obxa Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Not sure if this has been posted before... (Their headline not mine) Arguably the Freebird-Stairway to Heaven of Keyboard riffs....but sill pretty cool article. Especially after hearing the H & O song side by side. https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/van-halen-ripped-off-hall-and-oates/ Since the duo had become one of the biggest acts in pop music then, Eddie admitted to taking the crux of the riff from ‘Kiss On My List’. It’s easy to see the similarities once you listen to both of them back to back since both songs are in the same key and have the same syncopated rhythms going back and forth between both hands. Despite the similarities, Darryl Hall had no ill will towards the Van Halen camp, recalling later, “It’s something we all do. Eddie Van Halen told me that he copied the synth part from ‘Kiss on My List’ and used it in ‘Jump’. I don’t have a problem with that at all.” Although there could have been some legal trouble, the influence from the soul duo gave the world a soft rock romp and a hair metal banger out of the same lick. 1 Quote Chris Corso www.chriscorso.org Lots of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan May Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 ???? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Woodward Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I’m not getting this…. 3 Quote Korg Grandstage 73, Keystage 61, Mac Mini M1, Logic Pro X (Pigments, Korg Legacy Collection, Wavestate LE, Sylenth), iPad Pro 12.9 M2 (6th gen), iPad 9th gen, Scarlett 2i2, Presonus Eris E3.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 First measure of Jump goes V/I to I. Kiss on my List has a pickup with V that arrives at I on the down beat of the first measure and then goes to V. That’s not “very” similar as the rhythm is quite different. And that’s where any similarities end before they even really begin. Inspired by the tempo, feel, vibe, sure. If they say so. Kiss also plays a fun game of drifting between Cm and C. Jump does not. 🤷♂️ 2 Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogs Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Some songs are blatant copies of others - and usually end up in court! (I'm thinking of George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord' and the Chiffons 'He's so fine' ..... or Richard Rodger's 'Mountian Greenery' and Lionel Bart's 'Fings ain't what they used to be'.. ) but the similarity here seems a lot more tenuous?.... 1 Quote Yamaha - YC61 - P105 - MOX6 - HC2 -- Neo Vent 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obxa Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said: If they say so. I agree, it's not literal but I see it. I think that basic shape of the I/V- V pattern in the chorus that he got inspired by with the different rhythm either intentionally, or perhaps not being a keyboard player being as comfortable with that rhythm. But yes of course once H&O go to the Eb and rest of the song not so much. Much of art is inspired by other art. Not that I'm calling Jump art If he hadn't said it himself, I probably wouldn't of made the connection, but that's the fun and interesting part. To see where the seed of inspiration comes from- at least to me. To this day still think a blatant progression rip is the main section of "Just what I needed" by the Cars- which is pretty darn close to "I want to hold your hand" by the Fab4. Quote Chris Corso www.chriscorso.org Lots of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzpiano88 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 5 hours ago, obxa said: Not sure if this has been posted before... (Their headline not mine) Arguably the Freebird-Stairway to Heaven of Keyboard riffs....but sill pretty cool article. Especially after hearing the H & O song side by side. https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/van-halen-ripped-off-hall-and-oates/ Since the duo had become one of the biggest acts in pop music then, Eddie admitted to taking the crux of the riff from ‘Kiss On My List’. It’s easy to see the similarities once you listen to both of them back to back since both songs are in the same key and have the same syncopated rhythms going back and forth between both hands. Despite the similarities, Darryl Hall had no ill will towards the Van Halen camp, recalling later, “It’s something we all do. Eddie Van Halen told me that he copied the synth part from ‘Kiss on My List’ and used it in ‘Jump’. I don’t have a problem with that at all.” Although there could have been some legal trouble, the influence from the soul duo gave the world a soft rock romp and a hair metal banger out of the same lick. Have you been drinking? 1 Quote J a z z P i a n o 8 8 -- Yamaha C7D Montage M8x | CP300 | CP4 | SK1-73 | OB6 | Seven K8.2 | 3300 | CPSv.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real MC Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 All I needed to know was that the source is a UK rag, where they delight in controversial articles designed to pit musicians against each other. Imagine how disappointed the rag was when Daryl basically said "I don't care". Move along, nothing to see here. 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Motif Max Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Okay, I'd say it's pretty far from a "rip-off" of any sort. It's more like "slightly inspired by". I mean, I hear it, but it's just sort of the "flavor" evoked by the first bar of Kiss on My List - that's about it. 50 minutes ago, The Real MC said: All I needed to know was that the source is a UK rag, where they delight in controversial articles designed to pit musicians against each other. Imagine how disappointed the rag was when Daryl basically said "I don't care". Move along, nothing to see here. As The Real MC said up here ^^, this is definitely someone trying to start a fight where there isn't one to be had. Interestingly, I noted that the video that Far Out mag posted in the article itself is a live version that has the CP electric grand playing a couple of little "pecks" before the real tune begins, and that definitely sounds a touch closer to the Jump riff format. Probably a case of the magazine trying to find a clip to back up their point a little more. But good luck trying to base a lawsuit on a riff that sounds vaguely similar to a live version of a studio track that doesn't even have that part in it - usually (always, perhaps?) these lawsuits revolve around studio tracks. I mean, bands do all sorts of things live with little riff snippets and stuff. Check out that clip here - just the couple of opening notes. Quote Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000 Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberGene Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I listened to them one after another and can’t find any close similarity 🧐 There’s some vague resemblance but so are most songs within a genre. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konnector Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 What a load of manure. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I've read a version of this before, without the sensationalization. It wasn’t “ripped off,” EVH just apparently told his friend Hall or Oates that he had Kiss On My List in mind as he noodled out that riff. It’s not a rip-off. I can sorta hear it in the intro, and it doesn't hurt that it's the same key and chords are voiced the same. But I actually think the non-musician reporters got this wrong. I think the part that EVH was remembering was what happens after "...of the best things in life." Those are held the same and have the same basic rhythmic structure as Jump. They don't change in exactly the same places but the similarity is more apparent there. Not to mention, it's essentially the "hook" of the song and would be the part someone would remember anyway. 3 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed A. Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 17 hours ago, Paul Woodward said: I’m not getting this…. Me too. I don’t hear the similarity at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElmerJFudd Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 How Will I Know must rip these songs off too. Except the tonal center is G. And the bass line isn’t a pedal. And there’s a Bm between the G and the C. And the C has the M7 in it. And the riff starts on the and of 1. But the tempo, feel and vibe is there, so… if I say so. Quote Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Jump has I, VI, V over a 1 pedal just like the first bar of "Turn It On Again" by Genesis (admittedly that veers off into less well-trodden ground in the second half of the riff) - but it's another example of the (perfectly normal) recycling of ideas that goes on in pop. Cheers, Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyRude Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 OMG!! It’s a complete and total ripoff, they sound exactly the same! 2 Quote Some music I've recorded and played over the years with a few different bands Tommy Rude Soundcloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 That headline made the whole thing dumb. Tons of songs use that progression over the I. Piano Man and Your Song from just before that same era come to mind. We're talking about the "three chords," the canon is filled with similar tunes. To reiterate: EVH did not rip off Hall and Oates. He just told Daryl Hall (I just figured out which one!) that he had that tune in mind when he worked on the riff. The backstory was that they were buds and EVH wanted Hall be the new singer in Van Halen. EVH was hanging around the recording session when they were working on this song, and was familiar with the tune. When he started messing around with his new keyboard and playing riffs, the one that became Jump was made with the general awareness of KOML. It wasn't taken from it, it just exists in its current form because EVH knew that other tune so well for other reasons. I'll have to search for the article that discusses this, I read it a fairly long time ago now. Or what feels like a long time ago by virtue of not being today. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin Funster Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I'll wait sounds more like your kiss than jump. Quote FunMachine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obxa Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said: the one that became Jump was made with the general awareness of KOML. I think that sums it up perfectly. Especially hearing more of the actual backstory. I'm also stealing "what feels like a long time ago by virtue of not being today" So this was fun and managed to not derail into flames. Never heard of Far-Out magazine before, was sent in a daily newsfeed. I guess it does smell a bit like " lazy Google journalism". Gave up most music mags long long time ago. Except for trades like our beloved Keyboard & EM when they were alive. Still enjoy SOS. But things like Rolling Stone's "top guitar player" and "200 greatest singer" lists, not too mention the whole R&R hall of fame... are best viewed with a metric ton of salt. Kinda like most You-tube "Influencers." Quote Chris Corso www.chriscorso.org Lots of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stokely Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Hell you could throw a rock and hit a pop song with the I-V-vi-IV progression in it, those are all way more similar than those two songs. If I hear a song that isn't comprised of those four chords in some variation I'm surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 I don't see it myself. To me, there's a vague similarity in basic rhythm, but that's about it. That synth lick from Jump, I don't hear it anywhere in Kiss, but maybe I'm missing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 still my favorite 1 1 Quote David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoken6 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 That Axis of Awesome vid should be required viewing for all "beatz, loopz and hookz" producers out there. Cheers, Mike. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Not even close, and I always notice when something rips something else. Now if you want to talk about Outlaw Pete - Bruce Springsteen and Kiss I was Made For Lovin You, then we have a total rip off, that is impossible not to notice how similar they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscapeRocks Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 52 minutes ago, JohnH said: Not even close, and I always notice when something rips something else. Now if you want to talk about Outlaw Pete - Bruce Springsteen and Kiss I was Made For Lovin You, then we have a total rip off, that is impossible not to notice how similar they are. Springsteen ripped off KISS? Quote David Gig Rig:Depends on the day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MathOfInsects Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 I mean...nah. Yeah, sorta-kinda, but nah. It's just a melody that walks up the minor scale. It doesn't even turn around the same way. On second thought, though, I guess that violin interlude is pretty suspect. It certainly seems more aware of the "original." I wonder if Springsteen wrote that line, or someone else arranged it, or the violin player just played it. In the latter case, it's entirely possible he or she had the Kiss tune in the subconscious. Actual lawsuits over this use an algorithm that includes exposure (did the artist have a reason to have heard the original, and how often would that have happened). It would certainly be hard for Springsteen and whoever else was involved in putting the track together, to claim they never heard that massive, age-appropriate hit by KISS. 1 Quote Now out! "Mind the Gap," a 24-song album of new material. www.joshweinstein.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamanzarek Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 The Cars "Just What I Needed"in addition to using chords from "I Want to Hold Your Hand" took the intro from "Yummy Yummy Yummy" by the Ohio Express. 1 Quote Gibson G101, Fender Rhodes Piano Bass, Vox Continental, RMI Electra-Piano and Harpsichord 300A, Hammond M102A, Hohner Combo Pianet, OB8, Matrix 12, Jupiter 6, Prophet 5 rev. 2, Pro-One, CS70M, CP35, PX-5S, WK-3800, Stage 3 Compact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnH Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Yes and Kiss didn't sue Bruce, it would just be one half billionaire suing another. Gene said they wouldn't sue. I remember at the time Bob Lefsetz's column saying "how could the producer (or anyone else) not tell Bruce how blatant a rip off that part is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o0Ampy0o Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I hear it. But when some people dig in and dissect it to show how different they are I think that is a different language. It is like the dissimilarity is in latin while the similarity is in pig latin. I don’t speak either but I can hear similarities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfD Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I'm chuckling at the exercise of dissecting a couple of 40 year songs.🤣😎 1 2 Quote PD "The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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