get larger audiences. So this entire thread (5 pages of it) serves to deny jazz pianists their rightful renumeration. Stick to a plain vanilla Bb7. Ability to create/play "complex" music doesn't imply any ability to create/play good music... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by Legatoboy: Kinda like having a high IQ (no mine is not supposed to be over 140 so no Mensa for me justy MensaMensa..) it doesn't necessarily mean there are any new grounbreaking ideas in your noggen if you have a high IQ, but you can check out alot of good ideas faster..... But sometimes the "slower" people have the grounbreaking ideas, it's just their process is slower, we is complex creatures!It's more likely that someone of a high IQ is original. But... what "GROUNDBREAKING" ideas are to be had in music? (Or to put that another way: why is "originality" so often equated with "good"?) I don't think you can codify any rules in terms of pure inate musicality, it is, as the education majors know, one of the 9 intelligences, some people have alot, some less, it's not linked to personality or mathimatical apptitude or waist size, breast or johnson size!By "9 intelligences" you probably mean Howard Garner's *THEORY* of Multiple Intelligences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 why is "originality" so often equated with "good"? Because we've grown tired of the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: why is "originality" so often equated with "good"? Because we've grown tired of the status quo. Well, ignoring whether the "status quo" _can_ be substantially altered with a "musical" result (e.g., efforts to move beyond "tonal" music and their success or otherwise)--how can something that's not original be _bad_ (which is separate from whether I'm bored with it, otherwise a song I've heard 5000 times that was "good" becomes "bad" merely through overplaying), and why is something good MERELY because it's original? Yet I've seen this sort of idea time and again--not just with music, but also with technology. (And often erronously--e.g., something is bad because it's not "innovative"--when it was bad because of poor _implementation_.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Since I don't agree with those who feel that way, I have no idea. Originality in and of itself is not inherantly a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 When we hit page 10, Keyboard Magazine should just go ahead and publish this thread as an issue unto itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by cnegrad: Since I don't agree with those who feel that way, I have no idea. Originality in and of itself is not inherantly a good thing. Exactly. I think some people have become quite confused about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Sheet music, chord charts, etc. are to a musician what a sequencer is to a composer. It is a tool. The language of music was codified in order to allow those who do not possess the innate ability to just sit down and play it the opportunity to perform it too. Cats were making music long before they could write it down. Just as folks built things long before there were physics laws and formulas. Stepay, I have understood your position in this matter since a month or so ago when we last discussed it. Be thankful that you can do both, read and play by ear. Some cats would love to have both abilities. The bottom line is like-minded musicians usually find each other and/or the vibe conducive to their skill set. PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnegrad Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Originally posted by soundscape: Originally posted by cnegrad: Since I don't agree with those who feel that way, I have no idea. Originality in and of itself is not inherantly a good thing. Exactly. I think some people have become quite confused about it. As this very thread demonstrates, confusion is rampant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linwood Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 E+5+9/Bb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 ah, the status quo pops up it's ugly head.... what about our own personal status quo... about intergrating new material.... letting old things die ... our institutions that make us feel safe.... remember 'Marathon Man' and Laurence Olivere(sp) drilling into Dustin Hoffman's tooth... "IS IT SAFE" (alot of metaphore in THAT scene) personally I'd rather have seen Mrs. Robinson in the Olivere(sp) role but hey! (Is it Safe Dusty, kinda like a Dominatrix..) Well back on target... it has to be good originality of a high order to get the nod I think, but originality is good in any degree, in the very least for the individual I think... we do need to try, that's why we're here! I think you can be "slow" in process and more original than someone with alot of chop and hight musical IQ..... the variables in the human makeup are too complex! CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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