So what chord is this?

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Floyd, regarding your statement:

Oh, excuuuuse me, mustn't tell the precious jazz piano player what extensions to play!

It's funny that you put it that way. From where I sit, regardless of whether we're talking about jazz, rock, pop or any other genre (except classical), my interpretation has always been, "Sheesh; is the pianist so lame that it's necessary to spell out absolutely every_single_note for him from beginning to end? Doesn't he have a mind of his own? I doubt Steve would be thrilled to show up at a session and have a chart thrown in front of him where absolutely every note was written out. What's the point of hiring Steve Nathan if you're not going to use him for his interpretive skills?

 

Nah, with the exception of classical music, feeding keyboard players and guitarists note-for-note for whole tunes is rather pathetic if you ask me. (I understand using this method when necessary on parts where things are very specific, but never a whole tune.)

I'm not advocating spoon-feeding players all the time! Of course not. But sometimes, at appropriate places, I don't see any harm in a specific voicing, or seeing two or three extensions on a chord symbol. Try playing in a big band some time, for instance.

[cnegrad]

Then you have no disagreement with anyone.

[stepay]

Originally posted by latchmo:

If Harry Warren was still alive and you ran into him in a bar and said "Mr. Warren, I loved how you used that Bb7(9,#11,13) in "At Last"

and he replied " Whaduya mean ... the C chord with the Bb thingy in the bass"?

 

Would it change your opinion thought about the song?

or the writer?

or when you HEARD it being played?

EXACTLY! Or Pinetop Perkins or Jeff Healey or Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles or Eric Clapton or or or...

[Soultwist]

Originally posted by Steve Nathan:

In the "Etta James" thread, I gave Mojazz a chord that I call a C/Bb7, meaning a Bb & Ab in the left hand and a C/E/G triad in the right. I am perfectly comfortable calling this a C over Bb7, but it got me thinking about what do the "schooled" among us call this chord. Somehow Bb7/9/#11/13 seems like a mouthful.

I would write that chord as Bb7 9 #11 13 (no3)

[Soultwist]

Originally posted by Steve Nathan:

In the "Etta James" thread, I gave Mojazz a chord that I call a C/Bb7, meaning a Bb & Ab in the left hand and a C/E/G triad in the right. I am perfectly comfortable calling this a C over Bb7, but it got me thinking about what do the "schooled" among us call this chord. Somehow Bb7/9/#11/13 seems like a mouthful.

I would write that chord as Bb7 9 #11 13 (no3).

If there is no 7 included Bb#11 should do it.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Floyd Tatum:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Floyd Tatum, since Jazz pianists don't get paid much, they are certainly going to put their foot down on being ordered around, especially on how to voice chords.

 

My teacher once said to me -- "jazz musicians don't get paid enough to even get rehearsal time". So we deserve to be prima donnas at least when it comes to voicings (since that is all we're going to get).

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder you don't get paid enough.

Floyd Tatum, my sig explains all.

 

It's easy to get paid more. I just simplify everything to I IV V chords, with no extensions (and no voicing choies), add an attractive singer and we are all set.

 

I saw Kenny Werner this past weekend. Very sophisticated music. Fabulous time (for me). Audience? Small. I can name all the masters that play that I've seen play to these small audiences.

 

So I figured out that the culprit is all these complex voicings and extensions! Ban them and jazz musicians will get larger audiences. So this entire thread (5 pages of it) serves to deny jazz pianists their rightful renumeration. Stick to a plain vanilla Bb7.

 

And leadsheets, charts, notation won't be necessary and Stepay will be glad of the new world order.

 

[linwood]

So...if we use just a Bb7 chord on the IV, when we resolve, do I call it an F6 or Dm7/F?

 

Don't answer, please.....

[guestuserguestuser.com]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

It's easy to get paid more. I just simplify everything to I IV V chords, with no extensions (and no voicing choies), add an attractive singer and we are all set.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by linwood:

So...if we use just a Bb7 chord on the IV, when we resolve, do I call it an F6 or Dm7/F?

 

Don't answer, please.....

As long as they're in root position.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by linwood:

So...if we use just a Bb7 chord on the IV, when we resolve, do I call it an F6 or Dm7/F?

 

Don't answer, please.....

Tsk. Tsk. F6? No extensions please. F triad only. Extensions reduce income. It's a tried and tested formula.

 

No Extensions = FAME

Many Extensions = OBSCURITY

[ProfD]

I think it is great that these threads generate so much interest. Musicians talking about music....ahhhh.

 

It is a whole lot better than some of that sh*t clear channel is programming nowadays.

 

Root voicings, minimal extensions, maximum extensions, hair extensions, Alts, polytonal, chromatic spider runs, etc.

 

Call it whatever you like, just make sure that you play it right.

[ProfD]

No Extensions = http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~casondra/william_blake_narrative/blake_images/bald_head.jpg

 

Many Extensions = http://www.whoomp.com/media/data/2/thumbs/Chappelle_Rick_James.jpg

[Bridog6996]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I saw Kenny Werner this past weekend.

Was he with his trio, with Ari Hoenig on drums and Johannes Weidenmueller on bass? I saw them a couple weeks ago. It was siiiiick.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I saw Kenny Werner this past weekend.

Was he with his trio, with Ari Hoenig on drums and Johannes Weidenmueller on bass? I saw them a couple weeks ago. It was siiiiick.

Yup. Probably part of the same tour. I attended Kenny Werner's clinic too. I'm sure that's where he makes his bucks. Education (not Extensions ).

 

Watching Kenny play makes you want to stop playing piano. Like what's the point? I can't ever play like that. Ari is very entertaining on the drums.

 

Talking about my sig, Werner's music is truly complex. Harmonically, rhythmically and structurally. Too bad it can't be appreciated by most but I found the mixing of all of these elements created a nice play of tension and release (at least for me). For my wife it would have probably sounded like all "tension" .

[cnegrad]

I stand corrected. From now on, this is how I shall spell my chords:

 

The Girl From Ipanema

 

| Am/F |////| Bdim/G |////| Bb/G | Bbdim/Gb | Am/F | Ab2/Gb |

 

Thanks everyone for clearing this up.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

I stand corrected. From now on, this is how I shall spell my chords:

 

The Girl From Ipanema

 

| Am/F |////| Bdim/G |////| Bb/G | Bbdim/Gb | Am/F | Ab2/Gb |

 

Thanks everyone for clearing this up.

Now if you play this rootless, will a jazz musician play it literally (which would be an appropriate jazz voicing), or apply typical voicing rules to your new chord spelling and it sound like plain vanilla (reversing the voicing)? Interesting cnegrad, you have arrived at a solution to making jazzy tune have no extensions! The solution to getting fame!

-----------

Edit: Never mind I messed up. He only he triads on top.

[K K]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

(I wonder if non-jazzers will get this? )

And then you could have 9-note chords written as three superposed triads, like Bb/Cm/Db. Don't flame me, I'm hopeless at jazz.

[linwood]

Am7 G / F //// Bdim A / G //// Bb F / G ////

Bbdim Ab / Gb //// Am7 G / F //// Bbdim Ab / Gb

 

maybe too hip for the room though.

[cnegrad]

The Girl From Ipanema

Of course I now realize that the title wouldn't be acceptable, because evidentially we have to assume that if one shouldn't have to read music properly, then it naturally follows that one shouldn't have to read any written language properly either.

[dementedchord]

this has been wonderfull... amazing thread... i've been lurking and admittedly am a little late to ths dance but at the risk of throwing the proverbial monkeywrench... i tend to see 7 pitches available to me for all chords... in otherwords there's an appropriate 7-9-11-13 for every triad... which to use is of course detemined by the function of the chord ie. as a I chord the 11 is of the perfect 4th variety but as a IV it's a #11... so the only need to designate specifics is for altered chords... and the use of a slash is for showing bass movement in passing chord non-root movement type thing... FWIW

[cnegrad]

HEY MAN! Don't try and confuse the issue with facts.

[latchmo]

yeah ... good thread

so in the long run, it doesn't really matter how you notate Mr. Fancy Pants (Bb7#11 and all his aliases) as long as he gets played. And he IS a handsome fellow!

 

One day I hope to grow up and learn all about those long extensions and how to notate them properly, but for now I'll just play 'em

[David Loving]

I just write out what I can remember - usually just a shell. The extensions take care of themselves, usually a function of the melody - like from the ear to the fingers. Some of this stuff just plays itself. Who said this, Miles? Hell, man just play it and let them figure out what to call it later.

[Eric VB]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

I stand corrected. From now on, this is how I shall spell my chords:

 

The Girl From Ipanema

 

| Am/F |////| Bdim/G |////| Bb/G | Bbdim/Gb | Am/F | Ab2/Gb |

 

Thanks everyone for clearing this up.

Looks like what you'd see in a guitar transcription.

[Steve Nathan]

The Girl From Ipanema

The Girl From Ipanema

| Am/F |////| Bdim/G |////| Bb/G | Bbdim/Gb | Am/F | Ab2/Gb |

 

Now that's funny.

[stepay]

Originally posted by daviel:

I just write out what I can remember - usually just a shell. The extensions take care of themselves, usually a function of the melody - like from the ear to the fingers. Some of this stuff just plays itself. Who said this, Miles? Hell, man just play it and let them figure out what to call it later.

But, that's akin to blasphemy! You know if you mention playing by ear that really just means you can't read and don't really understand music or theory!

[cnegrad]

Steve,

 

You know perfectly well that no one is saying that. I'm getting the idea that you're just a typical troll that likes to be inflammatory just for the fun of it.

[Dave Horne]

six pages ... but who's counting ......

[cnegrad]

The NFL thread is up to page 20.....

[stepay]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Steve,

 

You know perfectly well that no one is saying that. I'm getting the idea that you're just a typical troll that likes to be inflammatory just for the fun of it.

1) That's why I had the little smiley face there - ...however, that HAS been said on this forum before, so that statement of mine isn't completely without merit. I think you are feeling that I'm directing all my statements at you, and believe me, I'm not. Just directing them at the idea that sometimes comes up here that a "real" musician reads music and uses notation to communicate with other musicians while anyone who "plays by feel" or whatever they want to call it is somehow much less of a musician and deserves no respect. If that's not your view, then my little jabs aren't directed at you at all. I really didn't even have you in mind when making that last comment at all.

 

2) Not a troll. If anyone has been inflammatory in this thread, I suggest it's you when you said that my idea of the bottom line being how you sound is akin to bashing on the keyboard. That sounds inflammatory to me (if I ever got all worked up about music theory which I don't). I'll just disagree when I see something I don't agree with and agree when I see something I do agree with.

 

3) If a person thinks of Bb7#11 in a different way, that does not make them less of a musician. If they can play it and understand why it sounds good within the context of the music they are playing, then great. Lots of ways to define "blues" -- could be 'Royal' or 'Navy' or 'Chicago' or 'Delta'. Same thing goes with defining this chord.

 

Dave Horne is solidly on the side of notation notation notation. Someone here needs to balance that out. I have respect for note readers (again, I am one of them), but I also respect those who can't note read, and for whatever reason, it has been MY experience that the better musicians I've ever met don't note read at all. I don't pretend that that applies generally, but in my experience, I've seen GREAT limitation with those musicians who rely on chord charts, lead sheets, sheet music, cheat sheets...whatever you want to call them. The best musicians I've ever seen couldn't read a note, and when one took the time to explain music to me in a way that I wasn't used to thinking about it, I became twice the player I was in a short period of time vs. the amount of time I spent on traditional lessons.

 

So, even though I KNOW there are GREAT musicians out there who think sheet music is the only way to go, I also know that there are ones equally as great who don't read a note, so when I see those musicians belittled, I respond. I never get worked up though, so go ahead and call me a troll if you like. Way more important things in life to get worked up over than music theory. I just find it interesting.