gigging with a heavy keyboard- your thoughts?

[Stokely]

Yeah as Po from Kung Fu Panda would agree....stairs are definitely a fearful enemy.

Fortunately I live in flat Florida, land of the retirees, so the rare multi-story structure I have to gig in has always had elevators, and buildings are generally newer and are easy to navigate.   I can't remember a single time in hundreds of gigs where I've had to bring gear up a flight of stairs.

 

If I owned a van, and if some of our stages were not so small, my threshold for size and weight might stretch to that Montage M8x.  Might   

[Ibarch]

I chose the Fantom 08 over the 8 purely because of the weight. I could have afforded the full Fantom and the extra piano and synth engines plus would have been nice. However I just couldnt physically manage taking it to gigs. 

 

Recently I've acquired a Fantom 07, sacrificing the weighted keyboard of the 08 for synth action. So far this has just been for band practices but I'm tempted to keep the 08 at home permanently and use the 07 for gigs as well. It doesn't seem worth the couple of days pain I'll suffer from shifting the Fantom 08, even though that is merely 29 lbs. I'm resigned to the 07 but if it this keeps me able to perform, it will be worth it. 

[ABECK]

We all should have just played guitar!   There, I said it.

[JoJoB3]

14 hours ago, LeesKeys said:

I'm planning to purchase a new workstation and have narrowed it down to two Kurzweil products- the PC 4 88, and the K2700.  Going by features, the 2700 would be my choice, except for one issue- the weight. At 52 lbs, this would be a bear for me to transport, especially considering that some of my gigs are solo.  The PC4, on the other hand, weighs almost half at 28 lobs. I'm wondering what you think about the weight issue. Anyone gigging with heavy keyboards? Hate that the weight factor is going to be the final deciding point in my purchase.

Is this really an issue, a choice between 2 decent keyboards?  You just said "you Hate that the weight factor is going to be the final deciding point".
Unless someone dressed you this morning you know what to do next I'm sure.  Kurzweil makes great products so clearly you're discerning...and it sounds like win-win with the lighter choice.

There's only a few actual dilemmas left in Keys Kingdom - real Rhodes or fake?  real B3 or fake? PC or fake (Apple)?
I'm rolling in a 500lb B3 again tonight

[Reezekeys]

Here is a concept I embraced a long time ago. I'm a piano player who switched completely to unweighted boards but instead of coming at it like it was a total drag, I plowed through and adjusted my playing force accordingly and guess what? Now I find it preferrable to a heavy weighted action keyboard. It didn't take that much time either. What counted most for me was the repetition speed I could achieve and the degree of "springyness"... some feeling of resistance that I could get on with. After that I just modulated my playing force downwards and things were cool. Of course nothing beats a well-regulated Steinway or Yamaha - those can feel like butter, and I love getting the opportunity to play them. However, weighted controllers - the ones I've tried anyway – just don't do it for me. I'll take my A800 anytime.

[LeesKeys]

1 hour ago, JoJoB3 said:

..and it sounds like win-win with the lighter choice.

 

Yep, just placed an order for the PC4 88

There's only a few actual dilemmas left in Keys Kingdom - real Rhodes or fake?  real B3 or fake? PC or fake (Apple)?
I'm rolling in a 500lb B3 again tonight

 

[Adan]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

Here is a concept I embraced a long time ago. I'm a piano player who switched completely to unweighted boards but instead of coming at it like it was a total drag, I plowed through and adjusted my playing force accordingly and guess what? Now I find it preferrable to a heavy weighted action keyboard. It didn't take that much time either. What counted most for me was the repetition speed I could achieve and the degree of "springyness"... some feeling of resistance that I could get on with. After that I just modulated my playing force downwards and things were cool. Of course nothing beats a well-regulated Steinway or Yamaha - those can feel like butter, and I love getting the opportunity to play them. However, weighted controllers - the ones I've tried anyway – just don't do it for me. I'll take my A800 anytime.

Also known as bringing the mountain to Mohammed.  I think it's fair and appropriate to encourage people to see how far they can go with this philosophy. A lot of situations that you think may be problematic without a weighted action may turn out to be ok. But there will also be those gigs on which you want to sound your absolute best.

[stoken6]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

real "elevator operator" – a human whose full-time gig was sitting in this freight elevator all day carrying passengers and stuff up and down. At 5PM he shut it down, locked it and went home

I love the idea that there's no demand for the elevator after 5pm.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[The Piano Man]

As others have also said, for me, variety is the key.
 

I currently have 

 

Kurzweil PC3a8

Korg Grandstage 73

Korg XE20

 

This gives me the options I need.

88 key behemoth that does it all 

73 key with pro feel and sound

Lightweight 88 with built in speakers 

 

The only thing missing is a smaller/lighter pro keyboard with good zoning/split/layering options… I might plump for the SK Pro or YC61 at some point. Either would be a very handy tool.

 

So, in short, if you can, build up a rig that gives you options to suit different scenarios.

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

I chose the Fantom 08 over the 8 purely because of the weight. I could have afforded the full Fantom and the extra piano and synth engines plus would have been nice. However I just couldnt physically manage taking it to gigs. 

 

Recently I've acquired a Fantom 07, sacrificing the weighted keyboard of the 08 for synth action. So far this has just been for band practices but I'm tempted to keep the 08 at home permanently and use the 07 for gigs as well. It doesn't seem worth the couple of days pain I'll suffer from shifting the Fantom 08, even though that is merely 29 lbs. I'm resigned to the 07 but if it this keeps me able to perform, it will be worth it. 

08 is actually 32 lbs 11 oz... 07 is less than half that! 

 

I'm okay with the compromise of playing piano on a non-hammer action, but as it happens, not on the Fantom-07.:-( I was happy with the Korg Liano as demonstrated here, and I like the Casio CT-S500... but if I"m doing a gig with the Fantom-07, I need something else to play piano from. In fact in that Liano post, the keyboard I paired it with for that gig was the Fantom-07.

 

43 minutes ago, Adan said:

I think it's fair and appropriate to encourage people to see how far they can go with this philosophy. A lot of situations that you think may be problematic without a weighted action may turn out to be ok. But there will also be those gigs on which you want to sound your absolute best.

 

Yes. I'd do a lightweight gig with the Liano or CT-S500 for piano paired with some other more capable lightweight board (like Yamaha CK61 or Fantom-0), and I'll be satisfied, but I'd still be at my best with something more.

 

8 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I love the idea that there's no demand for the elevator after 5pm.

 

Yeah, I guess sometimes a freight elevator is really intended for freight, i.e. deliveries arriving during business hours, and they're not going to pay an operator outside of that.

[Motif88]

Agreed…Fantom 08 at 33lbs. I had one and returned it for a Hydrasynth Deluxe which I then sold along with my RD-2000 to get the Montage M8x. I don’t play out anymore. If I did the Fantom 08 would have a keeper.

[b3plyr]

9 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

I am in the market for a second KW too within the coming months, got a PC3 76 that I plan to leave in the rehearsal space, and get another KW for home/studio. My first thought was also the 2700, but after consulting KWs comparison table, and understanding that the PC4 uses a later version of the Medeli keybed found in the SP4-7, that I also had before but sold because of the keybed, I have finally settled on a Forte instead, check the specs, see what ticks your boxes.

 

https://kurzweil.com/2021/09/02/comparison-chart-workstations/

 

Well, you will have to find a used Forte - it is no longer in production. Great keyboard, though. I gigged many times with one.

[Reezekeys]

6 hours ago, stoken6 said:

11 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

real "elevator operator" – a human whose full-time gig was sitting in this freight elevator all day carrying passengers and stuff up and down. At 5PM he shut it down, locked it and went home

I love the idea that there's no demand for the elevator after 5pm.

 

Not in that building. The area was zoned for manufacturing, not residences. Technically we were there illegally. It's what many musicians in New York City did in the 1970s and 80s: rent loft spaces like that, install bathrooms and kitchens so they could live there, and proceed to play music all day and night! A lot of the jazz greats of that era had lofts - Chick Corea, Mike Brecker, Fred Hersch and Sam Rivers are some of the names I know who lived in lofts.

 

I left out the part in my CP70-carrying story where I went back to my car and spent 40 to 60 minutes searching for street parking for my car at – least ten blocks away, where it was legal. Ah, the joys of living in Manhattan, New York City!

[mcgoo]

I brought the church's RD-800 home once to do some programming on it. As I was schlepping that thing upstairs to my studio, I remember thinking "there's no fricking way I'd gig this board!" 

 

With the advent of nice feeling 88 note boards that weigh 30 lbs, coupled with a Laptop / NUC / tablet, I see little reason to break my back these days. 

[Synthaholic]

On 4/5/2024 at 9:42 AM, Delaware Dave said:

PC4-7 (28 pounds)

PC4-7: 19.4lbs.

 

I found the PC3 very difficult to carry. A lot of rounded hand holds.

[Delaware Dave]

On 4/6/2024 at 1:54 PM, Synthaholic said:

I found the PC3 very difficult to carry. A lot of rounded hand holds.

Prior to my PC3 i was carrying a 72 pound stage piano, so to me it was a breeze to carry the PC3.  I still prefer the piano on that 72 pound beast and absolutely loved the TP20 keybed which is where all of the weight came from, but the days of carrying that beast are over.

[stoken6]

On 4/6/2024 at 3:31 AM, Reezekeys said:

I left out the part in my CP70-carrying story where I went back to my car and spent 40 to 60 minutes searching for street parking for my car at – least ten blocks away, where it was legal. Ah, the joys of living in Manhattan, New York City!

And I felt aggrieved that I had to park half a block away (must have been about 80 yards) from the pub for last night's gig. 

 

Interestingly enough - and bringing us back to the topic of this thread - I left my 36lb board at home for this gig because I knew parking wasn't ideal, and brought my 12lb "inconvenient gig" board instead. And of course I was a little unsatisfied by my playing. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Dave Keys]

The main thing with heavy boards is that if you put your back out, it becomes academic as you wont be playing any gigs!  I realised this last year so sold the RD700nx and Gator Slim hard case combo (86lbs/39kg) for a CP88 and soft case combo at 51lbs/23kg. 

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

On 4/5/2024 at 10:31 PM, Reezekeys said:

I left out the part in my CP70-carrying story where I went back to my car and spent 40 to 60 minutes searching for street parking for my car at – least ten blocks away, where it was legal. Ah, the joys of living in Manhattan, New York City!

And I felt aggrieved that I had to park half a block away (must have been about 80 yards) from the pub for last night's gig. 

 

To clarify, I went looking for a parking spot after I had carried my CP70 upstairs to my loft! That's just the deal when you live in New York and can't afford to garage your car. My loft was nowhere near a true residential area - there was no street parking near,me where you could leave your car overnight; you had to hunt for a space where it was legal, and that was always far away.

 

It's pretty much impossible to do gigs in New York if you can't be a "one-tripper." Once I had a stereo piano sample to enjoy playing (the Roland "Session" piano, ca. 1998) and my two 51 lb (23kg) Mackie speakers, that wasn't easy! Going to a super-light 61-key controller and computer helped a lot. Ditching the Mackies for QSCs helped more. Now I hardly play in New York City anymore - I'm just an old crank that wants the lightest possible rig for any gig I do!

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

It's pretty much impossible to do gigs in New York if you can't be a "one-tripper."

 

I'm a kid in the city (not NY)--down to not garaging my car due to cost, and it's actually really encouraging to read this, because I've been struggling with this for over a year now and thought it was just a personal failing of mine. I'm still looking for the best solution--probably need to invest in one of those fancy devices called "handcarts" or something--but thank you for sharing!

[Reezekeys]

Oh yea, "one-tripping" would not have been possible without my trusty Remin "Kart-a-Bag" collapsible hand truck!

 

 

Still - and to get a little back OT - a heavy keyboard would have been impossible for me to deal with. The hand truck held the speakers and an accessory case of pedals & cords. I balanced that with one hand as I traveled down the sidewalks and navigated curbs. My free hand carried an SKB case with the keyboard.

[Stokely]

On 4/5/2024 at 10:15 AM, ABECK said:

We all should have just played guitar!   There, I said it.

Ironically, our guitarist used to have the worst shlep other than the drummer (not counting the PA, which he owns).  Because of the PA and smaller stages, he has cut down over the years.  He still has this heavy coffin-looking case for multiple guitars (one at least for backup) which makes his load-in tougher than mine.   His rig when he joined was a big pedalboard with head and large cab, plus guitars and cable case.

Speaking of rounded edges, I've got a bit of GAS for a 73 key SV2 (or a grandstage if I saw a deal on a good used 73 key model, but I prefer new).   My biggest hesitation isn't the weight, which is fine...nor the limitations of the keyboard   It's the cool-looking rounded chassis, which does look cool but looks like an accident waiting to happen.  

[RABid]

I don't know how keyboardists in big cities do it. I started in a rural area, driving a pickup with a cover on the back, hauling a huge keyboard rig and an 18" 3-way EV cabinet. No problem for a country boy in a pickup. Even when I moved to Louisville, what I consider a small city, I was able to take my truck. But if you are in NY and using public transportation, that has to change everything.

[D. Gauss]

11 minutes ago, RABid said:

I don't know how keyboardists in big cities do it. 

 

Simple. Prioritize.  I ask myself, "what is the absolute bare minimum you can use to get through the gig?"  If it's a choice between gig or no gig, you'd be surprised how fast you can jettison gear.   

"can i use a regular chair from the club instead of bringing a bench/stool?"

"can i get by with the shitty, bent, rusted out, x-stand that lives at the club?"

"will anyone but me care that i don't have access to all my super nifty, cool sounds from a big rig?"

"will it kill me to have less-than-comfy, less than 88, non-weighted, piano action for a couple of hours vs. having no money in my pocket to pay the rent tomorrow?"

 

[ABECK]

25 minutes ago, RABid said:

I don't know how keyboardists in big cities do it. I started in a rural area, driving a pickup with a cover on the back, hauling a huge keyboard rig and an 18" 3-way EV cabinet. No problem for a country boy in a pickup. Even when I moved to Louisville, what I consider a small city, I was able to take my truck. But if you are in NY and using public transportation, that has to change everything.

My most portable rig was an Electro 3-73 in the backpack case, an X stand in my left hand and a Bose L1 Compact in my right.  I could easily hump that rig many city blocks without a sweat.  If I had to do that again, I'd have to find something more cost effective.  The current Electro is like 3 grand.  That's crazy!  I'm out.

[Stokely]

Public transport, and from what I could tell on my visits to NYC, a lot of older buildings with weird twisty/tight entrances and *dun dun dun* stairs and steps to deal with...

I complain about a lot of things living down here, but load-ins are not generally one of them.  That said, I ended up getting a cart because of those gigs where you can't get your car within a mile of where you need to be (like playing on the gambling 3-hour cruise ship out of Port Canaveral!)

[Adan]

Like everything else about living in a big city, if you love it, you do what you have to do to make it work. The sacrifice either seems worth it, or it doesn't. 

[D. Gauss]

49 minutes ago, Stokely said:

  NYC, a lot of older buildings with weird twisty/tight entrances and *dun dun dun* stairs and steps to deal with...
 

 

You got that right. Many, many, so many years ago, when i was in a band that had a little bit of major label interest/push behind it, (but ultimately went nowhere), we played the famous Ritz in NYC (now called Webster Hall).  We were out of state, and were told we could call up SIR (rental company) and request pretty much whatever we gear we wanted and it would be there for us. Yay! 

Naturally, being young and big-eyed, we asked for a full Ampeg SVT (head weighs 90 lbs by itself), marshall stacks, the whole wannabe rock star 9 yards.  Sure enough, after driving all day to NYC from nowheresville, we arrive at the RItz, and there was all rented our stuff, delivered to the venue just as requested.... except...delivered to the LOBBY of the Ritz, not the stage. The stage happens to be up a huge, long, 100 year old marble staircase that empties nowhere near the stage.  Boo! 

No fun doing that sucky schlepp even with my 19 year old body back then.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

Simple. Prioritize.  I ask myself, "what is the absolute bare minimum you can use to get through the gig?"  If it's a choice between gig or no gig, you'd be surprised how fast you can jettison gear.   

"can i use a regular chair from the club instead of bringing a bench/stool?"

"can i get by with the shitty, bent, rusted out, x-stand that lives at the club?"

"will anyone but me care that i don't have access to all my super nifty, cool sounds from a big rig?"

"will it kill me to have less-than-comfy, less than 88, non-weighted, piano action for a couple of hours vs. having no money in my pocket to pay the rent tomorrow?"

 

If I had to do a public transit gig, I'd probably go with Casio CT-S500. It's my lightest /smallest cover-all-the-bases, enjoyable option, and If no suitable stand/surface were available at the venue, I could always use its pegs to play it keytar-style so that eliminates the stand issue. Its sounds are "good enough" (and in some cases, surprisingly good). If you really need better sounds, you can get them from an iPhone/iPad, which can even be triggered over bluetooth. If there's no amp at the venue, my ZXa1 would probably do, though I might be tempted to look at even lighter options. A little Behringer B208D is surprisingly decent for most things, though clearly well behind what the EV gives you on piano or low end. But that would get my total travel weight down to about 25 lbs. An Alto TX308 would be even lighter, though I haven't heard that one myself.

[bfields]

100% of my gigs are in places with no stairs and if anything an oversupply of nearby parking.  But, also, as a hobbyist, the "gigs", as far as I'm concerned, are mainly a way to give direction to the practice.  It's the playing with friends part that I like, and that's always in somebody's basement.

 

Back when I had a bulky 55-pound RD500, I did that once.  It involved an extra pair of hands and a certain amount of worry about their walls.

 

Twenty years later I swapped it for something half the weight and started playing a lot more.  I should have done it earlier!