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So what chord is this?


Steve Nathan

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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Mark Levine writes Bb7 +11 in his books,

not Bb7 #11

Then Mark Levine is wrong.

 

Oh, by the way, I just checked: in the Jazz Theory Book, he uses #11. In the Jazz Piano Book, he uses +11. In the Jazz Piano book, he uses + for #, but he doesn't use - for b. He's inconsistent. And he's wrong, in my opinion.

+11 is certainly ambigous and #11 isn't. So yes, I also prefer #11
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I'm always amazed by how long these 'theory' discussions can go on...

 

I don't want to throw a cold shower on this heated thread, but just as as a friendly reminder: Please keep in mind that even if we reach an agreement on which symbol is 'correct' to express a certain voicing (very unlikely), other musicians/composers/arramgers/publishers will keep using a variety of symbols for the same voicing. The sad truth is, chord symbols are not standardized, so we better keep a flexible attitude about them. :)

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Originally posted by marino:

I'm always amazed by how long these 'theory' discussions can go on...

 

I don't want to throw a cold shower on this heated thread, but just as as a friendly reminder: Please keep in mind that even if we reach an agreement on which symbol is 'correct' to express a certain voicing (very unlikely), other musicians/composers/arramgers/publishers will keep using a variety of symbols for the same voicing. The sad truth is, chord symbols are not standardized, so we better keep a flexible attitude about them. :)

I agree with you - I've seen all manner of symbols on various charts over the years, so one has to be versatile. Still, I think that there really is a 'better' way, all ways are not 'equally good', in my opinion. But you're right, chances of everyone agreeing on a standard way are slim at this point, so best to be ready for anything. Still, I'll keep on expounding my own views on the subject when I get a chance.
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Originally posted by linwood:

Bb13b5

Thats what I'd call it too.

 

I just had to figure out this same chord on a Bobby Caldwell song one of my bands is learning.

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Originally posted by Jazz+:

Here is a link to a clip from the original recording of 'AT LAST' as performed by Glen Miller in the 1942 film "Sun Valley Serenade." (Harry Warren - composer). Notice the absence of the Bb7 +11 in the second ending of the verse.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Glenn-Miller/dp/B000089Y98

I also notice the absence of much swing, heh.

 

Dig the chords there at the top of the bridge.

 

EDIT - it does go to the IV though....

A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Originally posted by marino:

I'm always amazed by how long these 'theory' discussions can go on...

 

I don't want to throw a cold shower on this heated thread, but just as as a friendly reminder: Please keep in mind that even if we reach an agreement on which symbol is 'correct' to express a certain voicing (very unlikely), other musicians/composers/arramgers/publishers will keep using a variety of symbols for the same voicing. The sad truth is, chord symbols are not standardized, so we better keep a flexible attitude about them. :)

marino my man, don't you see? We ARE going to get it all figured out and standardized in one of these threads, perhaps even this one. Keep the faith man!
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Originally posted by Dave Horne:

Two paqes for one chord. Amazing!

 

I'm repeating myself, but the benefit of writing out exactly the voicing you want saves a lot of time; there are no misunderstandings ... and you get exactly what you want.

Not necessarily. While I can read music, and have been reading music since I was 4, I have never been a capable sight reader. No matter how hard I work on it, I'm just not good at it. If I have a chance to look over music before a gig or whatever, then fine, give me some notation, but on the gig, forget it. If it's that important, you'd better have a chord symbol there too. Notation does leave no doubt, as long as I have the time to process it.
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Not only does Mark Levine's "The Jazz Piano" book use +11 and +9 for alterations, so do the Jamey Aebersold play-along books. Levine and Aebersold are published best sellers. They are both widely recognized experts in the field of jazz theory. They have set a precident. It's not wrong to use + just because you don't like it.

 

+ and # are both common symbols for alterations of the 4, 9, 5 and 11.

 

All the same:

 

Bb7 #11

Bb7 +11

Bb7 +4

C/Bb7

 

( add is used for add )

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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When I write it out for myself, I even leave out the 7...just Bb#11. I'll fill in what ever else I want when the time comes to play it. If I wanted a guitar player to play it, I'd write C/Bb. That way, he can play a C and feel that he knows what I'm talking about. ( just kiddin' gtr guys)
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Originally posted by linwood:

When I write it out for myself, I even leave out the 7...just Bb#11. I'll fill in what ever else I want when the time comes to play it. If I wanted a guitar player to play it, I'd write C/Bb. That way, he can play a C and feel that he knows what I'm talking about. ( just kiddin' gtr guys)

I know you were just kidding about the C/Bb7.

 

But here's a question for the C/Bb7 advocaters:

 

If you wanted to put that chord over an Ab (i.e. 3rd inversion), what would you call it? C/Bb7/Ab?

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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

C/Bb7 odd

Depends. If you're dealing with music that is fairly polytonal, then it's not odd at all. Since we're talking about a chord from at last though, it would most definitely be odd.
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

If you wanted to put that chord over an Ab (i.e. 3rd inversion), what would you call it? C/Bb7/Ab?

You should check out David Leibman's A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody which is a pretty heady primer on that kind of stuff.
A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable.
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C/Bb7 is common practice

C/Bb7/Ab is not common practice

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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:wave:

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I wasn't asking a serious question - I thought it would be obvious what I meant, but I guess I'll have to spell it out:

 

One of the reasons C/Bb7 is not good is: if you wanted to write it in 3rd inversion, you'd have to either write it differently, or write C/Bb7/Ab - that is obviously really awkward.

 

That's why Bb7(#11) is better - if you wanted to write that in 3rd inv, you could write Bb7(#11)/Ab.

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Originally posted by Jazz+:

Floyd,

Bb7 +4 is not the same as the symbols used for sus chords.

+ means raised.

Well, there's this thing called math. + means 'add'. That meaning goes back a lot further than Abersold's appropriation of it.

 

In music, # means raised, b means lowered. Using + for # is an artificial changing of music terminology, promulgated by Abersold and the likes. Sure, I've seen it, and I know Abersold and Levine sell lots of books. I still think it's wrong. And, yes, I have seen + being used to mean 'add'. I know A and L don't use it for that, but I've seen it, which is only natural, since + already means 'add'. To change it's meaning to 'sharp' is confusing, in my humble opinion. I don't use the + symbol at all in my charts, except sometimes, to mean 'aug'. Usually, if I want an augmented chord, I write out the word aug, as in Bbaug7.

 

I also think computer notation programs have had a negative effect on chord symbol lexicon. That's because ASCII characters are not good for writing chord symbols. This leads to things like CM7 for Cmaj7, yuck.

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Well, we're now up to page three. You'd think there would be a better way to communicate music, wouldn't you?

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

It's called sound. ;)

You know, there are ways to notate sound that can be communicated when there are no instruments or stereo systems handy; it's called notation. I've heard stories that some folks can actually read notation the same way others read ... magazines. These are stories, by the way ... no hard core proof.

No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message.

 

In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments.

 

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Bb13b5
Well, once again without keyboard in front of me (or bottle in front of me, or frontal lobotomy, or something like that) ...

 

Seeing Bb13b5 I know immediately what we're talking about. For all the others I had to do a mental image and fiddle with it. If it's accurate, then IMHO it's the best simple description.

 

Oops, though -- once again, this has a dominant 7, and didn't someone say we need a major 7?

 

I gotta get to a keyboard!

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I suppose that technically, in that particular voicing, the E would be a #11, but it's easier for me to fathom it as a b5. I usually think of #11 when it's a major 7th not a dominant 7th, don't ask me why.

Live: Korg Kronos 2 88, Nord Electro 5d Nord Lead A1

Toys: Roland FA08, Novation Ultranova, Moog LP, Roland SP-404SX, Roland JX10,Emu MK6

www.bksband.com

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Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Originally posted by Jazz+:

Floyd,

Bb7 +4 is not the same as the symbols used for sus chords.

+ means raised.

Well, there's this thing called math. + means 'add'. That meaning goes back a lot further than Abersold's appropriation of it.

 

In music, # means raised, b means lowered. Using + for # is an artificial changing of music terminology, promulgated by Abersold and the likes. Sure, I've seen it, and I know Abersold and Levine sell lots of books. I still think it's wrong. And, yes, I have seen + being used to mean 'add'. I know Abersold and Levine don't use it for that, but I've seen it, which is only natural, since + already means 'add'. To change it's meaning to 'sharp' is confusing, in my humble opinion. I don't use the + symbol at all in my charts, except sometimes, to mean 'aug'. Usually, if I want an augmented chord, I write out the word aug, as in Bbaug7.

 

I also think computer notation programs have had a negative effect on chord symbol lexicon. That's because ASCII characters are not good for writing chord symbols. This leads to things like CM7 for Cmaj7, yuck.

Sorry,

 

By that logic +5 would be "add 5"

By that logic -3 would be "omit 3"

 

+ augements whatever note it preceeds

- diminishes or lowers whatever note it preceeds

 

+9 = augmented 9th = #9

+11 = augmented 11th = #11

+5 = augmented 5th = #5

 

These are interchangeable conventions. They are all widely published. Just because you don't like it does not mean it is "wrong."

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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I must be on the guitar player's forum :)

 Find 660 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

 

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Originally posted by RicBassGuy:

Originally posted by learjeff:

Oops, though -- once again, this has a dominant 7, and didn't someone say we need a major 7?

No, just root,7,9,#11,13.

 

Or, since we're talking about a specific recording: Bb Ab C E G.

DOH. It was the over-chord that was a flat-5 major 7, not the B. Or something like that. Never mind, move along folks, nothing going on here.
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