So what chord is this?

[Phil Aiken]

Another vote for Bb7(#11).

 

Bb7(#11) should be sufficient PROVIDED the harmonic context doesn't contra-indicate the natural 9 and 13. If that were the case, you'd be well served to specify the unaltered tensions.

 

If you wrote a jazz blues in F, you'd just write F7 for the I chord, even though the player would likely be adding the 9 and 13. If you wanted a #9 or something, you'd specify. Otherwise the basic harmony is assumed to include the natural 9 and 13, subject of course to the interpretation of the player.

 

But really - if you wanted a very specific, exact

voicing such as you'd write it out as such, either by notating it on a staff or with a more elaborate chord symbol.

 

I read a quote from Einstein last night. To paraphrase: "Make everything as simple as possible - but no simpler"

[Phil Aiken]

Edited.....duplicate post

[linwood]

All those rules are nice, but it really boils down to my ear at that moment and how shity the singer is or her vibe the night in question.

[Phil Aiken]

Oh yeah.....a point I wanted to make.

To me, a #11 and a b5 are not the same despite their enharmonic equivilence. Nor is an 11th the same as a 4th, or a 13th the same as a 6th.

This has to do with how the notes fit into the underlying chord structure and how they are supported (or not) by lower tones.

 

This is just how I understand and relate to it - I claim no great academic authority on the subject.

[cnegrad]

As someone else stated above: In the jazz world, it's commonplace to give a relatively simple chord symbol (Bb7#11), and let the musician fill in the coloration of his/her own choosing. In that case, there are no absolutes; the musician is allowed to interpret the chord coloration as he/she sees fit. Third or no third; it doesn't matter. Ninth or no ninth; it doesn't matter. It's up to the discretion of the player.

 

The exception would be if someone handed you conventional notation, where every single note is being laid out before you. Then I would play as written, until directed otherwise.

 

Sue, as I said earlier: People notate their chord symbols with different motivations. If it was the writer's intention to convey a specific voicing, then your C/Bb7 is fine. If on the other hand, the writer is allowing the players to voice the chords freely, then it's preferable to name the chord using it's function, which in this case is a Bb7#11.

 

RicBassGuy,

 

I can't agree with your assertion that it's _any_ kind of C chord. It's simply a IV dom7 chord using a #11. In this case, it's a normal Blues function. Bb7#11.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

As someone else stated above: In the jazz world, it's commonplace to give a relatively simple chord symbol (Bb7#11), and let the musician fill in the coloration of his/her own choosing. In that case, there are no absolutes; the musician is allowed to interpret the chord coloration as he/she sees fit. Third or no third; it doesn't matter. Ninth or no ninth; it doesn't matter. It's up to the discretion of the player.

 

The exception would be if someone handed you conventional notation, where every single note is being laid out before you. Then I would play as written, until directed otherwise.

 

Sue, as I said earlier: People notate their chord symbols with different motivations. If it was the writer's intention to convey a specific voicing, then your C/Bb7 is fine. If on the other hand, the writer is allowing the players to voice the chords freely, then it's preferable to name the chord using it's function, which in this case is a Bb7#11.

 

RicBassGuy,

 

I can't agree with your assertion that it's _any_ kind of C chord. It's simply a IV dom7 chord using a #11. In this case, it's a normal Blues function. Bb7#11.

Took the words out of my mouth, practically.

 

+1 again

[Jazzwee]

Just having fun here but when I first saw this post, I thought it was a question on "So What" chords!

[Steve Nathan]

You guys have exceeded my wildest dreams. So glad to be the source of so much discussion.

 

In the meantime:

C/Bb7 [Thumb] Who doesn't get it?

Thanks Sue. It may be unconventional, but it works for me

[guestuserguestuser.com]

I agree with cnegrad. To indicate a specific voicing, it could be written Bb7(9,#11,13). This could also be written a couple of other ways, such as Abmaj7(#5)/Bb, or C/Bb7.

 

Bb7(9,#11,13) would be my first choice, I think. Sure, it's wordy, but since it's a fairly common jazz chord, it's not that hard to read. I don't like Abmaj7(#5)/Bb as much, because, for me, it takes more thinking, it's not as 'immediate'. I like C/Bb7 even less, because it's unusual (but not unheard of) to see a slash chord like that, with a single note © on top, and a chord (Bb7) on the bottom - you usually see them the other way around, single note on bottom, and chord on top. I'd be thinking to myself "I wonder if that's a copying error, I wonder if he/she really means Bb7/C?". It's ok, but not as easy to read.

 

Bb7(#11), or Bb9(#11), or Bb13(#11), or even just plain Bb7 would be ok, but as cnegrad points out, they don't explicitly indicate a voicing as much.

 

Which one to use depends on the context, and the desired result. It's all good.

[Jazz+]

I will assert that whether it is written Bb7 #11 or Bb7 +4 is irrelevant.

 

C/Bb7 is just another way of indicating Bb7 #11 by playing Upper Structure II (C triad) over Bb7.

It's Lydian Dominant harmony: the 4th mode in Melodic Minor.

 

We are talking the ABCs of jazz harmony here.

 

For practical purposes, these are all symbols for the same jazz chord:

 

Bb7 #11

 

Bb7 +4

 

C/Bb7

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

I will assert that whether it is written Bb7 #11 or Bb7 +4 is irrelevant.

 

And C/Bb7 is just another way of indicating the Upper Structure II © triad played over Bb7

It's Lydian Dominant harmony (4th mode of Melodic Minor stuff)

 

We are talking the ABCs of jazz here...

I don't like Bb7+4. Bb7(#11), yes, Bb7(b5), yes, and maybe even Bb7(#4). But +4 is too vague - does it mean sharp? augmented? does it mean you "add a fourth" to a Bb7 chord? See what I mean?

 

There's no need to add new, confusing symbols to the lexicon. We already have the symbols b and #, those are good enough. The + symbol has come into usage in place of "aug" as meaning augmented, as in (and only as in) 'augmented fifth'. That's bad enough, let's not let it go beyond that. Otherwise, what will you do when you see Bb+9? You won't know whether to play an Bbaug7(9), or a Bb7(#9).

 

I would assert that there is a difference between Bb7(b5) and Bb7(#11). The 5 is five notes above the root, and and 11 is 11 notes above the root. A b5 is an augmented fifth below a ninth, whereas a #11 is a major third above a ninth. Functionally there's not much difference, but voicing-wise, there is a difference.

 

Yes, of course this is basic upper structure jazz harmony stuff, but that's not the point being discussed. We're discussing how to (and whether to) notate a chord to get a specific voicing.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

I can't agree with your assertion that it's _any_ kind of C chord. It's simply a IV dom7 chord using a #11. In this case, it's a normal Blues function. Bb7#11.

Yes, that makes sense. I IV I I to end the phrase. And I agree it sounds more like a IV than a V (going by memory). I should have paid more attention to my "ear" than just abstracting on the notes. Thanks!

 

 

If you don't mind a little OT: in a more general sense, although an ending like I IV I V might work if the next phrase started on the tonic again, this song goes back to a ii V I, so the tonic is a better lead in?

I IV I V ii V I I   <-- not so good
I IV I I ii V I I   <-- good

I IV I V I IV I I   <-- good
I IV I I I IV I I   <-- not so good 

Obviously in the second case I'm thinking in terms of the venerable 12-bar blues, which would typically end a phrase with V IV I V (or some variation thereof).

 

Alternatively, would you consider a substitution on the I IV I I phrase ending in "At Last", and if so, what would it be? Or would it be more appropriate to simply extend the chords?

[Jazzwee]

if you have 4 chords you want to fit in, it would be better to use vi-ii-V-I (or their tritone subs).

[kanker.]

Originally posted by linwood:

All those rules are nice, but it really boils down to my ear at that moment and how shity the singer is or her vibe the night in question.

Thank you. This is by far and away the truest statement in this entire thread.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Originally posted by cnegrad:

[qb] Alternatively, would you consider a substitution on the I IV I I phrase ending in "At Last", and if so, what would it be? Or would it be more appropriate to simply extend the chords?

I assume you're talking about the turnaround going into the bridge? The most common substitutions in this case would be | I IV | I bii dim | or | I IV | I VI7 | or | I IV | iii VI7 | or | I IV | III7 VI7 | although the possibilities are really rather endless.

[Jazz+]

C7 #9 and C7 #11 is also written C7 +9 and C7 +11

They are two common ways of expressing the same things.

 

C7 +5 is often shortened to just C7 +

 

Mark Levine writes Bb7 +11 in his books,

not Bb7 #11

 

Don't forget the 11th and the 4th are the same note. Lydian indicates a raised 4th degree, as in "Lydian Dominant".

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Mark Levine writes Bb7 +11 in his books,

not Bb7 #11

Then Mark Levine is wrong.

 

Oh, by the way, I just checked: in the Jazz Theory Book, he uses #11. In the Jazz Piano Book, he uses +11. In the Jazz Piano book, he uses + for #, but he doesn't use - for b. He's inconsistent. And he's wrong, in my opinion.

[Steve Nathan]

Really enjoying this now, but as a reminder:

 

Discussions of possible substitutions are interesting, but the original poster asked for the chords from the original Etta James recording . In spite of what has been posted by many, the second change in the turn to the bridge is not a IV or a Bb or any of the many sub suggestions. It is the Bb(#11/13) (or whatever you prefer to call those notes).

At the end of the day, I'm surprised that in reply to Mojazz's request, no one called this chord for what it was. And it makes me smile to know that whatever you call it, at my age, at least my ears and my memory still work

[Jazz+]

There is no absolute right or wrong in this matter, +11 #11 +9 #9 are all common good symbols.

 

I like the + symbol because I don't like seeing a sharp sign near a flat chord like Bb7 or Eb7

[Jazz+]

Originally posted by Steve Nathan:

Really enjoying this now, but as a reminder:

 

Discussions of possible substitutions are interesting, but the original poster asked for the chords from the original Etta James recording . In spite of what has been posted by many, the second change in the turn to the bridge is not a IV or a Bb or any of the many sub suggestions. It is the Bb(#11/13) (or whatever you prefer to call those notes).

At the end of the day, I'm surprised that in reply to Mojazz's request, no one called this chord for what it was. And it makes me smile to know that whatever you call it, at my age, at least my ears and my memory still work

.

I don't know what you are talking about. It is a

I IV I

 

| F Bb7 | F |

 

Adding +11 to Bb7 is an optional alteration.

Adding +11 to any Dominant 7th chord is an optional alteration.

 

.

[Steve Nathan]

I don't know what you are talking about. It is a

I IV I

 

| F Bb7 | F |

 

Adding +11 to Bb7 is an optional alteration.

Adding +11 to any Dominant 7th chord is an optional alteration.

There's nothing "optional" when the question was "what's on the record". Perhaps you did not read the previous thread, from which this thead sprang.

[Jazz+]

Steve,

 

I thought this thread had gone beyond just talking about a single voicing in Etta's cover of "At Last." The question was answered numerous times by numerous posters. I assumed that thread had shifted into a more general discussion of Dominant Lydian chords, there notation and useage.

 

I was simply pointing out that in jazz, +11 is always an optional alteration in a dominant 7th voicing.

 

Jazz+

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

Originally posted by learjeff:

But if I was trying to convey the voicing, I'd call it Ab+7/Bb, since "+" is a standard symbol for "augmented", meaning a sharped 5, and unlike diminished, the 7 is not implied.

Actually, i wouldn't use that symbol - you're implying a dominant 7 in the Ab+ chord.

Oh crap -- I should know better than to ever do this without keyboard at hand! Thanks for the correction.

[Dave Horne]

Two paqes for one chord. Amazing!

 

I'm repeating myself, but the benefit of writing out exactly the voicing you want saves a lot of time; there are no misunderstandings ... and you get exactly what you want.

[Jazz+]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Last

 

"At Last"

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

"At Last" is a 1942 song written by Mack Gordon

and Harry Warren for the film "Sun Valley Serenade" (1942). It was performed by Glenn Miller and his orchestra. The song was a minor hit for Miller, but was largely forgotten until it was covered by blues singer Etta James.

 

Harry Warren (1893 1981) was an American composer and lyricist.

 

Born Salvatore Anthony Guaragna in Brooklyn, New York, he is regarded as one of America's most prolific but least known composers. He married Josephine Wensler in 1917. They had a son, also named Harry (who died of pneumonia in 1939 aged 19), and a daughter, Joan. Warren composed music with Ira Gershwin, Johnny Mercer, Billy Rose, and Al Dubin. "Chattanooga Choo Choo" was the first gold record. Among his hits are "I Only Have Eyes for You", "42nd Street", "Chattanooga Choo-Choo", "Serenade in Blue", "Jeepers Creepers", "There Will Never Be Another You", "I Found A Million Dollar Baby", "The More I See You", "We're In The Money", "Lulu's Back In Town", "That's Amore" , and "You're Getting to Be a Habit with Me". Three of his songs, "Lullaby of Broadway", "You'll Never Know", and "On the Atchison, Topeka and the Santa Fe", won Oscars.

 

COMPLETE LIST

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Warren

 

 

-----------

 

The song "At Last" became Etta James' signature song and was the third in a string of successful songs from her Chess Records debut album At Last!. Upon the song's release in April of 1961, it became her second #2 R&B hit and crossed over to pop radio, peaking at #23 there. Despite its rather low pop chart standing, the song is well-known and is still played regularly on oldies radio stations.

 

In the decades since its release it has been covered by a number of artists, including Nat King Cole, Miles Davis, Celine Dion, Lou Rawls, Christina Aguilera, Joni Mitchell, and most recently Cyndi Lauper on her come-back album, At Last. The Etta James version remains the most famous, and is a favorite at weddings and wedding receptions due to its romantic lyrics and sweeping orchestration.

 

 

CHART POSITIONS:

 

Etta James version

Year - Chart - Position

1961 - Black Singles - Chart #2

1961 - Pop Singles - Chart #23

[

Cyndi Lauper version

2003 - Adult Contemporary - #11

2003 - Billboard Hot 100 - #63

[Jazz+]

Here is a link to a clip from the original recording of 'AT LAST' as performed by Glen Miller in the 1942 film "Sun Valley Serenade." (Harry Warren - composer). Notice the absence of the Bb7 +11 in the second ending of the verse.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Glenn-Miller/dp/B000089Y98

[linwood]

Jazz+, Thanks for the info on Harry. I had no clue.

[JeffLearman]

Folks, don't use "+" for "sharp". First, it means "augmented". When it doesn't mean that, it can mean "add" or "sharp". Way too ambiguous.

 

Finally, there is a perfectly good symbol for sharp: "#". Just no point using "+" for it.

 

Eschew obfuscation!

[Manhunter]

Jazz+ or should I call you Jazz# ,

 

I've always found your name confusing as I wasn't sure if you were Jazz Aug, Jazz Alt or Jazz #9,#11 or whaterver.

 

I would have to align myself with the # camp as I agree that the + symbol is confusing as I've always thought of it as augmented.

 

I did listen to a radio show recently that detailed the life of Harry Warren - fascinating stuff.

 

There may not have been a Bb7#11 chord in the Glen Miller version but then the #11 hadn't been invented in 1942 - anyway I thought we were talking about the Etta James version!

 

Dave#

[cd8]

Originally posted by linwood:

I like it if I wanna hear (above mid c)

 

lh Ab D F

rh G C E

 

brrrr linwood, that was a wicked chord I don't think I want to play it anymore